Why nerf collective unconscious?

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Collective Unconscious: Can now be canceled by actions that render one unable to act such as stun.

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Why? :/

I'm assuming this means Ravana's Bloody Fuller is going to knock out CU and that Down For The Count in things like Thordan Ex is going to knock it out now too. But was this really necessary?

CU already requires the AST to stand in a potentially dangerous location and give up doing anything for at least a server tic. Neither Sacred Soil nor Asylum requires a SCH or a WHM to put themselves in harm's way or to sacrifice any GCDs, and obviously neither Sacred Soil nor Asylum go away if the caster gets stunned etc.

So why this out of nowhere nerf to the AST bubble? I thought the combination of shield and decent regen made it more on par with Sacred Soil or Asylum in usefulness & since it couldn't be dissipated with a stun or anything besides a push back just further cemented its rough equality with Sacred Soil and Asylum in usefulness.

Hey M'illa Maxwell,

I am upsad because that nerf, too.

I know the Spell is a bit strong in PvP. And in that part of the game a good nerf. But not in PvE! In a lot o fights I use this skill for the 10% less dmg effekt. But sometime there are stuns before so this effect is lost for those Moment, when the big hits comes.

So I have a request to the developers! So make the "10% less dmg" effect from Collective Unconscious like the regen effect from the spell.

http://fs5.directupload.net/images/160414/yxagmrcg.png
I know its the german version of the Skill but the picture should show witch buff I mean from Collective Unconscious

To let the change a Nerf in PvP. The "less dmg" effect from Collective Unconscious is not long or disappear in PvP fights. (But that is the task of the balance team of SE)

And that this Idea is easy to realize the same in the way of PvP nerf of Dancing Edge. And the Collective Unconscious works in PvE the same way like befor the nerf!

My idea makes Collective Unconscious to a medium not more. The Buffs make the rest and can replace some skills from the SCH. (that does not me that SCH bad take care)

And I think Yoshi and the balance team thought is not so bad to cancel Collective Unconsciou with in the PvP with a stun. And let it it so because it had no inpact in PvE.

Pomelo Elmbrook thought the in the same way and thats not worg or so. But Collective Unconscious is not only a extra regen effekt! (look the comment below this one)


The best case to show it (your called M'illa Maxwell)"Spear of Fury" from the Thordan ex. If you are the Healer you get Stun. You can do nothing till "Spear of Fury" comes. In this Moment it was clever from healer that use Sacred Soil / Asylum or Collective Unconscious.

The problem is that you get stun and the 10% less dmg effect is lost.

And so situations can happen again. But time and new fights will tell.

I hope to get the understanding of all Healers and the developer with my request. Because so can Collective Unconscious in the moment not work so great in the PvE.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

Hey M'illa Maxwell,

The best case to show it (your called M'illa Maxwell)"Spear of Fury" from the Thordan ex. If you are the Healer you get Stun. You can do nothing till "Spear of Fury" comes. In this Moment it was clever from healer that use Sacred Soil / Asylum or Collective Unconscious.

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SCH/WHM can still do there bubbles though during that mechanic. AST wouldn't, the regen would persist for the 15s provided the server ticked to grant the Wheel of Fortune buff anyway...but the damage reduction would disappear.

Senseless AST nerf on one of our more unique abilities.

Well, I always thought it was a bit weird that a spell that required you to channel would continue channeling even if you got stunned and such. I can see why you'd want the damage reduction bit to stay even when you get hit by a stun and such, but I don't think it's a big deal balance wise.

To me this reads more like a bug fix or oversight correction than a true nerf. It's a channelled ability that should probably act like a channelled ability and it may have been technical limitations or simply greater priorities that left it in the current state. PvP may have bumped it up the attention ladder a bit but the change still feels logical and sound to me.

I think that concerns the change leaves the ability unduly weaker in PvE are also valid but there are probably ways to correct the problem that don't require putting it back in the odd channelled-but-not-really state.

Well to me if you're channeling a spell, and you get incapacitated in some way then it makes sense that said spell would disappear since you're now unable to actively channel it.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

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In a meta way, yeah it's a bit weird. But I disagree about it being a big deal balance wise. If you run AST/SCH, then ok whatever scholar still has sacred soil to throw around for damage mitigation, and if you truly need that extra regen at the same time there is also eos and whispering dawn.

If you have a WHM/AST pair in a fight, however, it is the *only* field damage reduction you have since you don't have sacred soil (succor and aspected helios are roughly equivalent though aspect. helios shields for slightly more iirc, and you definitely have no equivalent to deployed adlo). Being able to still have the shielding (and regen) up through Bloody Fuller / Chanhadras, Thordan's Spear phase or the whirlwind jump thing in Seph Ex was something useful and unique that AST brought to the table that made it a decent alternative to SCH before the soft nerf of better gear in those instances even without crit deploy and a fairy.

I think ASTs should be glad they still get to keep a bubble that mitigates AND applies a very potent regen. Under no circumstances does an AST need to stand there for 15 seconds in CU, so this argument of not being able to do anything is pretty irrelevant. The whole nature of Sacred Soil is to put it down for one heavy raid wide damaging move, as such an AST can do the same without wasting more than one GCD and they get a regen effect on top of that.

It's not going to be a game changing nerf, and ASTs are more than capable healers after their chain of buffs. There is no reason why they should still be getting special treatment on every move.

From a logical standpoint, I can see the argument about stun breaking a channeled ability - but arguing logic and realism in an MMO where you don't permanently break your body jumping off an insane cliff or other such illogical things is probably a bad point to tout, lol.

I imagine this change was definitely a PvP change and probably can't be separated from PvE like other abilities due to system restrictions so they made the change universal. Am I perturbed about it? Just slightly, but it's nothing I can't work around either. This is more of a minor inconvenience more than naught in my book.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I think ASTs should be glad they still get to keep a bubble that mitigates AND applies a very potent regen. Under no circumstances does an AST need to stand there for 15 seconds in CU, so this argument of not being able to do anything is pretty irrelevant. The whole nature of Sacred Soil is to put it down for one heavy raid wide damaging move, as such an AST can do the same without wasting more than one GCD and they get a regen effect on top of that.

It's not going to be a game changing nerf, and ASTs are more than capable healers after their chain of buffs. There is no reason why they should still be getting special treatment on every move.

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Hey Sage Kabzy,

The collective unconscious has got a longer cd. than the Sch and the ast musst stand still and can not mak anything else. Its okay that collective unconscious is so strong. The collective unconscious nerf was made a easyer way to nerf ast in PvP and not hard to made.

But the negativ aspekt vor PvE was forgotten. Thats not so hard for Diunal astros. But for a Nocturnal Astro its a hard nerf in PvE. And only some here play the Nocturnal Astro and gets nerfs in there PvE playment.

And its not to hard and make the "10% less dmg" like the regen buff and nerf this buff in pvp.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

From a logical standpoint, I can see the argument about stun breaking a channeled ability - but arguing logic and realism in an MMO where you don't permanently break your body jumping off an insane cliff or other such illogical things is probably a bad point to tout, lol.

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Well, I'm not really arguing this from a realism standpoint, but from the standpoint of the games own logic. It just strikes me as weird when something that would normally stop a cast or any action at all, would really not stop an ability that needs to be channeled constantly. Collective Unconsciousness itself doesn't suggest it should render you immune to these things and yet it just kinda ignores it anyway. It's one thing for a game/book/etc. to break the rules of our reality, but breaking the rules of its own reality is another thing entirely.

It should have been PvP only. I'm disappointed in this weird nerf in terms of PvE. It won't change too much but it means sometimes it will stop casting suddenly due to weird mechanics =-/

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

From a logical standpoint, I can see the argument about stun breaking a channeled ability - but arguing logic and realism in an MMO where you don't permanently break your body jumping off an insane cliff or other such illogical things is probably a bad point to tout, lol.

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The "It's Channeled" line of thinking is less about "realism" and more about system consistency. It's a magic spell that heals wounds and proportionally reduces damage, realism was out the window from the start regardless of it's interrupted by stuns or not.

When I say system consistency I'm talking about the way we interact with game elements as game elements. Just about every thing in the game that roots you in place and prevents other actions such as casting, object interaction,and certain items will be interrupted by a stun as well. This isn't demanded by realism but instead by well-established game play conventions across many games. If there was some spell that let you move around while casting with no mention in the tooltip it let you do so and without a trait or class ability that established it as being different, it'd be weird. It could be balanced and still be very strange and feel kind of off.

When I say the change is "logical" I mean that it fits cleanly within the framework of abilities in the game, and within the context of RPGs as a whole. Certainly the trope of "Stuns and damage stop casting/channelling" can be traced to trying to simulate "Realism" with roots in D&D but we're kind of several degrees removed from that at this point.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

And its not to hard and make the "10% less dmg" like the regen buff and nerf this buff in pvp.

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While it might not be hard to implement, from a balance stand point S-E probably wouldn't implement this because of the potential raw power this can hold. Could you imagine giving a tank Collective Unconciousness, giving them a 15s HoT for 150 Potency with 10% damage mitigation? Then you Time Dilation that to make that 30s long. Then you Celestial Opposition that to make it 35s long? Combine that with Diurnal Aspected Benefic (38s) and, heck, let's say an Enhanced Bole for 15% damage reduction for 50s on top of all this. It's a lot of eggs in one basket but that's a lot of healing and mitigation right there from a single person.

Also giving the party of 20s of 10% damage reduction (when combined with Celestial Opposition) while maintain the freedom to deal with any mechanics they want in those 20s would probably not be something S-E would settle with either.

I like the idea of packaging the 10% reduction with the HoT to get around the nerf in a PvE aspect - it's a smart way to do it if they would try to maintain it. But I doubt it'll fly due to balancing reasons.

[EDIT]

Realism is probably the wrong word to use on my part and I understand the rationale for gaming conventions too.

Funny enough, the ultimate counter point to "gaming conventions" and logic would if "S-E (or any MMO developed) wills it, they will make it happen, and nothing we can say or do will sway them". It's kinda funny when I think about it like that.

This wouldn't bother me in the slightest if the buff from CU was always instant instead of anywhere between instant and the 3 second server tick.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

While it might not be hard to implement, from a balance stand point S-E probably wouldn't implement this because of the potential raw power this can hold. Could you imagine giving a tank Collective Unconciousness, giving them a 15s HoT for 150 Potency with 10% damage mitigation? Then you Time Dilation that to make that 30s long. Then you Celestial Opposition that to make it 35s long? Combine that with Diurnal Aspected Benefic (38s) and, heck, let's say an Enhanced Bole for 15% damage reduction for 50s on top of all this. It's a lot of eggs in one basket but that's a lot of healing and mitigation right there from a single person.

Also giving the party of 20s of 10% damage reduction (when combined with Celestial Opposition) while maintain the freedom to deal with any mechanics they want in those 20s would probably not be something S-E would settle with either.

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Hey Ghishlain Pyrial,



The question would be is it so usefull to ignor the Combi. from cards + Time Dilation/Celestial Opposition. That option is to cut both ways.

You explain how strong the Collective Unconciousness+ Time Dilation/Celestial Opposition. (In the right way! Great)

If you use Celestial Opposition for Collective Unconciousness. You can lose it to buff you Light äther / Cards. The CD from Collective Unconciousness is not low for 2 min cd!
Only for 5 sek more Def? I am not quite sure if this would be a great deal.

If you use Time Dilation for Collective Unconciousness. You lose the the chance to extend Cards (until Bole). The CD from Time Dilation is not low for 90 sek. cd!
That can be a strong Combo. The problem is that your cards should have higher priority in raidcontant.

I belive its not so hard if you look that the Sch can spread his eye for eye and Schilds. And the Whm has got Assize.

I think the Master of the Buffs (I mean the Ast) should allowed to use this ability.

I can't think of a single time I've ever been stunned while using CU...so I doubt this 'nerf' will even be noticed by most people.

Honestly, I thought it already got cancelled by stuns.

When I first realized I could use it while stunned I thought for sure it was a mistake by SE. Now I suspect that they delayed fixing it because AST was already frowned upon by the community and giving it a nerf would only make matters worse. Now that AST is valued a little higher, I guess they probably felt it was ready for the nerf gun.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

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Erm... Yeah may aswell share my mega combo then >.>

Draw> random card> synasty> aspected benefic, swiftcast, aspected helios, use card or redraw > collective unconcious> use card> time dialation> lightspeed> aether minipulation> celestrial opposition> cleric stance> gravity spam for free

Enjoy ur massive healing and crazy burst damage
With crit/spell speed this combo is INSANE, especially if u pulled a bole/spear first which reduce all ur cooldowns or damage to tank

With this combo my HoT is ticking 4-6k every 3sec, i have infinite MP, and rapidly casting gravity thanks to lightspeed and spell speed i can get a lot more gravity off within 10secs, and yes i know about the 25% damage reduction lightspeed gives but who cares im blowing stuff up and not using any MP to do so

I have done this combo a thousand times, even got some players to turn and play ast because of how strong we are... As AST *use ur kit* is the only thing im saying

If u pull arrow throw it on urself, and just LOL and the damage u doing, if it was not for aether manipulation and our passive quelling strikes on sects.... I be a very dead ast

But this is for 4man content, in raids it depends what is going on at the time, CU is the strongest HoT in game and is *free*

Time dialation is super strong if u pull a bole if used with combo its *free* healing to the tank meaning more dps uptime for both healers

AST are the kings when it comes to healing overtime no job in game can pull a 4-6k hot (more if tank use coverlesance or on a warrior in defiance stance) i mean 20secs for full out dps? Yes please and if ur with a SCH.... It turns stupidly OP my highest HoT iv seen with a sch and his buffs is 8-9k every 3 secs none crit >.>

NOW u can scream nerfs lol

Hey Aimi Mei,

I am crit/SS Astro too. And you are right, its nice ;)

The Only thing is that this nerf is not great like it is. All nerfs in this patch are going to be in this patch because PvP and not PvE.

I am not cring that the bubble is cancel able. Thats okay, because in PvP an Astro can not stop in collective unconcious.That have to be nerf!

BUT in PvE it schuld be allowed to use use the Buffs from collective unconcious (Regen + 10 % less dmg) and not only the regen. collective unconcious is a 10 % less dmg buff spell, too!

If you look to all Sch. They can play with there Shilds very well.

So it would be great that Astros play in the same liga like the SCH in the same way buffing ;)

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

Well, I'm not really arguing this from a realism standpoint, but from the standpoint of the games own logic. It just strikes me as weird when something that would normally stop a cast or any action at all, would really not stop an ability that needs to be channeled constantly. Collective Unconsciousness itself doesn't suggest it should render you immune to these things and yet it just kinda ignores it anyway. It's one thing for a game/book/etc. to break the rules of our reality, but breaking the rules of its own reality is another thing entirely.

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Well. It IS called Unconsciousness. Perhaps it's called that because you stun yourself by being unable to do anything but that. It's like...giving yourself a concussion mid battle and blacking out to release the power of the stars within to protect all around you...then you wake up and ask what happened and why does your head hurt?

I think Collective Unconscious can also end with heavy damage as well (the same as spell interruptions) I got hit with a Fell Cleave just now in a PVP match and my Collective just ended, there was no stun no nothing it was just me and the war.
I'm going to be more watchful to see if it happens again in future games.

This is what happens when PvP nerfs bleed over into PvE.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

If I'm remembering right, the game describes collective unconsciousness as connecting the feelings of people together, as in their happiness and pain and such. So I don't think there is much focus on the user being unconscious, but rather the unconscious thought. I just don't really get the impression that the user is actually unconscious while using this move, more of a meditative state if anything really.

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I was making a joke :(

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Originally Posted by Krissey

I was making a joke :(

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I'm obviously no good at getting internet jokes unless they come with big images from some random meme generator. I could delete my post, but how do I hide my shame :(

I really don't like the change... its removing the usefulness of the ability in dungeons. usually when placing collective in a dungeon, its in the middle of a mass of AE. Often times best placement = eating some of the AE. And they were a bit stun/knockback/bounce happy in some of the trash fights... so now I'm finding the ability popping down quickly in 1/2 to 1/3 of the fights. And note I'm litterally just trying to tick it up long enough to give my tank the 10% down debuff usually.

Terrible design choice for PvE. Its made a very cool ability even MORE situational that it already was.

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

I really don't like the change... its removing the usefulness of the ability in dungeons. usually when placing collective in a dungeon, its in the middle of a mass of AE. Often times best placement = eating some of the AE. And they were a bit stun/knockback/bounce happy in some of the trash fights... so now I'm finding the ability popping down quickly in 1/2 to 1/3 of the fights. And note I'm litterally just trying to tick it up long enough to give my tank the 10% down debuff usually.

Terrible design choice for PvE. Its made a very cool ability even MORE situational that it already was.

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Hey Katrisa Ashe,

The Problem is that you can not make it stun able only in PvP but I understand you!

Because that I make the Idea to let the "10% less dmg" buff as a buff with a own timer and you can play Celestial Opposition and Time Dilation. (Not for PvP!)

So the bubble is like a Medium ;not more. And you have to focus in you Rolle as Buff Master! (Extent or not, that is the question!)

You saw in that thread there are con/pros for my idea. But so its okay to get stun in the Bubble for the PvE!

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Originally Posted by zuubatto

If you have a WHM/AST pair in a fight, however, it is the *only* field damage reduction you have since you don't have sacred soil (succor and aspected helios are roughly equivalent though aspect. helios shields for slightly more iirc, and you definitely have no equivalent to deployed adlo). Being able to still have the shielding (and regen) up through Bloody Fuller / Chanhadras, Thordan's Spear phase or the whirlwind jump thing in Seph Ex was something useful and unique that AST brought to the table that made it a decent alternative to SCH before the soft nerf of better gear in those instances even without crit deploy and a fairy.

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Well, I cleared those fights as a whm/ast pair but used CU at completely different points; that's probably a reason I feel different about this change. Hard hitting moves that actually interrupt you before they deal the bulk of the damage are way beyond rare as far as I can tell. That's why this doesn't look like a big deal to me.

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Originally Posted by Heilstos

The Only thing is that this nerf is not great like it is. All nerfs in this patch are going to be in this patch because PvP and not PvE.

I am not cring that the bubble is cancel able. Thats okay, because in PvP an Astro can not stop in collective unconcious.That have to be nerf!

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The move was never really that good in pvp to be honest. Not being able to cast a heal is a much bigger deal in pvp where the damage doesn't just stop when the boss decides to start his big aoe damage cast. They should buff it just for pvp if anything. I think the ability is fine when it comes to pve.

The shield from CU actually does stay for couple seconds after you stop channeling. Also for me it seems its fix not nerf, don't think it was ever meant to be able to stay up while stunned. So I don't really get why ppl cry over such a little thing.

The one thing that bothers me about this spell is that it should really be Collective Subconscious rather than Unconscious, based on the lore description.

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Originally Posted by KeairaR

The shield from CU actually does stay for couple seconds after you stop channeling. Also for me it seems its fix not nerf, don't think it was ever meant to be able to stay up while stunned. So I don't really get why ppl cry over such a little thing.

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Sacred Soil actually works exactly the same (as in, you'll sometimes keep the Damage Reduction buff for a couple seconds after it wears off), because the buffs are decided to be on/off based on server ticks, which is incredibly stupid.

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

Sacred Soil actually works exactly the same (as in, you'll sometimes keep the Damage Reduction buff for a couple seconds after it wears off), because the buffs are decided to be on/off based on server ticks, which is incredibly stupid.

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yeah its sucks when you put up sacred soil/asylum/CU it may take second or two to get the effect, but its handy in the 1 out of 30 fights when the "nerf" kicks in. I guess they can't change the bubbles to add the effect immediately or they just don't do it for other reasons?

I have cleared those fights as a WHM/AST pair as well, and I've used CU at a number of different points, but what pisses me off is that the change was utterly unnecessary; the move wasn't particularly OP, given the limitation that you cannot do anything else at all while it's up and need to stand in the thick of things, and it in no way conferred any undue advantage to AST over WHM or SCH. Each one continues to bring unique strengths and weaknesses. Instead, all this does is diminish the utility of an already selective use spell, especially if what I've seen people report about heavy damage interrupting it too is the case! (I cannot confirm this myself, having not yet put that to the test)

Even if being interrupted before the bulk of the damage goes out is relatively rare, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by KeairaR

yeah its sucks when you put up sacred soil/asylum/CU it may take second or two to get the effect, but its handy in the 1 out of 30 fights when the "nerf" kicks in. I guess they can't change the bubbles to add the effect immediately or they just don't do it for other reasons?

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I don't know, buffs/debuffs ticking in 3s cycles seems to be pretty core to their programming so I can't see changing that being easy. FF14 is the only MMO that I know of which does that, too, and it makes it feel really imprecise at times.

Related, but off-topic, suggestion: Celestial Opposition should be changed to a 6s increased duration instead of 5s, to align with the 3s cycle.

Was this even a nerf to PvE? I can't think of any current content that pairs AoE spike damage and a stun to make this an issue. Nothing to complain about at all.

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Originally Posted by Fufupel

Was this even a nerf to PvE? I can't think of any current content that pairs AoE spike damage and a stun to make this an issue. Nothing to complain about at all.

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I have some Examples (not the best, but they exist):


- Bismark: (last Phase)

I used CU at the Tank ,witch take the 2 adds camp befor the stun comes. Because the hot (befor patch 3.07 the heal) and the "10% def" because I get stuned.

- Thordan: (last Phase)

Ther I used CU if I get stun in Spear of Fury. To reduced the dmg from the Spear and heal. Problem now is that the CU will be cancel and you lose the "10 % def." Buff.

I know that someone here is going to say thats not great Idea to use CU. Maybe its true, but I want only show sitation where you could use CU in the past. And so Moment exsists.

And we will see what happend in the future :/

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Originally Posted by zuubatto

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Each one continues to bring unique strengths and weaknesses. Instead, all this does is diminish the utility of an already selective use spell, especially if what I've seen people report about heavy damage interrupting it too is the case! (I cannot confirm this myself, having not yet put that to the test)

Even if being interrupted before the bulk of the damage goes out is relatively rare, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

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I just think people are being a tad bit dramatic about the most obscure aspect of the ability is all.

Oh and that person talking about heavy damage interrupting the Collective Unconsciousness was talking about pvp. But for the sake of thoroughness, I went and tested this out in the Odin trial and it looks like damage, even when it's high enough (talking 10k+ here) to certainly interrupt every other cast, will not interrupt CU. Of course, damage interrupting spells in pve was really rare to begin with, unless you were tanking something you weren't supposed to be that is. I can't really test it out right now, but I'm going to guess that those few oddball damage interrupting moves (t5 fireball and the lb thing in Levi HM/EX?) also won't interrupt CU.

Edit: tested the spumes in Levi HM (low damage, but always interrupts if it deals damage), CU still stays strong. I'm going to go ahead and say that only CC effects and the like are going to interrupt the move and it doesn't get budged by just damage even in the special cases like spume exploding.

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

I don't know, buffs/debuffs ticking in 3s cycles seems to be pretty core to their programming so I can't see changing that being easy. FF14 is the only MMO that I know of which does that, too, and it makes it feel really imprecise at times.

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Not that I know the first thing about programming, but I don't get why beneficial aoes have to wait for the server tick, but damaging aoes, like fire puddles dropped in A6s trigger the instant you step foot in them or teleport through them. I don't really get how the premise is any different

They should at least trait CU.Give it a 15 -20% chance of the bubble remaning even after a knock back, a stun or just having to move.