For tanks: Auto select mob with lowest enmity on cycling

So there is a huge pack of mobs you're tanking and all of the sudden one of them goes off after someone and you're cycling through the list hitting next next next, often times I find this is very slow and inefficient not to mention frustrating. Wouldn't it be cool if there was an option wherein if toggled "next" would switch over to the mob lowest on the hate list so the tank could easily and quickly proceed with reclaiming.

There's a small issue with this suggestion.

Let's say you're a DRK and you Plunged at one mob while throwing Unmend at another. So you have, for the sake of argument, 100 points of aggro on the first and 400 on the second.
Your team is well-coordinated, and they start attacking the Unmended enemy, leaving the Plunged one alone for now. Unfortunately, the BLM forgot to use Quelling Strikes and their Fire IV pulls the mob to them.

So you now have a mob with 100 aggro that's attacking you, and another with 400 that's attacking the BLM. The "lowest on the hate list" is meaningless since it's attacking you just fine, it's the other one that you need to get more aggro on.

Hi there provoke.

I would much rather just be able to see (on the enmity list) whether mobs are being held by another tank, I already know that I dont have aggro on a mob, and in this case I should just provoke, but in fights like A2S, I dont know if the mobs in orange are being held by the other tank, or by the DPS.

To a lesser extent this would also be useful in 24man

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Originally Posted by Niet

There's a small issue with this suggestion.

So you now have a mob with 100 aggro that's attacking you, and another with 400 that's attacking the BLM. The "lowest on the hate list" is meaningless since it's attacking you just fine, it's the other one that you need to get more aggro on.

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It is to be used in order be able to more easily target the mob that is now attacking another group member, like your blm in the example. I'm talking about it selecting first the mob that is now non-red and after someone in your group instead of having to cycle through targets until you reach the mob that has now lost your aggro. I get it that selecting in the context of your scenario, wherein it selects a target that you already have aggro may be meaningless but this is't about keeping aggro its a mechanic to facilitate reclaiming aggro by smart targeting the mobs that have lost your aggro first so you can do as Twilite said and "provoke".

How about this instead of auto select or some craziness like that. I would take a feature from FFXI which was tab target the closest enemy to you. I love that currently they doing have in the game. Nothing worst when you are trying to cycle though mobs and you target a mob you haven't pull yet in the background of your camera. I think with that feature it might fix the problem we are having here.

I'd love it if tab target sequence followed the 1-5 markers.

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Originally Posted by Kirito_Grimking

How about this instead of auto select or some craziness like that. I would take a feature from FFXI which was tab target the closest enemy to you. I love that currently they doing have in the game. Nothing worst when you are trying to cycle though mobs and you target a mob you haven't pull yet in the background of your camera. I think with that feature it might fix the problem we are having here.

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Change your targeting filter to exclude unengaged enemies, only engaged/aggroing.

As for easier enmity monitoring, just look at your enemy list, orange circle =aggro, triangle=losing aggro, yellow (I think) no aggro. In a two tank scenario typically only 1 tank is managing adds, t10,12 excluded

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Originally Posted by repoe

Change your targeting filter to exclude unengaged enemies, only engaged/aggroing.

As for easier enmity monitoring, just look at your enemy list, orange circle =aggro, triangle=losing aggro, yellow (I think) no aggro. In a two tank scenario typically only 1 tank is managing adds, t10,12 excluded

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Red is highest aggro.Yellow means closeish to gaining aggro, orangeish is about to lose aggro. Green is low aggro. Nothing is no enmity on anything.

All you need to know is, if it ain't a bright ass flashing red circle, you don't have aggro. It's nothing to be technical about and is simple common sense.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I'd love it if tab target sequence followed the 1-5 markers.

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If you mean from the actual enmity list, yes yes that would be amazing.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

If you mean from the actual enmity list, yes yes that would be amazing.

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Both, actually. Make it configurable. Right now, tab scans the screen from left to right and picks the next attackable target to the right of the current target (or from the left edge if the current target is not in frame). It's actually a surprisingly inefficient way of doing things from a coding perspective, now that I think about it.

It would be extremely nice to be able to configure it to follow target markers (Attack 1-5, Bind 1-3, DNA 1-2), or the enmity list. It would also be grand to be able to sort the enmity list by various filters, too, while we're dreaming.

I take no chances; I spam my enmity abilities often, especially as my now Lv60 new DRK.

i don't think it should be have an auto switch for the less aggro you have on mob,
but it would be nice to different color when a dps/heal or tank have the aggro on a mob.
also there is some level of signal when we are near to get aggro, but not when we are near to loose it. it would be nice to have a orange circle signal when we have low aggro treat on the mob, and the actual red circle signal when the aggro treat is strong.

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Originally Posted by repoe

As for easier enmity monitoring, just look at your enemy list, orange circle =aggro, triangle=losing aggro, yellow (I think) no aggro.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Red is highest aggro.Yellow means closeish to gaining aggro, orangeish is about to lose aggro. Green is low aggro. Nothing is no enmity on anything.

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Both of these are a bit incorrect.

Red Square means you currently hold the monster's attention.
Flashing orange upside down triangle means you are about to get hate (>95% of the person with the mob's attention).
The orange triangle stops flashing if you are far enough behind the person currently holding enmity. (about 80%->95% of the person with the mob's attention)
Yellow right side up triangle means you have between 50%-80% or so of the enmity of the person with the mobs attention.
Green circle is anything below that. (<50%)

If you are tanking and any of the enemy party list is not flashing red square, then you aren't tanking. Flashing orange doesn't mean someone's about to take the mob's attention, it means they just did.

What all of you really want, anyway, is a feature on the enemy party list that lets you know when someone else has attained the orange or yellow status on the enemy party list. After all, anything besides all red on the enemy party list for a tank is too late, and everything all red is "normal". There is no warning.

I'd suggest to Square that if you're on a tank job, the enemy party list should show the highest enmity status from the party instead of your status. As in, if the black mage in your party is Yellow and everyone else is Green, that mob shows Yellow on the tank's enemy party list widget. Then the tank would be looking for the mob list to show all greens, and the feature would be a huge help to new tanks. (even experienced tanks would be interested, I'm sure)

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Red is highest aggro.Yellow means closeish to gaining aggro, orangeish is about to lose aggro. Green is low aggro. Nothing is no enmity on anything.

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Orange is about to take full aggro or starting to lose it if you were at full aggro (red) from the tank's perspective. Yellow means you've just started to gain aggro or about to completely lose it from the tank's perspective.

I agree that targeting from the tank's perspective leaves a bit to be desired, especially in large pulls.

Here's an idea, lets ask the devs to put your enmity bar below or aside the Mobs Hp in the A~Z list of mobs you have initiated an action on. When one or more goes down besides the one you are focusing on, then some random person is pulling hate somewhere else. Like a slide, it fills up to full when you generate enmity and full means it'll go after you. If someone else is building more enmity than you it'll go down and then they'll leave when it empties out. Very similar to what we see under party members icon. Then tanks can single out a target, rebuild enmity and see who is pulling it away in party before the big red circle changes to a triangle. If everyone is on the same mob you can let them drop to half from the Healer cures before dropping a couple AOE. However this would be easier by selecting the next target by mouse over their place in the list. Instead of cycling through everyone until you get the right one. Unfortunately that's something we deal with on the PS4 if we don't have a mouse to use or something to use it on. Or what the other guy said about having the tab follow the number order they are marked with as opposed to the closest mob in line of sight.

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Originally Posted by Takophiliac

Both of these are a bit incorrect.

Red Square means you currently hold the monster's attention.
Flashing orange upside down triangle means you are about to get hate (>95% of the person with the mob's attention).
The orange triangle stops flashing if you are far enough behind the person currently holding enmity. (about 80%->95% of the person with the mob's attention)
Yellow right side up triangle means you have between 50%-80% or so of the enmity of the person with the mobs attention.
Green circle is anything below that. (<50%)

If you are tanking and any of the enemy party list is not flashing red square, then you aren't tanking. Flashing orange doesn't mean someone's about to take the mob's attention, it means they just did.

What all of you really want, anyway, is a feature on the enemy party list that lets you know when someone else has attained the orange or yellow status on the enemy party list. After all, anything besides all red on the enemy party list for a tank is too late, and everything all red is "normal". There is no warning.

I'd suggest to Square that if you're on a tank job, the enemy party list should show the highest enmity status from the party instead of your status. As in, if the black mage in your party is Yellow and everyone else is Green, that mob shows Yellow on the tank's enemy party list widget. Then the tank would be looking for the mob list to show all greens, and the feature would be a huge help to new tanks. (even experienced tanks would be interested, I'm sure)

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This post is bang on, it's a surprise to be honest how many people misunderstand the enmity icons, it's simple really, if it aint a red square you don't have hate, the end. If SE did want to improve the system though I'd say reverse it for tanks, that way the aim for tanks is to have the green icons with red meaning you've lost it, orange triangle meaning you're close to losing it etc... It should just be the exact opposite of how it is for the other roles. As it is now you have to cycle through each mob and check the progress bar instead which is obviously more difficult than glancing over a group of icons. I'd rather have help in the form of more information that is easier and faster to understand than any auto target adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Both, actually. Make it configurable. Right now, tab scans the screen from left to right and picks the next attackable target to the right of the current target (or from the left edge if the current target is not in frame). It's actually a surprisingly inefficient way of doing things from a coding perspective, now that I think about it.

It would be extremely nice to be able to configure it to follow target markers (Attack 1-5, Bind 1-3, DNA 1-2), or the enmity list. It would also be grand to be able to sort the enmity list by various filters, too, while we're dreaming.

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Indeed. Too many times, I'm cycling through the list and then it jumps off the list and selects every damn thing else nearby. I've tried messing with filters and stuff but this seems to be a perm thing.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

I take no chances; I spam my enmity abilities often, especially as my now Lv60 new DRK.

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This is a good habit to have.

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Originally Posted by MeanderCat

Orange is about to take full aggro or starting to lose it if you were at full aggro (red) from the tank's perspective.

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As has been stated previously, there is no warning that you're about to lose it. Anything that isn't red is already lost. There is a slight delay in when the mob actually hits someone else, such that if the indicator turns orange in the middle of an enemy's action, you have until the end of that action to fix the situation, but you've already lost the mob's attention, and for most practical purposes, this means at this point someone else will take at least one hit before you remedy things.

The only visual cue we have in regards to "about to lose aggro" is the party member list and who has a near full #2 bar. But this is a given as those meters are part of the reason why you cycle anyway.

Apologies in advance if this sounds harsh, but I feel that we have plenty of warning as to when someone is about to rip off of us as tanks just from watching the aggro meters on the party list. That's what they're there for, and 90% of DPS/Healers completely ignore theirs so its up to us to have the raid awareness to keep an eye on them between every target we're tanking and if the DPS is focusing something that we aren't that's something that is just part of being a good tank, being on the lookout for that. I feel that a system like what this thread suggests isn't really necessary, honestly. It doesn't inherently make my job harder or more unpleasant to cycle between targets/throw an AoE/multidot now and then and look at my party list like a responsible tank to maintenance enmity.

I feel like one thing that would be nice however is to make Provoke's animation more visible (it is visible but can easily be obscured by BLM spells and other particle effects, etc.) and give it an audible sound effect. This way if its another TANK that just got aggro from you, you'll have a unique visual/audio cue that jumps out at you (without having to make a filthy provoke macro -shudder-).

Although I could argue that is something you should watch for as well on enmity meters, your OT's enmity going from 50% to 100% in a single GCD...

tl;dr we have enmity meters, USE THEM. Its not hard, I promise.

Oh no, healers certainly DO pay attention to their aggro meters.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I feel like one thing that would be nice however is to make Provoke's animation more visible (it is visible but can easily be obscured by BLM spells and other particle effects, etc.) .

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I completely agree with this, I've never understood why voke is so feeble and quiet. I miss the FF11 voke, it was loud and obnoxious, which a provoke should be imo. Not only that but everyone knew you'd used it. Didn't stop the silly macro's though...

<Provoke> <Just used it>
<Provoke> in 20 seconds
<Provoke> in 10 seconds
<Provoke> <Just used it>

I'm like, mate I could hear it from 250 yalms away you don't need to spam the chat log with it, I'm trying to stun bomb toss here.....

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

I feel that we have plenty of warning as to when someone is about to rip off of us as tanks just from watching the aggro meters on the party list.
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tl;dr we have enmity meters, USE THEM. Its not hard, I promise.

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That would be great if we could see them all, all the time, but we can't; and given enough mobs (as low as m=3 in a light party), 260ms human visual reaction times do not allow "cycle through targets and check their meters" as an effective solution. Yes, it helps, but there could be a whole 2-3 seconds before you see a DD's crit hate spike if you're target cycling. Changing the orange indicator to mean "You still have aggro, but someone's close to taking it from you" would reduce that time to a quarter second.

It's having three different colors of indicators meaning various levels of not having aggro while only having one color for having aggro that leads to this problem. If SE would just make yellow into what orange means now (not primary aggro, but close to getting it), while making orange mean having primary aggro, but barely, and close to losing it, it would be a lot clearer. It seems a substantial portion of the playerbase seems to already think that's what they mean now (a misconception that I can't help but think originated from the idea that it would make more sense that way).

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Originally Posted by Twilite

The only visual cue we have in regards to "about to lose aggro" is the party member list and who has a near full #2 bar. But this is a given as those meters are part of the reason why you cycle anyway.

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And when there are few enough mobs that you can effectively cycle between all of them quickly, that can suffice. In larger groups, though, it takes far too long.

It also mixes up cycling what you want to attack with what you want to look at. For instance, once you have a bit of a lead, you might want to focus most of your attacks on the boss while holding others with AoE skills like Flash and Overpower, resorting to a direct attack on an add only if you're on the verge of losing them. But while you're cycling through adds just to see whether any are in need of more direct action or to see how soon you'll need another AoE, your GCD timer finishes and it's time to send another attack to the boss, who's now not targeted anymore because of adds you were only trying to look at.

The enemy list would be a better place for this information, as that lets us look at all the aggroed mobs at once. Then we'd be able to leave target cycling for where we want to actually target our skills.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

I'd love it if tab target sequence followed the 1-5 markers.

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You can emulate that to some extent if you use multiple targeting filters. I have one target filter that will only select marked targets and ignore unmarked ones. It doesn't actually take the markers in numeric order, but just excluding unmarked mobs can get me to the one I want quick enough in a run where they're being marked.

In large groups you don't have to concern yourself too much with enmity bars because you'll be slamming the mobs with your AOE threat so much that nothing on the planet, in the universe, or in some parallel reality will rip aggro from you.

Also the enmity list selection is clipped to your LOS.