The Current State of Specialist Actions

I'd like to know if SE currently has plans to rework the specialist actions or if they're currently satisfied with how utterly sub-par these things are. Given these were most likely an attempt at removing the omni-crafter requirement for making money at crafting makes it fairly sad to see how reserved they are. It seems like SE was afraid of Specialists being TOO good at crafting.

Satisfaction and Nymeia's Wheel are pretty much the only worthwhile actions at the moment mainly cause Satisfaction is a gimpy tricks of the trade and Wheel can sometimes be an 18 CP Master's Mend 2. Trained hand could have a big boost in potency, upwards of 250-300% given the requirements needed, while Miracle is weak and Innovative Touch is just so laughably bad.

I think the main problem with specialist lies with Whistle While you Work and Heart of the Crafter. Improving these will see to it that all of the others, with the exception of Innovative touch, having a much more reliable and powerful impact on crafting.

Finishing Touches mechanic needs to go, the fact you can have a craft fail because of RNG makes Whistle a risk and it only having a 50% success rate is mind boggling. The mechanic of increasing progress potency in stacks of 3 also would be removed. With that, Whistle would have the effect of Heart of the Crafter rolled permanently into it and the CP cost lowered by a small amount. This thematically goes with a specialist knowing how to really get the most out of their materials and be in a sort of comfort zone in their work.

Heart of the Crafter would then be reworked to extend the current state of the craft, as in normal, good, excellent, or poor, for the next 6 or so steps. Cost and requirements would probably stay the same but this would allow the specialist the ability to actively manipulate their whistle stacks rather than just relying entirely on RNG. Crafting at a high level is all about removing as much RNG from crafting as possible and it's kind of silly that being a specialist only increases the amount of RNG you have to deal with if you decide to make use of these abilities.

By allowing very strong RNG manipulation this would make crafting higher tier gear easy for people that don't have the money or time to level everything to 60. The new heart would let one easily spam precise touch which would quickly cap your Inner Quiet stacks. That gives Byregot's Miracle a place as well as offering reliable ways to get good Nymeia's Wheel activation.

This comes from a fully melded almost all 60s in gathering/crafting player. I'd love to see people able to enjoy crafting without feeling like they need to spend millions of gil and hundreds of hours just to start. Crafting is my favorite part of FFXIV and I'd like to see more people take an interest in it if only for 1 or 2 classes. Making specialist really feel special would go a long way in achieving this goal.

The easier, and probably better, way to fix the Specialists is to eliminate the current Specialist actions, and enable Specialists to gain, as normal (not in the cross class area) ALL of the 21 cross class skills that the base class does not provide, for levels 15, 37, and 50. Kill off the Specialist-only flag for recipes at the same time.

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Originally Posted by TheFanciestBard

Given these were most likely an attempt at removing the omni-crafter requirement for making money at crafting makes it fairly sad to see how reserved they are. It seems like SE was afraid of Specialists being TOO good at crafting.

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This is exactly what they were aiming for. Specialist actions were never meant to replace the traditional cross-class skills, only to provide a means to compete with omni-crafters at the cost of higher RNG. It's highly unlikely they'll ever compare to the original skills as that would remove all incentive to level any other Crafts and at the same time invalidate anyone who has already put in the effort to do so.

The only skill I agree should really be changed is Heart of the Crafter. With a high CP cost and no guarantee you'll even get a single Good out of it (Yes, I have gotten 0 Goods before) it's practically worthless for anyone who wants even a slightly stable rotation.

The specialist abilities work well under average RNG even for 2* crafts provided that you have the level 15 cross class skills, steady hands 2, some i180 red scrip gear, and maybe an initial starting quality of 1500-2000. The main issue I have with them is that you'll probably want to use Heart of the Crafter, making the craft a lot less predictable than using level 50 cross class skills and more subject to RNG failure. The Heart skill also consumes delineations, increasing the cost of each craft.

Heavy RNG based skills like Whistle While you Work are also harder to use than level 50+ cross class abilities.

Let's face it.

Crafting pretty much died with 3.0. Now all you can do is make gear for....other crafters. Specialist or no, interest for many players has evaporated. The fact there is no relevant battle gear to create kind of kills it for a lot of people.

Also, scrips are a nightmare and a ridiculous excuse of a time sink and artificial difficulty increase.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

Also, scrips are a nightmare and a ridiculous excuse of a time sink and artificial difficulty increase.

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I disagree. I find maxing my Red crafter's scrip trivial to do. Generally it take me under two hours. I keep a good stock of likely mats for them, and replenish much of that stock by sending my retainers out on ventures during the week. I can hit the top collectability tier using mainly NQ mats and cheap food, so I quick-synth most of the intermediate mats.

Having all crafts (except CUL) geared to L60 2-star stat requirements or better and waiting for a good gold-starred turn-in helps.

Trained Hand and Finishing Touch could use buffs, the rest are perfectly fine.

Heart of the Crafter makes things so ridiculously easy (can argue it's RNG based, but I've yet to run into a single Heart use that didn't give me at least 3 goods and I've done it at least 20 times by now).

Whistle, I was originally unimpressed with, but it's really amazing, since it refunds itself and then some when combined with Maker's Mark, satisfaction, Heart, Comfort Zone, and Nymeia's wheel.

I use Trained Hand when I have CP to spare but it could be better...

Innovative touch is perfect, it's a gamble move. Less chance to succeed, but way more quality progress if it does if you use a few hasty touches right afterward.

Byregot's miracle is great if you get an early excellent but don't quite want to give up all your IQ stacks just yet.

Finishing Touch, when you're lucky enough to chew through all of your whistle stacks, is garbage though. I'd much rather use Nymeia's wheel at 1 stack then let my whistle stacks hit zero and fall off. Maybe if it was 250% efficency and didn't use durability it'd be good?

Honestly, 2 star crafting is so easy if you're a specialist. I wouldn't trade most of these moves for anything at this time.

Also lol@scrips being called a nightmare. I'm sorry, but if you think scrips are in any way hard, crafting may not be for you. I cap them every week in less than an hour. >_> Two hours if I don't feel like buying mats and go get them myself.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Having all crafts (except CUL) geared to L60 2-star stat requirements or better and waiting for a good gold-starred turn-in helps.

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I hope the irony of this statement isn't lost on you - this is a thread detailing how the system that was intended to prevent the need to be an omnicrafter is failing, and your answer is "just be an omnicrafter."

Scrip grinding isn't very compelling as a progression mechanism, because it's too grindy, and the rewards don't seem worthwhile, outside of getting the DoH books. It doesn't matter how easy it is, it seems like it's fallen victim to the same arbitrary gating we've seen everywhere in 3.0 endgame, and like it was deliberately lengthened to draw out the progression for as long as possible.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I hope the irony of this statement isn't lost on you - this is a thread detailing how the system that was intended to prevent the need to be an omnicrafter is failing, and your answer is "just be an omnicrafter."

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Because of how the recipes are put together, if you don't like buying your intermediate mats, you need to have all crafts (except maybe CUL) leveled to 60 anyway.

And I do not consider myself an omnicrafter. I have four nicely-geared crafting classes (e.g. Craft 795 Control 723 CP 422), three that need food to make the required stats for 2-Star L60 crafting (e.g. Craft 718 Control 685 CP 418), and CUL at a mere Craft 665 Control 658 CP 418. But even as a CUL I have no trouble doing red-scrip collectables.

Fortunately for me, my wife is well-geared in my lesser-geared classes.

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Originally Posted by Sollux

This is exactly what they were aiming for. Specialist actions were never meant to replace the traditional cross-class skills, only to provide a means to compete with omni-crafters at the cost of higher RNG. It's highly unlikely they'll ever compare to the original skills as that would remove all incentive to level any other Crafts and at the same time invalidate anyone who has already put in the effort to do so.

The only skill I agree should really be changed is Heart of the Crafter. With a high CP cost and no guarantee you'll even get a single Good out of it (Yes, I have gotten 0 Goods before) it's practically worthless for anyone who wants even a slightly stable rotation.

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The incentive of leveling all crafts should be to be able to craft everything yourself, not to just be able to craft. If you just want to level weaver and make yourself pretty glamour gear or whatever, that's your choice, but having the option to at least compete with omni-crafters in that specific craft wouldn't hurt anyone. I recall hearing that specialist was supposed to deal with omni-crafting but no one is going to find it acceptable to have multiple attempts at 2 star fail because your RNG was less than optimal.

Not to mention the whole red scrip system was obviously another band-aid for people who aren't omni-crafters as well. You make gear, hand it in, and get stuff that's class specific upgrades to the 150 gear. No one who omni-crafts is going to touch red scrips outside of tools cause it's a waste of money you can use to meld out non-class specific gear and achieve 2 star that way.

All the changes in 3.0 hints at attempting to make it easier for people to get into crafting and avoid feeling like they need to level everything to 50 at least to compete in the ability to craft everything related to that class or make themselves a small niche market, except you can't unless you do all that still. Something has to change unless they just want to make specialist a "Pick this if you want to craft fancy items in this class" which it seemed to devolve into.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

The easier, and probably better, way to fix the Specialists is to eliminate the current Specialist actions, and enable Specialists to gain, as normal (not in the cross class area) ALL of the 21 cross class skills that the base class does not provide, for levels 15, 37, and 50. Kill off the Specialist-only flag for recipes at the same time.

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This would be terrible.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

The easier, and probably better, way to fix the Specialists is to eliminate the current Specialist actions, and enable Specialists to gain, as normal (not in the cross class area) ALL of the 21 cross class skills that the base class does not provide, for levels 15, 37, and 50.

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Just giving Specialists the skills Careful Synthesis II, Comfort Zone, Steady Hand II, Tricks of the Trade, and Byregot's Blessing would be enough. There are other nice cross-class skills, but these are the essential ones. If someone want any of the others, they can level the appropriate class.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Just giving Specialists the skills Careful Synthesis II, Comfort Zone, Steady Hand II, Tricks of the Trade, and Byregot's Blessing would be enough. There are other nice cross-class skills, but these are the essential ones. If someone want any of the others, they can level the appropriate class.

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Eh, having comfort zone and tricks baseline would be nice but then what would be the perk of leveling alchemist? And I think Byregot's Brow is enough for those who don't have carpenter, or at least it would be if it didn't require a good, but yeah. Having more of the necessary stuff being baseline would be great regardless.

Giving all of those abilities out would not only make Specialist a little stronger than non-Specialist, it would also still force the Specialist (if he was not also an omnicrafter) to obtain refined materials off of the board. Someone who specializes in Weaver, for example, should get all the other 21 15, 37, 50 cross class skills - but to make most things, he would still need to buy leathers, grade 1 dissolvents, nuggets, etc. off of the board.

Remember - the point of Specializations is to allow someone to take one craft up, without ever touching the rest, and still compete. To compete, anything that can be made HQ must be HQ'able. That pretty much requires the cross class skills. Oh, it's possible, with heavy RNG, to do it with the Specialist actions - but not reliably, which means, not in a manner that allows the Specialist to compete.

The *perk* to leveling up any other crafting class would be the ability to, y'know, actually make that class' stuff.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

The *perk* to leveling up any other crafting class would be the ability to, y'know, actually make that class' stuff.

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Obviously, but it speaks of unfairness for all the other crafts to have cross classes and have alchemist have nothing :P

Also being a specialist WITH cross class skills is still > having only one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I hope the irony of this statement isn't lost on you - this is a thread detailing how the system that was intended to prevent the need to be an omnicrafter is failing, and your answer is "just be an omnicrafter."

Scrip grinding isn't very compelling as a progression mechanism, because it's too grindy, and the rewards don't seem worthwhile, outside of getting the DoH books. It doesn't matter how easy it is, it seems like it's fallen victim to the same arbitrary gating we've seen everywhere in 3.0 endgame, and like it was deliberately lengthened to draw out the progression for as long as possible.

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Given the fact that the red script gear was supposed to be the causal alternative to hardcore melding of 2* crafts, I completely agree.
W/o every crafter and both gatherers at 60, it's a royal pain and very expensive to cap.

Sure, as an Omni 60 it's trivial to do. But having Omni 60 is not something I'd consider "casual".

Also, if you ask me, the 1 week gating is a bit overcooked. Esp once you factor in that you have to choose between buying gear or mats.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

Obviously, but it speaks of unfairness for all the other crafts to have cross classes and have alchemist have nothing :P

Also being a specialist WITH cross class skills is still > having only one or the other.

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I know that your comment had been a response to a comment narrowing my suggestion down, but that inherent unfairness is why I say give all 21 of the other class' 15, 37, and 50 cross class skills. No class is left out, it enhances the power of being a Specialist over being an omnicrafter (and let's face it, someone who specializes in one thing *should* be better at it than someone who does everything), but still requires leveling those other classes if self-sufficiency, the ability to produce the refined materials, is desired.

A Specialist should not have Specialist-only recipes. A Specialist should have an easier time at producing the same goods as the generalist. Specialists were made to allow those with only one crafting class to compete with the omnicrafter. Having no means, or limited means, of producing the refined materials for a recipe would be balanced by having access to all of the cross class skills as though they were regular skills. That, combined with the elimination of Specailist-only recipes (which prevent the very competition with the Omnicrafter that Specialization was intended to bring about), would put the Specialist and the Omnicrafter on even footing.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Specialists were made to allow those with only one crafting class to compete with the omnicrafter.

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From Letter from the Producer Live XX:

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

(translation of Yoshi-P's answer) There will be certain actions that you can only use while you are a specialist, but even if you do not become a specialist, you’ll still be able to take all of the Disciples of the Hand classes to level 60.

While I said that the concept for crafting up until now was such that it’d be fine to just level up any one class, the development team is aware that actions like Byregot's Blessing are a necessity, and that leveling all classes is required to use higher difficulty recipes, making crafting quite difficult. The specialist system is something that balances this out, and allows players to enjoy crafting with more choices.

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So it's not clear to me that the motive for the Specialist system is what you say it is. To solve the problem Yoshid-san mentions (i.e. allowing people to do higher difficulty recipes without being an omnicrafter) just giving Specilists the essential cross-class skills (such as the ones I listed in a previous post on this thread) would be enough.

The Specialist-only recipes came later, maybe as a reaction to people saying (with cause) that Specialization was not very useful.

Byregot's Blessing is a Quality action. It's use is in making the item High Quality, rather than Normal Quality. Someone with only one crafting class can make the NQ item all day long, until materials run out, but making the HQ item takes those cross class skills.

If it is the word "compete" that you object to, oh well. He talks about the difference between having one class leveled and being an omnicrafter. That, and the general idea that crafters are not just meant to be crafting for themselves, means the specialist system was meant to allow a specialist with one class leveled to make HQ, starred stuff at level 60, just as an omnicrafter can make HQ, starred stuff at level 60. That is a comparison between the two conditions, and I was referring to the practical outcome of such a comparison as the two competing against one another on the Marketboard.

The truly level comparison between them would be to have the Specialist able to use all the cross class skills, as regular skills. As I said, that would give the Specialist an advantage over the Omnicrafter, which would be balanced by the inability to produce refined mats from other classes.

While "it would be enough" to give just those few skills, it would not be all that fair to just give those. You cited five skills, 1 WVR, 2 ALC, 1 CUL, 1 CRP. So an ALC would only gain access to 3 new skills, WVR, CUL, CRP would gain access to 4 new skills, and GSM, LTW, BSM, ARM would each gain access to 5? That is not exactly a fair distribution among the various classes, which as I stated above, is a good reason to just give all 21 to all 8 classes.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

While "it would be enough" to give just those few skills, it would not be all that fair to just give those. You cited five skills, 1 WVR, 2 ALC, 1 CUL, 1 CRP. So an ALC would only gain access to 3 new skills, WVR, CUL, CRP would gain access to 4 new skills, and GSM, LTW, BSM, ARM would each gain access to 5? That is not exactly a fair distribution among the various classes, which as I stated above, is a good reason to just give all 21 to all 8 classes.

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That's exactly backwards. What's unfair is the current situation, where, for example, BSM has to cross-class so many other actions just to do a basic version of Rath's MaMa rotation that they don't have enough cross-class slots to bring in Innovation. Giving my short list of essential skills to Specialists removes that unfairness, which is rooted in some classes (like ALC) having better unique skills than other classes.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

That's exactly backwards. What's unfair is the current situation, where, for example, BSM has to cross-class so many other actions just to do a basic version of Rath's MaMa rotation that they don't have enough cross-class slots to bring in Innovation. Giving my short list of essential skills to Specialists removes that unfairness, which is rooted in some classes (like ALC) having better unique skills than other classes.

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When some classes need to gain more than others, it shows two things. One, that the gain itself will not be fair (which is why your proposal is inherently unfair). Two, that the existing situation itself is unfair.

The only way to kill both of those unfair conditions is to simply gain all of the other cross class skills as part of becoming a Specialist.

To keep them from becoming *too* powerful, get rid of the current Specialist-only actions when you get rid of the Specialist-only recipe flag. Any weaver, regardless of Specialist (or lack thereof) should be able to produce any weaver-made item that there exists a recipe for.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

When some classes need to gain more than others, it shows two things. One, that the gain itself will not be fair (which is why your proposal is inherently unfair). Two, that the existing situation itself is unfair.

The only way to kill both of those unfair conditions is to simply gain all of the other cross class skills as part of becoming a Specialist.

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Because getting additional but redundant Name of <X>/Brand of <X> skills by specializing as an ALC is equivalent to getting Comfort Zone and Tricks of the Trade by specializing as a BSM?

I disagree.

No, because getting the following ARE equal :
ALC - Rumination, Brand of Wind, Byregot's Blessing, Ingenuity, Brand of Fire, Ingenuity 2, Rapid Synthesis, Brand of Ice, Piece by Piece, Manipulation, Flawless Synthesis, Innovation, Waste Not, Brand of Earth, Waste Not 2, Careful Synthesis, Brand of Lightning, Careful Synthesis 2, Hasty Touch, Steady Hand 2, Reclaim
BSM : Rumination, Brand of Wind, Byregot's Blessing, Rapid Synthesis, Brand of Ice, Piece by Piece, Manipulation, Flawless Synthesis, Innovation, Waste Not, Brand of Earth, Waste Not 2, Careful Synthesis, Brand of Lightning, Careful Synthesis 2, Tricks of the Trade, Brand of Water, Comfort Zone, Hasty Touch, Steady Hand 2, Reclaim

I'm not going to type out the other 6 classes, but you get the idea. 15, 37, 50 skills. All 21. No Name skills, no Maker's Mark, no Muscle Memory, not until the level cap goes up again anyway.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

A Specialist should not have Specialist-only recipes.

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I disagree with this very strongly. It's good for the economy for everyone to have specific things only they can make, as it gives everyone something special they can sell. It may hurt people who want to be self-sufficient and make everything but as long as it's not something that's required (which, it never will be), you can just sell your specialist crafts to buy someone else's. It works out beautifully, I think.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I disagree with this very strongly. It's good for the economy for everyone to have specific things only they can make, as it gives everyone something special they can sell. It may hurt people who want to be self-sufficient and make everything but as long as it's not something that's required (which, it never will be), you can just sell your specialist crafts to buy someone else's. It works out beautifully, I think.

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Less competition means higher prices. Higher prices means goods don't move as fast, which means less profit over time. That in turn means the Specialist can buy fewer things.

Reducing the number of people who can make and then sell things hurts the economy, rather than helping it.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Less competition means higher prices. Higher prices means goods don't move as fast, which means less profit over time. That in turn means the Specialist can buy fewer things.

Reducing the number of people who can make and then sell things hurts the economy, rather than helping it.

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This is only true to an extent, and one of the biggest problems in 14's market is undercutting more than necessary. Stopping the rampant and excessive undercutting may not have been a design goal of specialists, but it's certainly accomplished it.

I would say the general population decline has done more to stop undercutting than Specialists. Since, y'know, it wasn't just crafted stuff that gets undercut all the time but everything.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

This is only true to an extent, and one of the biggest problems in 14's market is undercutting more than necessary. Stopping the rampant and excessive undercutting may not have been a design goal of specialists, but it's certainly accomplished it.

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Not really. If you aim to sell an item on the market, you have little choice but to undercut, unless you're content waiting for however many items ahead of yours to move first. While specialists may shrink the overall market on specific items, it does next to nothing for undercutting. Not to mention, many omni-crafters have at least one alt, rendering the specialist limitation completely pointless.

At least Roth's idea would directly benefit people who don't want to level everything. Another possible solution would be to give percent bonuses to specialised classes. Like Soul of the Weaver allows you to HQ all weaver crafts significantly more easily. As it stands now though, the devs are competing in a hopeless battle with hardcore players. They should know by now you won't ever stop them for being exactly what they are: hardcore.

If all new master books require specialist actions from here forward...

TBH I would be cool with that. Means fewer people will be interested in the work it takes to become a true omnicrafter, and we will actually have something to trade one another.

Specialist skills and specs is a failed experiment that needs to be dropped like a smelly garbage bag.

I concur IF this game had been built GROUND UP with intentions of trading one another and having a full system involving such trade and design that would be one thing. But this is NOT eve online, and every game which has attempted such a design has failed. All current crafting limitations just result in micro-monopolies, frustration in finding rare (AKA crappy specializations) and other non fun situations.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

If all new master books require specialist actions from here forward...

TBH I would be cool with that. Means fewer people will be interested in the work it takes to become a true omnicrafter, and we will actually have something to trade one another.

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My wife and I will only have to trade with each other. Not only are our main characters omni-crafters (with complementary specializations) but we have each leveled an alt omni-crafter (not yet at 60, just at 57-58 right now) to cover the specialties that our main characters do not. :)

Leveling the alts (mainly using our mains to craft HQ GC turn-ins for our alts) has been interesting. We have about 1000 cordials and a similar number of Ventures now from all the GC seals we have gotten in the process. To bad the Ventures aren't tradeable: our mains have lots of L60 retainers (6 hunting, 4 mining, 4 botany, 2 fishing between us) that we could use our alt's Ventures to send out. Our alt's retianers are only about L46 right now.

BTW, 565 Gathering seems to be the breakpoint for getting max yield (e.g. 20 Birch Logs) from mining and botany retainer ventures. We determined that last night. 563 doesn't cut it.