All tanks have lost about 30% of their damage in PvP post 3.2 (estimate)

I don't know the exact numbers of the nerf but Pre 3.2, a full STR War had 797 Attack power and 820 with the party buff.

Post 3.2 I now have 637 attack power with the party buff, estimates to around 22% decrease of just attack power.

Now SE has also nerfed our damage bonus, if you don't know what that is pretty much every section (melee/ranged/caster/tank etc) has an increased flat %+ to damage, I estimate they took tanks from 10%+ to 0%.

Here are some before and afters of fell cleave, all under the same, perfect conditions (buffs) Pre and Post 3.2. The difference is about 30%
http://i.imgur.com/j0bcEYb.jpg

That's still decent damage.

The point of the tank balancing was to bring the divide between tanks damage together, and lower the Base amount so that tanks don't get confused about what their job is (no other job is required by the community to fill two roles). Yes it sucks for War that they are slowly being pulled off their throne, but the changes are healthy to the tanking meta.

In pvp specifically, War was a job that had decent damage and couldn't die easily, there has to be tradeoffs

Great work with the before and after screenshots, this lined up with my back up the envelope math (20% decrease from the VIT change, 10% flat damage decrease from the tank pvp damage bonus nerf).

Warrior was disgustingly OP in its own right and had no business as a tank to do 7.5k Fell Cleaves while having insane sustainability through HP regeneration AND mitigation from tank skills.

While I also hate the fact it was nerfed, as it takes away part of the fun of the class, I can't say it wasn't deserved in some part, much like the AST nerf or the upcoming SMN nerf.

Except that warriors have no mobility and can be cced and blown up by the enemy group regardless of "regeneration and mitigation." And 7.5k? We're talking about seal rock right? And without battle high?

Cmon now. And to even get a 5k plus fell cleave you have to use all cool downs and some dps had to be silly enough to stand still and eat a storms eye and full swing and wait around for the fell cleave instead of just running away.

Exaggerations.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The point of the tank balancing was to bring the divide between tanks damage together, and lower the Base amount so that tanks don't get confused about what their job is (no other job is required by the community to fill two roles). Yes it sucks for War that they are slowly being pulled off their throne, but the changes are healthy to the tanking meta.

In pvp specifically, War was a job that had decent damage and couldn't die easily, there has to be tradeoffs

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What is the "tanking meta" for pvp? hitting stun and meh pvp group utility with long ass cool downs?

I know why they did it. For pvp and feast. Totally made frontlines not fun though. Guess that doesn't matter since it's a casual pvp mode.

*for pve and feast I meant

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

What is the "tanking meta" for pvp? hitting stun and meh pvp group utility with long ass cool downs?

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If tanks actually stunned the people I had to tank it would make my healing life a lot easier since I can't kill anyone now because they took Cleric Stance away. That totally made frontlines not fun. :0

Hem... about -30% damage, but how many HP did you gained?
Also I have a question for WARs, now did you gain same/more/less HP with Equilibrium?
And with Second wind how many HP regeneration did you lost?

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Exaggerations.

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So can every other class out there, with the exception that they all have significantly less defense and defensive cooldowns, as well as mitigation and HP regeneration overall.

You DO realize in almost every 1v1 situation against other classes, spare the healers, Warrior came out on top in virtually every single scenario, right? That's not an exaggeration, that's a simple fact.

And of course you're using cooldowns. Every class uses cooldowns to reach its potential, are you somehow insinuating that because Warrior needed to use a few CDs to reach that level of DPS it's somehow more fair? All DPS classes are subject to reaching their potential through CDs, and some hits can not nearly be as high as a Warrior shitting out a 7k+ crit with Fell Cleave.

Most DPS could not even nearly obtain hits of that magnitude, even with cooldowns. Stop pretending like Warrior wasn't in its own level in terms of PvP. They brought party-wide utility, insane DPS, insane defense, and the ability to sustain themselves with very little effort.

Besides, who gives a damn about Frontlines? It's balanced for Feast, and in ANY 4v4 situation, WAR, AST, and SMN were admittedly OP in some situations and needed to be toned down a bit. You complaining about it means nothing otherwise. Besides, as others have stated, you also gained a shit ton of HP out of it anyway.

3k ish hp is hardly a "shit ton." And it's about as useless in pvp as it is in pve. We had enough hp previously. So no. Tanks gained nothing. It was a nerf plain and simple.

And yes, I think the change was made for feast and pve. I pointed that out. But people play frontlines too.

And about your 1v1 claim, I doubt it. But even if that were the case pvp is never balanced around 1v1 anyway so what's ur point?

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Originally Posted by Geologo

Hem... about -30% damage, but how many HP did you gained?
Also I have a question for WARs, now did you gain same/more/less HP with Equilibrium?
And with Second wind how many HP regeneration did you lost?

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I think I gained about 3k or so hp in pvp in dps stance. Hardly worth the 30% damage nerf. The extra hp doesn't translate to more survivabiity in any meaningful way. If you find yourself in situation where you will die prior, you'll die all the same here.


Equilibrium seems to heal less. I don't have numbers. Not that important imo cuz equilibrium was only ever useful for healing while running away.

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Originally Posted by Niroken

If tanks actually stunned the people I had to tank it would make my healing life a lot easier since I can't kill anyone now because they took Cleric Stance away. That totally made frontlines not fun. :0

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Youre kidding right? warrior stun is 3 secs against one enemy. Not gonna help when ur swarmed by 4 or 5 dps. I could mythril tempest but doesn't fetter ward negate knock back or something? Cuz tempest seems to sure miss a lot.

Warrior cc can't handle the number of dps in frontlines. And it won't even matter if ur hit by pain or deathflare or 10 summoner limitbreaks.

Only thing I can do is limit break counter or thrill of war to try and save u. Real fun gameplay amiright?

Nah the only knockback fetter ward will nullify is the one from fluid aura since it also tries to bind you. It won't block the other forms of knockback. Warrior also was king in one on one scenarios that's not really disputable (though yes it's irrelevant in a team environment). It was literally the only job as a drg I would consistently just run away from and not bother engaging if I found myself alone with, cause given all cooldown for both sides there's no way to bring that war down before he kills me unless the player controlling that war is incompetent

in reply to geo- Pre 3.2 about 11200 hp, post 3.2 15181 hp, equilibrium and second wind heal much less due to less attack power.

The real problem with this is that the dmg nerf also applies to Drk's and Pld's. War's could do with a nerf, and it was inevitable that they got one, but Pld's already had pitiful dmg output. This patch buffed them with the new potency numbers, but the dmg nerf puts them at par, if not lower, then where they were before.

Drk's are a different story. They're a little better off with dmg, given they have a higher burst, but they really could have used some party utility.

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Originally Posted by Februs

The real problem with this is that the dmg nerf also applies to Drk's and Pld's. War's could do with a nerf, and it was inevitable that they got one, but Pld's already had pitiful dmg output. This patch buffed them with the new potency numbers, but the dmg nerf puts them at par, if not lower, then where they were before.

Drk's are a different story. They're a little better off with dmg, given they have a higher burst, but they really could have used some party utility.

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I think damage is pretty equal across all three tanks now. At least darks and Paladins are according to Reddit.

And the nerf nowhere puts Paladins on par with where they were. Dey got hit with a 30% damage nerf bat as well EVEN with the potency changes

I like to imagine my weapon being made out of foam like one of those pool noodles.

Carve and Spit should just pop kitten emojis instead of damage done when used.

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Originally Posted by EdgyLatinName

I like to imagine my weapon being made out of foam like one of those pool noodles.

Carve and Spit should just pop kitten emojis instead of damage done when used.

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At least you can tar pit every bazillion years to support your party right?! Fun I know.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Tanks gained nothing.

And about your 1v1 claim, I doubt it. But even if that were the case pvp is never balanced around 1v1 anyway so what's ur point?

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Well, you're wrong, as this can be seen as a power shift. You gained HP and lost damage. 3,000 HP is nothing to sneeze at. It was a tradeoff. Suck it up, chico.

Lol, you've clearly never done any small battles as a Warrior. As others have stated, the fact that Warrior could fight any class on its own and crush them without difficulty as a tank was ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by TheWaywardWind

Well, you're wrong, as this can be seen as a power shift. You gained HP and lost damage. 3,000 HP is nothing to sneeze at. It was a tradeoff. Suck it up, chico.

Lol, you've clearly never done any small battles as a Warrior. As others have stated, the fact that Warrior could fight any class on its own and crush them without difficulty as a tank was ridiculous.

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Why would I fight in small battles in frontlines? Feast ain't out yet. And 3k hp for 30 percent dps and some heAling nerf is a bad trade. I'd wager my survivabiity was way better prior to 3.2.

This nerf also affects the tank solo and questing experience as well. They should have just buffed pally damage and preserve tank damage as it was

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Why would I fight in small battles in frontlines?

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You have never defended a node for your GC against people trying to ninja it while the main force is fighting for the extra node? From what you said earlier you don't seem to be the type of war tank that aims for disruption/distraction/bait nor do you aim to protect your healers since you say war does not possess the tools for this. Meaning you find your role to be kills and achieving battle high/fever then cause what else is there for you to do if you aren't doing the things previously mentioned? Not being condescending I'm just curious as to what you believe your role is in there. Cause If it is kills I find it very hard to believe you have never strayed from party to kill that one poor bastard you caught alone to get your high/fever. Small scale battles aren't the norm but they happen.

It sucks for tanks that they got nerfed but if anything I'm hoping this at least dissuades some people from being the 4th tank in the party when you desperately need healers.

I have had a 9k fell cleave hit to the face before when I was an Astro in pvp. It wasn't really fair when that's about a dps lb.
Or even having 2 wars use 5k fellcleave on you at the same time.

Here's a fact, my highest hit as warrior was 8436 crit on a near dead astro under a very specific condition. I had fever, not high, fever. I had full swing up, berserk, internal release, with a strength potion. No warrior ever is going to run up and out of no where and hit you for 6k+, ever. The end. It has to be worked for. Out of the gate as soon as the match started if I just infuriated, full swinged, berserker and fell cleaved, I would be very, very lucky to break a 4.8k crit. Meanwhile, SMN and MCH can instant do 5k NON crit with with what, a raging strikes up? Please somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I'm interested in actual numbers on that. But you know what, that's exactly how those classes should work, all 3 of them.

This unintentional intentional nerf really has my gears grinding. I wasn't confused about my job, I was the pusher, the first to go in and last to come out. I dont have enough fingers or toes to count the number of lives I've saved from single target melee lbs due to my tank lb (which now builds slower because of less Dmg output) or the number of lives i've snuffed out with a well timed fell cleave/ mercy strokes. But, I garentee you the number of lives i've saved pale in comparison to a healer and I promise you the number of death blows i've dealt are pethetic compared to any dps who's put in the effort I've put in.

As to your 1v1 warrior matches here's how they went, true and honest. I won a lot, i lost a lot Hell I even won 2v1 sometimes, but if you watch my yoytube videos, and I mean truly watch, you'll noticed the cd's I pop, and the cd's they dont pop. For all the 1v1 match ups I've won, I've equally lost that same amount and not because oh I had no cd's but because I was beat by somebody who at that time, in that scenario, was better than me. I never screamed and begged for a nerf because a class killed me. No no! I took my beat downs and used them for fuel to make me better.

If I could stress one thing.. True tanks don't give up on being tanks. You'll still see yours truely hacking away with an axe no matter how pethetic or how godly a warrior might become.

As to the rest of you pvpers, please keep pvping as long as it's fun for you! I remember when wolves den died because nobody played it, those were the darkest days of my ffxiv life..

I personally feel like the nerf was too harsh. Clearly they did this for Feast coming out soon, but what does this really mean for party comp? Paladin clearly has A LOT more utility to help the party during a 4v4. Cover, Clemency, Divine Seal, Protect, and Stoneskin, not to mention their stun spam. So not even counting pvp skills, PLD has 6 decent to very good utility skills to help a party in pvp. Warrior in comparison has VERY LITTLE utility. Sure Storms eye can help ninjas, and storms path is a fairly helpful de-buff with the 10% damage down, but what other utility does warrior even have? Stuns are non-spamable, so they require a lot more coordination with the other dps. Obviously more difficult than just being able to spam it yourself. Holmgang is helpful for pinning down people, but it can be purified easily and everyone can sprint now anyways. PVP skills provide more utility, but they have very long cooldowns and are often only able to be used once or twice in a short skirmish like wolves den matches. Honestly, warrior may have had OP dps, but that was one of the only and best things they contributed to the team. More HP is great for keeping yourself alive, but it doesn't help anyone else usually.

Where am I going with this? Basically that warrior is fucked for Feast. Who would bring a warrior on their team when PLD provides so much more utility? Before the nerf warrior was more of a valid choice because of their amazing burst, now its much worse. I may be overstating the issue here, as Feast hasn't even come out yet so who knows, but it honestly seems like an unfair change to me.

Note: I don't know jack diddly about Dark knight, so I have no idea how viable they will be for Feast or whatever else, that's why I didn't mention them.

Of course I protect my healers. With thrill of war and my limit break. Isn't that what I said? Or are you not able to read? And yes, I will chase someone down for a quick kill if it's safe. So what?

And if you're gonna talk about "small battles" let's define what it is. Can we just agree "small" is like 4 or 5 people smashing on each other? Ok, well yeah, I don't like to do that because I prefer to be with the main group benefiting the ENTIRE team with my limit break and thrill of war.

Your tone is condescending whether you intend to or not because it sounds like you never played a tank in pvp and your assuming things you shouldn't. Like for example, assuming I can't protect my healer while dpsing at the same time. I can. Or rather, I should say could, cuz the dps part is gone.

And you know what? I protected my healer way better when Icould actually kill shit that was trying to kill the healer instead of lamely using mythril tempest, then single target stun, then thrill of war, maybe holmgang, and then run around stunning the same target over (while the other 4 or 5 dpses whomp on the healer) and over BECAUSE THATS ALL I CAN DO to help the healer.

You talk as if tanks have got a full kit of utiities on short cooldowns designed to peel people off healers or protect them in some meaningful way. I wish we did. I think you don't get it. I wish I coudl be useful. I don't think you get that.

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Originally Posted by SainCheese

Here's a fact, my highest hit as warrior was 8436 crit on a near dead astro under a very specific condition. I had fever, not high, fever. I had full swing up, berserk, internal release, with a strength potion. No warrior ever is going to run up and out of no where and hit you for 6k+, ever. The end. It has to be worked for. Out of the gate as soon as the match started if I just infuriated, full swinged, berserker and fell cleaved, I would be very, very lucky to break a 4.8k crit.

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Seriously. People don't understand that very specific conditions have to be met for fell cleave to even reach the number's people are passing around. What's his face keeps tossing around 7k fell cleaves - bro, maybe I'm just awful, but I've never reached over 7k fell cleaves without battle high. And even to get battle high is a challenge in 72 man battles with everyone competing for kills.

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Originally Posted by SainCheese

1v1 stuff

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This is laughable if you honestly believe this. There is no way that you should ever lose a 1 on 1 against a melee like ninja, dragoon, or monk on warrior for any reason other than you had already been weakend or had blown large amounts of your cooldown prior to the skirmish. No amount of skill is gonna overcome the dps comparable burst the job possesed coupled with the dmg mitigation, high hp, and insane self heals the job has against jobs like the aforementioned ones which only posses the dps part of that kit. Perhaps the ranged may (and I stress may so much here) can kill you but only if they manage to keep their distance (because of war's crap mobility). Should that gap be closed they will get wrecked as well.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

circular talk

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I can read just fine but when the author of what I'm reading is making circular comments contradicting himself and complaining that he is helpless in terms of being able to protect their heal only state later on how he does indeed use some of his abilities to protect said healer it becomes difficult to follow. Look at your own definition of what "small" battles are and then read what feast is and maybe you will figure out why the job was nerfed. You honestly see nothing wrong with the job having that kind of dps, high hp, dmg mitigation abilities and self heals with the only draw back being it's lack of mobility for a mode that's gonna be played on a small map? It's one thing to want to play the job as a dps and as such want the dmg back but you even complained about getting the big heals back which is comical. Just play a dps if you wanna dps.

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Originally Posted by P4X0R10N

Except that warriors have no mobility and can be cced and blown up by the enemy group regardless of "regeneration and mitigation." And 7.5k? We're talking about seal rock right? And without battle high?

Cmon now. And to even get a 5k plus fell cleave you have to use all cool downs and some dps had to be silly enough to stand still and eat a storms eye and full swing and wait around for the fell cleave instead of just running away.

Exaggerations.

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Anyone can be CCed and blown up by the group. But lets face it - tanks are not the priority targets at all.

Tanks complaining that they can't deal a lot of damage anymore. Something is definetely wrong.

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Originally Posted by TriksteR

Tanks complaining that they can't deal a lot of damage anymore. Something is definetely wrong.

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This "Ololz tanks role is not to deal damage but to tank etc" mentality is becoming boring now.

This is a pvp post. Your typical answer tailor made for "str vs vit" topics makes no sense here.

In pvp you dont really have to aggro mobs you know nor can you position any boss.

The fun basically comes from spamming other alliances with stuns and eventually kill high priority targets.

In that way tanks role is much closer to dps role in pvp than in pve. Hence being able to kill others.

Also the pvp achievments (not the new ones) often come from killing people.

(Pvp rank 50 tank reporting in - i play VIT in pve)

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

This is laughable if you honestly believe this. There is no way that you should ever lose a 1 on 1 against a melee like ninja, dragoon, or monk on warrior for any reason other than you had already been weakend or had blown large amounts of your cooldown prior to the skirmish. No amount of skill is gonna overcome the dps comparable burst the job possesed coupled with the dmg mitigation, high hp, and insane self heals the job has against jobs like the aforementioned ones which only posses the dps part of that kit. Perhaps the ranged may (and I stress may so much here) can kill you but only if they manage to keep their distance (because of war's crap mobility). Should that gap be closed they will get wrecked as well.

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I'm assuming you have never 1v1'd a ninja, smn, brd? If you're on a primal data center I dare you to try and 1v1 a ninja named Shalua Lie. You'll eat every word you just posted.

Honestly, the tank role in pvp is taken by healers primary. So I can perfectly understand why ppl playing tank jobs are unhappy with these changes. PVP is not PVE. Enmity means nothing in PVP. Even more to that - tanks are the least priority target in pvp. That's why tank jobs need to have about same DPS as DPS jobs but also about the same survivability and mobility.

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Originally Posted by AshenStar

Honestly, the tank role in pvp is taken by healers primary. So I can perfectly understand why ppl playing tank jobs are unhappy with these changes. PVP is not PVE. Enmity means nothing in PVP. Even more to that - tanks are the least priority target in pvp. That's why tank jobs need to have about same DPS as DPS jobs but also about the same survivability and mobility.

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Absolutely.

PvPers are not like PvE mobs, they wont keep focusing you during hours even if you hit them with a wet noodle just because you are the tank.They have much more interesting people to kill (healers then smns then blms).

Hence the full tankiness/hp/mitigation thing has very little importance in pvp.

For me my role in pvp is more or less the same than melees with more CC (stuns basically) and a bit less dps thats it.

Nerfing tanks dps in pvp is wtf. Even though i think the 3.2 fending thing is perfectly fine in Pve for "your role is to tank" reasons.