More to dungeons :o

Well after finishing up FFX HD, was wondering if they could ever add some decent puzzles to dungeon, something that can be randomized so can't be solved same way each time, although hopefully not as difficult as some pervious FF game's dungeons/temples were, just something challenging or different than purely hacking threw mobs/bosses. >.<

Unless the puzzles are short, along with the dungeon, people won't bother doing it since it's not speed run friendly.

i think all of the new dungeons are too plain and simple. I miss the optional paths, the optional mobs. Heck Qarn nm was awesomness cause of the puzzles it had

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Originally Posted by stanrir

i think all of the new dungeons are too plain and simple. I miss the optional paths, the optional mobs. Heck Qarn nm was awesomness cause of the puzzles it had

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Dungeons like Qarn are fun but only in limited quantities. Maybe release a couple of those per Expansion at most.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Unless the puzzles are short, along with the dungeon, people won't bother doing it since it's not speed run friendly.

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Hmm so so, I mean people still do their dungeons from roulette and quests, and if they ever added some kind item for a quest like anima weapon they'll still senseless farm it, whether they enjoy such or not, so yeah, doubt speed running really effects things that much. >.< Anyway a puzzle could easily be added between the sections of a boss, something like what qarn where if you got it right you can just move along but if wrong additional mobs would spawn, ideas like that would be pretty neat just on a grander scale.

You still create the problem of people wanting to speed run dungeons because X and others who simply want to go through the dungeon normally. Honestly, as much as I love puzzles in RPGs, I would not enjoy doing the same puzzles (or puzzles in general) hundreds of times for my daily grinds.

I honestly feel if they were to do this they would need to make the puzzles really easy. The FFXIV community already struggles with stuff as it is in dungeons, puzzles would add to this problem if they were difficult.

Also while hard dungeons and puzzles would be fun sadly I feel they've made it clear enough that they don't want anything hard outside of endgame raids and the very occasional trial.

I'd love this, I think it'd be great to have something to think about beyond just rotations and mechanics. Sadly, I find that most dungeons feel incredibly monotonous after a few runs through.

As said though, too many people are obsessed with speedrunning everything, so I fear it won't really work beyond the realm of single player games.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

I honestly feel if they were to do this they would need to make the puzzles really easy. The FFXIV community already struggles with stuff as it is in dungeons, puzzles would add to this problem if they were difficult.

Also while hard dungeons and puzzles would be fun sadly I feel they've made it clear enough that they don't want anything hard outside of endgame raids and the very occasional trial.

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It's the sad truth. The common player simply fails to grasp basic things.

I remember SWToR implementing certain puzzle bosses. Specifically the first puzzle boss they had implemented in their EV raid. People made an app to solve the puzzle which everyone used, lol. Static puzzles will be memorized, random puzzles will be circumvented by third party apps.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I remember SWToR implementing certain puzzle bosses. Specifically the first puzzle boss they had implemented in their EV raid. People made an app to solve the puzzle which everyone used, lol. Static puzzles will be memorized, random puzzles with be circumvented by third party apps.

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I'm not sure which I find more pathetic - the fact an app was made, or my lack of surprise at the discovery of this. :P

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Static puzzles will be memorized

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I don't really see how this is different than memorizing the pull order and your optimal rotation to kill them the quickest. Basically, once you have done a dungeon enough times, you'll be going by memory. It's not exactly unexpected.

What the hell happened to Winebaud's Riddles? Weren't we meant to get more quests like that? I mean I guess we got the broom quests with Matoya, but that's still nothing...

Crazy idea, but you know how we sometimes get solo instances in the story? With 3.1 for instance, we had a little duty in the Vault to deal with. Well... Do that with puzzles...

Rather than taking AntiTower, and giving it some obnoxious Anti-Gravity puzzle (has any game ever pulled that off? I really hope the 'Anti' in AntiTower stands for Anti-Freeze, and we're going there to solve Coerthas' ice problem...), instead have the crappy repeatable dungeon and have a separate duty using it, entirely solo as part of some side-quest content (or even MSQ, because lord knows those quests could use something new...), which involves puzzles.

As for dungeons themselves... Well, I'd like to see more ways to tackle them at the very least... The arguments against puzzles in them I get, but that doesn't mean dungeons have to be entirely linear... Heck, you can even put puzzles in a non-linear dungeon with minimal impact; Make two routes to the boss, more or less equal in how long they take. The first route is the "smart" route, you have one shot at a puzzle, succeed and you go down this path and are perhaps rewarded with an extra chest. The second route is the "dumb" route, you failed the puzzle and thus take this equal path to the boss. Then slap in a third route for an entirely optional boss, just because some of us want to enjoy the game, rather than race through it... I'd also love to see Hunts and Treasure Maps enter dungeons... Anything to break up the monotony... Then there are a few Job specific things they could do, or rather Ninja specific things, because I don't think any other Job has a mechanic like Hide (granted, Hide does nothing these days). Something like Tam-Tara, where you get to the final barrier and have to go to a little side room to get the rosary to disable it (ignore the fact that you need to kill the mobs to pick up the rosary for a minute...), take that concept and apply it to more stuff; The time it takes to clear out the mobs and pick up the thing for the barrier, and the time it takes for a Ninja to sneak off there and pick it up can be balanced as equal. Suddenly the same room can be tackled in a new way. Could slap in a few new skills (yay skill bloat!) to have this apply to other Jobs as well, Float for example.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

The age of discovery ended awhile ago.

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Nah, the people who use guides always used guides, they just don't have to physically buy them with the advent of the interweb... Plenty of people still do blind runs and discover everything without resorting to guides, the fact that the developers seemingly do not care to cater to these people is a real shame... Honestly the main issue with anything like this is the Duty Finder, which IMO should have been phased out looooooong ago. Call me old fashioned, but people should have to communicate to do some of the stuff, the Duty Finder has been toxic since day one. Sure it's nice and convenient, but I think it might be too convenient... You can burn through plenty of dungeons in a day, so the devs make us grind lots of them to get stuff done. No matter what you can always get a group for most content, so nobody really needs to make friends. Slapping speed runners together with first timers (who may want to enjoy the damn content) was never going to end well. Had the game progressed from "Convenience" to "Go make friends", I can't quite see the same issues happening with a group of people who talked it out before entering, let alone a group of friends... Perhaps I'm just being idealistic, though. I'd just much rather work to even get into the content, and have it be much more rewarding and interesting as a result, than have something I can queue up for 100 times a day, need to repeat ad nauseum, and has utterly no nuance because people will argue over it...

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I don't really see how this is different than memorizing the pull order and your optimal rotation to kill them the quickest. Basically, once you have done a dungeon enough times, you'll be going by memory. It's not exactly unexpected.

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I suppose. To be honest, I would love dungeons that were Zeldalike in that they would have puzzles scattered throughout, but people would just look at guides to figure out the answers. Same with fights I suppose. The age of discovery ended awhile ago.

Think dungeons can just use some mechanic other then just running threw and killing things, not necessary puzzles. Different paths to one area, having to split party up, guess they could always bring some fate mechanics in there too, guarding npc through trash, or defending stuff from mobs for a certain time, having some of the party dealing with trash while other members deal with some puzzle/mechanic, not seeing a whole lot like that in dungeons anymore, any interesting mechanics are just left to the bosses and most if it can just be ran threw with brute force.

I think another thing that could be added to make dungeons more interesting, is having two paths with 1 team in each. This would mean 8 players need to queue in, but I think it would be fun. Basically, in order for you to progress, the other team needs to do something and vice versa. An example, you're storming a castle and 1 team is fighting along the walls while one team is in the courtyard. The team on the walls needs to make their way over to open the gate for the courtyard team to make it through. While the team is fighting along the walls, the team down below fights infinite waves until the door is opened. (and so on, with an eventual meet up on the final boss)

I once played something like this in Guild Wars Factions, during one of the earliest missions. There was 1 team of people who brought their characters over from the original campaign and one team made up on Factions players. They each followed their own story to get there, so arriving together in that way made sense. It was a merger of missions between these two http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mayhem_in_the_Market and http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Welcome_to_Cantha

I know this isn't adding puzzles, but I thought it fit under the "more to dungeons" topic :)

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Nah, the people who use guides always used guides, they just don't have to physically buy them with the advent of the interweb... Plenty of people still do blind runs and discover everything without resorting to guides, the fact that the developers seemingly do not care to cater to these people is a real shame... Honestly the main issue with anything like this is the Duty Finder, which IMO should have been phased out looooooong ago. Call me old fashioned, but people should have to communicate to do some of the stuff, the Duty Finder has been toxic since day one. Sure it's nice and convenient, but I think it might be too convenient... You can burn through plenty of dungeons in a day, so the devs make us grind lots of them to get stuff done. No matter what you can always get a group for most content, so nobody really needs to make friends. Slapping speed runners together with first timers (who may want to enjoy the damn content) was never going to end well. Had the game progressed from "Convenience" to "Go make friends", I can't quite see the same issues happening with a group of people who talked it out before entering, let alone a group of friends... Perhaps I'm just being idealistic, though. I'd just much rather work to even get into the content, and have it be much more rewarding and interesting as a result, than have something I can queue up for 100 times a day, need to repeat ad nauseum, and has utterly no nuance because people will argue over it...

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Take away the duty finder and you'll lose quite a lot of subs at this point. A lot of people work and don't have the time to wait around looking for others everytime they need to do a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Unless the puzzles are short, along with the dungeon, people won't bother doing it since it's not speed run friendly.

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And this is the reason MMOs are turning into lobby games.

The most fun i ever had in an MMO was crawling through a super long dungeon solving puzzles and fighting bosses while chatting with the party.
These days, people barely even greet each other, its all just "Im just here for the loot as fast as possible, shut up"

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Originally Posted by Sylve

And this is the reason MMOs are turning into lobby games.

The most fun i ever had in an MMO was crawling through a super long dungeon solving puzzles and fighting bosses while chatting with the party.
These days, people barely even greet each other, its all just "Im just here for the loot as fast as possible, shut up"

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The one downside of the DF, it kills any attempt at social bonding.

I think puzzles would work better in story dungeons you maybe only do once or on a specific roulette like the Main Scenario roulette.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Take away the duty finder and you'll lose quite a lot of subs at this point. A lot of people work and don't have the time to wait around looking for others everytime they need to do a dungeon.

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Well, I said phase out, not remove completely...

You'd think those with limited free time would be more keen to make friends and essentially get instant access to content... I mean unless you have a rigid static, you're waiting no matter what... Even with Tank and Healer, I rarely get instant queues...

Regardless of how much time I have, I would rather wait to form a group I know, be that personally or that I know is going to adhere to whatever standards were detailed in the Party Finder, than wait for a complete wild card in the Duty Finder. At the very least I can Blacklist any problematic player picked up in Party Finder, no such luck in the Duty Finder.

All they need to do is slap a bonus for doing the dungeons without the Duty Finder. That makes it worth the non-existent extra wait. That's honestly a much better concept for "Free Company Content" than whatever Diadem (Hard) was meant to be. Certainly some details and balance issues to be ironed out, but that is something that leans much more to creating a social environment where groups can play their way, than the Duty Finder, which has created at best a convenient anti-social lobby, and at worst a toxic one...

Something like dungeons with multiple paths, puzzles, and optional bosses, shouldn't be "impossible". They only are because this game practically forces use of the Duty Finder, so content has to be standardized around the lowest common denominator. Dungeons will be done by speed runners and people interested in stopping and reading every note in Tam-Tara (Hard), and the Duty Finder pairs both those players up.

I hope that with the recent adujstment to just getting 2 dungeons they might make a side dungeon that would be a labyrinth that changes - time based changing of paths and different map layout(maybe 10 different ones) each time you enter. With NMs roaming about - some maybe even hunting you, maybe some tracks in there to follow, tons of chests to open(is that a mimic or a chest - I want a corridor of chests and other such things). I guess they could use the diadem model though I'd like the whole instance be limited to max 6 light parties - with each party having their own goals to hit but in them doing so unlock specific triggers that each party needs to hit to in the end fight a boss. Some parties might get puzzels, some gauntlets, some hunting, some finding items(from chests), some just triggering certain spots.

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Originally Posted by stanrir

i think all of the new dungeons are too plain and simple. I miss the optional paths, the optional mobs. Heck Qarn nm was awesomness cause of the puzzles it had

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What puzzles?

You mean the stones where some newbie would get yelled at if he set in the wrong symbol and pulled additional trash?

Oh yeah such fun.

If it's something you're not going to farm than it could be fun!

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

It's the sad truth. The common player simply fails to grasp basic things.

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because you are not a common player? what are you then?

Everyone of us is a player there are no différences, there are no better or worse, some dungeons you will be good others you will be average and otehrs you will simply suck, that is human NOBODY is good everywhre, might as well remind yourself about this instead of going about demeaning others for not being like you would like them to be.

Puzzle seems a good idea besides nobody will force you to do them..eh? you still hold the choice..of course you would get less tomes...everything has a price afterall

some simple puzzles to spice things up would be awesome , and if involves all the 4 members instead of just 1..... better , like color puzzle or simon ...something that all 4 members need to do in order to advance.

Old mmorpgs used to have way more puzzles :( , guess the "GOGOGOGOGO" generation is to blame , but devs did nothing to stop or slow it down ...and now everything is rush , pull tons of mobs aoe ...next pull.... only interesting mechanics are on bosses and even then half are ignored because who cares? heal and keep zerging the boss.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

It's the sad truth. The common player simply fails to grasp basic things.

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They only fail because the game fails to teach the player basics of the trinity. Yeah there's youtube videos etc, but do you really need an outside source (aside from the games manual) how to play your game? All SE has to do is make optional intense, extended, intuitive dungeons for experienced/confident players with a seasoned touch of replability (not to do over and over but give reasons to explore new areas or objectives "AND NOT LIKE DIADEM" ).

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

because you are not a common player? what are you then?

Everyone of us is a player there are no différences, there are no better or worse, some dungeons you will be good others you will be average and otehrs you will simply suck, that is human NOBODY is good everywhre, might as well remind yourself about this instead of going about demeaning others for not being like you would like them to be.

Puzzle seems a good idea besides nobody will force you to do them..eh? you still hold the choice..of course you would get less tomes...everything has a price afterall

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A player that actually reads everything.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

because you are not a common player? what are you then?
Everyone of us is a player there are no différences, there are no better or worse, some dungeons you will be good others you will be average and otehrs you will simply suck, that is human NOBODY is good everywhre, might as well remind yourself about this instead of going about demeaning others for not being like you would like them to be.

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I'm sorry but there is no political correct way to state that some people are better/more intelligent that others. It's a simple fact of life that human beings are not created equal.
And he is right: the average player in this and virtually every other MMO I have encountered is HORRIBLE in terms of player skill.
Even if you explain basic stuff in detail they royally screw up when it comes to putting it into practice.

Not necessarily because they are unintelligent or something. Many of them simply don't take the game serious enough to devote 100% brain processor time to it when it matters. It is difficult to perform in a raid when you watch netflix and type crap in guild chat.

Raiders are the elite. Savage raiders and people that can perform at that level (I can't either and I am not interested enough to learn. I have 0 problems admitting that) are the very tine elite of the elite maybe 5% of the playerbase.

Just think about it: there is a reason why Void Ark and expert dungeons are pretty easy in terms of tuning.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Yeah there's youtube videos etc, but do you really need an outside source (aside from the games manual) how to play your game?

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No.
What you need to do is READ the tooltips of the skill.
THINK for a few seconds about how they might be applied best.
Maybe test a bit at the dummy.

Add a portion of general situational awareness: Voilà: you now possess the skills to perform decently. Not elite but decent that every non savage dungeon/raid should be no problem to handle.

Off topic rant:
God I hate the 1000 char limit. Can't formulate a half coherent answer with that. FIRE the idiot that thought of it and remove it already!

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Originally Posted by Granyala

No.
What you need to do is READ the tooltips of the skill.
THINK for a few seconds about how they might be applied best.
Maybe test a bit at the dummy.

Add a portion of general situational awareness: Voilà: you now possess the skills to perform decently. Not elite but decent that every non savage dungeon/raid should be no problem to handle.

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Don't think you understand what I said. The game fails to teach you the trinity. It doesn't say "Paladin = become enemy priority one!". You may have skills that tell you about defense and enmity, but where do you use these things? Should I use this flash move to attack multiple mobs? But I gain this enemy attention thing and they're killing me! Would sharing the damage with my teammates be better? Maybe I can defend myself with this buff thing, but I'm still getting hurt! They'd probably never know if they're doing it right unless someone told them that's how it works.

The game teaches you nothing about that. Unless you observed a previous paladin class or played previous mmo's you'd understand clearly what to do, but this game is open to new mmo players and the like which draws in a good amount of new players who are freely playing there new game blindly. (Sword class? Coooool.)

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Even if you explain basic stuff in detail they royally screw up when it comes to putting it into practice.

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May need to define basic. Aoes are basic, Add killing is basic, adds that explode certain debuffs when killed buffing a nearby monster is not basic and needs to be learned.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Don't think you understand what I said. The game fails to teach you the trinity. It doesn't say "Paladin = enemy distraction!". You may have skills that tell you about defense and enmity, but where do you use these things? Should I use this flash move to attack multiple mobs? But I gain this enemy attention thing and they're killing me!

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Did you even try your class quests?
What you say is explained in detail there.

Granted they don't tell a pally that flash is his main aggro spell but there has to be SOME room for brain activity and experimentation here. After all that IS the purpose of leveling. Gaining skills one at a time, trying it in various scenarios and figuring out where it rocks and where it sucks.

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May need to define basic. Aoes are basic, Add killing is basic

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Yes and that's already where they fail and fail and fail.
AoE? Look at Titan. Look at how they fail and die.
Adds? Look at the Void Ark Trash before Irminsul how the low HP priority adds get to live while everyone "ERMAGAWD DSP MORBOLZ!11".
AoE2: Look at Echnida, how many people fail to turn around when she casts Petrify even when you explain it in chat before you pull.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Did you even try your class quests?
What you say is explained in detail there.

Granted they don't tell a pally that flash is his main aggro spell but there has to be SOME room for brain activity and experimentation here. After all that IS the purpose of leveling. Gaining skills one at a time, trying it in various scenarios and figuring out where it rocks and where it sucks.

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Actually I did do my class quests, and no they told me absolutely nothing. Defending could mean "beat the crap out of baddies in your way before they kill your buddy" or something. Won't mean you'll have to gather enmity of nearby enemies and divert all attacks on you, because even in those situations, your affixed to a npc healer who most likely will suck and render your thoughts to "I should prioritize killing this giant monster as quick as I can so I won't take so much damage", while the little ones do tiny damage. Thinking of how your class/role works is never clear, no matter how hard you think it through as the game doesn't even consider telling you how other classes compliment your role.

Pally was slightly fortunate to have whm as a side class thing....but it never said that healers were defenseless and needed guarding. "These mages can sustain themselves in battles pretty easily!" Is what most new players probably said. Healing others probably wouldn't of crossed their minds, not even if you were tasked to

heal a tree or npc in the quest line

. Makes me glad their adding a training hall though, may fix some of this confusion for new players. Not sure about the mentor thing, players are impatient as it is, optimism for me of course.

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Yes and that's already where they fail and fail and fail.
AoE? Look at Titan. Look at how they fail and die.
Adds? Look at the Void Ark Trash before Irminsul how the low HP priority adds get to live while everyone "ERMAGAWD DPS MORBOLZ!11".
AoE2: Look at Echnida, how many people fail to turn around when she casts Petrify even when you explain it in chat before you pull.

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Titan: That's more of a reflex issue that can be fixed overtime than a intelligence one which takes a bit longer pending on the person. Not to mention, aoe cast times are not always the same, throwing players off most of the time. Don't get me started on lag lol
Void Ark: Its very clear that's a "Trial and Error" fight, as no one knows those tiny bulbs would be an issue, not to mention "omg big morbol" is in your face while most attention is on them simply because they're bigger, of course no one really notices the little ones the first time through unless your range or a healer happening to be looking around the place to take note of potential dangers.
Echidna: If you told them when the move initiates in rotation, it'd be an inexperienced player case, not the fact that they're not listening. Someone could tell a photographer "make sure to open the other lid before taking a picture with your extra lens protected camera", when They're clearly used to their original camera. They nod, talk to their friends moments later about funny stuff. Forgets for a moment after all the stuff that's happened and snaps a picture..... but forgot to take off the other lens. Its a simple mistake. Messing up is the way of life, we learn from it and make it better. 14 is heavy on that concept, no matter who you are. No one's perfect, doesn't mean they can never understand certain things.

I'd like to know if you never made a mistake when you watched a full video tutorial of a raid fight telling exactly what you should do and completed on the first try. If you did, kudos to you, otherwise you seem rather harsh unreasonable to inexperienced players.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Actually I did do my class quests, and no they told me absolutely nothing.

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I admit they do hide the information very well, and it's possible to miss it. Maybe though there are those pop up help logs that I forgot but they do tell you how to do things if you, read and enjoy the content. For example. Gladiator.

First two quests, get you taught how to use combos. In the level 5 one it says your job is to command the opponents attention. "However, there are times when we must do battle alongside allies whose talents are not the same as our own. In such situation, your role is not to slay the enemy in front of you, but rather defend the man beside you"

Level 10, both guildhests come up and class quest. The class quest mentions protect Bruce, who will heal you and use your flash technique to get the guys attention. The guildhest is about group management. People instead just go head strong into the fights and do not read.

Now that might not be the case for all jobs. I remember Conjurer being a lot of killing mobs with stone and aero, but the fact that you can cure and are called a Healer..I'm sure if we go back through the dialogue for the quests it might help also.

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As for the dungeons, I think puzzles and mechanics for later fights would do wonders. Also maybe eliminating so many of the trash in between and give us a mini-boss too. Like in the first dungeon, Sastasha, where you had the MDR who dropped the key and instead give him some perks to do things

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

Everyone of us is a player there are no différences, there are no better or worse, some dungeons you will be good others you will be average and otehrs you will simply suck, that is human NOBODY is good everywhre

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Well, this statement is just incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

...

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I remember some of that, its really vague since its been so long. Its mostly the first few dungeons where new players have problems getting their bearings on their class roles. Thnx for the added info though

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

I'd like to know if you never made a mistake when you watched a full video tutorial of a raid fight telling exactly what you should do and completed on the first try. If you did, kudos to you, otherwise you seem rather harsh unreasonable to inexperienced players.

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I was a HORRIBLE gimp back when I started raiding in TBC wow.
But then again WoW is different than FF-XIV. There were no class quests or anything. You were just facerolling quest mobs / level dungeons until suddenly BAM .. raid... suddenly stuff matters... matters A LOT... CC (crowd control) .. what's that?! How do I do that? How do I keep track of another target while DPSing the boss?

Of course I failed to hold an add in CC etc.

If you are saying that today's dumbed down leveling does a piss poor job to prepare people for raid duties: I completely agree.

BUT ... and here comes the kicker: I did these mistakes a few times, others told me what to do and I LEARNED.
Also: no I didn't make mistakes like ignoring priority targets or standing in obvious bad crap (the occasional brain lag excluded ofc, we all have those).
ESP in FF where mere quest mobs yellow stuff does major damage to the character. Shouldn't take a rocket surgeon to come to the conclusion "maybe I should dodge that".
I might not have had the uber DPS rotations figured out but I knew the most important basic: in a raid do what experienced people tell you.
That's what's absent here.

We wipe once .. no big deal. I highlight the important stuff again. READ. We wipe again due to the same fails? Well that's clearly a skill/attention issue.

actually there is a class quest in paladin that teach u to FLASH enemies to get attention so npcs dont get killed ....

lvl 10 quest :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYNzyHlkM30

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Actually I did do my class quests, and no they told me absolutely nothing.

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Maybe next time you should, ya know, read the text instead of speeding through it like it's a bother. Not only do the Paladin quests repeatedly drum into you the need to maintain aggro (and how to do this), some fights are quite impossible to complete without doing this, because the mobs will charge after your healer causing a failure.

So, basically what we've learned is that you didn't pay attention in class. Who would have figured? Oh, and before you get all heated the same applies to other tanking jobs, including Warrior and Dark Knight. Furthermore, the healer quests focus on your ability to keep the fighters alive more than your ability to single-handedly stone everyone to death.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Maybe next time you should, ya know, read the text instead of speeding through it like it's a bother. Not only do the Paladin quests repeatedly drum into you the need to maintain aggro (and how to do this), some fights are quite impossible to complete without doing this, because the mobs will charge after your healer causing a failure.

So, basically what we've learned is that you didn't pay attention in class. Who would have figured? Oh, and before you get all heated the same applies to other tanking jobs, including Warrior and Dark Knight. Furthermore, the healer quests focus on your ability to keep the fighters alive more than your ability to single-handedly stone everyone to death.

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Do any of the healer quests also teach you about removing debuffs? I keep running into healers that seem oblivious to things that can easily get removed like Poison and Vulnerability Up.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Do any of the healer quests also teach you about removing debuffs? I keep running into healers that seem oblivious to things that can easily get removed like Poison and Vulnerability Up.

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You should learn that as soon as you get hit with <slow> during questing.