I've cleared thordan ex a few times, and its a fun fight...I like it a lot. My problem though is that there is
1. Absolutely no tools whatsoever ingame to teach people how to play not optimally but adequately in any respect whatsoever to prepare them for fights like the extreme primals.
2. Thordan ex should have been behind a gate. Pure and simple. Too much bad play to go around. Thinking people have enough skill going from the roulette grind to thordan ex is beyond stupid, SE. Why you do this?
It's like taking a 3 year old with a wiffle bat and putting him out to play in the MLB. It really is. Why no little league?
Going from braindead "even a blind fish could do it" gameplay to 10-phase mechanic memorization with no mess ups allowed -- with nothing in between to tie the gap is a huge flaw in this games design.
-
11-21-2015, 11:37 AMDinahDemiurgeExpert roulette --> Thordan Extreme = Balanced difficulty curve? Really?
-
11-21-2015, 11:43 AMFevelle
It's Expert > Alexander NM > Ravana EX > Thordan EX.
But I do agree with you. -
11-21-2015, 11:49 AMDinahDemiurgeNo, thats what it SHOULD be at least, but its not. You can unlock thordan ex without doing alex normal or ravana ex which is the problem...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fevelle
-
11-21-2015, 02:39 PMMorningstar1337also I'd argue that it should be Expert > Alexander Gordeas NM > Bismarck > Ravana > Void Arc > Alexander Gordeas: Floors 1 and 2 (Savage) [though the trial should be unlocked just before then] > THEN Thordan's reign > Alexander Gordeas: Floors 3 and 4 (Savage)Quote:
Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge
As for how: I would suggest having the quest be longer, starting form the same point as it is now, but having multiple steps like the initial relic requiring....
Mhachi Farthing, Primal Tokens, and a key item form Alex, THEN unlocking the instance -
11-21-2015, 08:53 PMDinahDemiurgeAgreed...I am more stressed out because I hate being a jerk but I like to do content and SE designs the game where players like me have to essentially remove people if we want to succeed and that just...hurts my soul sometimes when I don't blame the player as much as I blame SE for not giving them the basic knowledge to succeed. Even farm groups on this fight are full of people who got carried. IDK if its just my bad luck but farming for 5-6 hours over last two days has yielded one kill and its usually because a dps or healer dies to aoe. They just cant handle it from a fundamental skill level because theyve had no practice in other more chill content. I may be wrong but I am just trying to wrap my head around this huge gap in skill between old players and new players. Old players busted their chops on old amdapor keep (that is a difficulty level we should be shooting for) where that wall was a huge block for people and actually had a sort of enrage (NOT THE BEEES!!) which was great. Taught people to dodge and keep dps up. Nothing like that exists in new expert dungeons which are essentially 20 minute facerolls and its really lame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
-
11-21-2015, 09:00 PMLegion88
I thought Thordan Ex can only entered with a premade party and not solo via duty finder.
In that case you can filter your comrades and their skill level. Not everyone not having completed Savage is a bad player without skill. -
11-21-2015, 09:03 PMDinahDemiurgeHow can I filter by "skill level" without being a jerk to people who I truly believe is not their fault that SE cant design a game that teaches its players how to actually play it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion88
-
11-21-2015, 09:05 PMLegion88
They theach them how to play with helps and skill descriptions. Much people are just to dump to read it or think about their effect.
-
11-21-2015, 10:33 PMStarkbeaumont
you can't go straight to thordan ex just with expert roulette cause of ilv req., unless you count several weeks of eso spending (a bit over 4 weeks). in the same time you could do enough alex and learn some endgame. and as already mentioned in another thread, almost non of the mechanics are new and are taught through the MSQ, while you should learn your job through leveling and dungeons. also neither bismarck nor ravana will help you to beat thordan. mechanics are way to different on those.
-
11-22-2015, 12:09 AMLemuel81cmon lets be real here. Most players do not want to put any real effort into harder content. SE cannot fix an issue that lies within the community. Folks want things handed to them and not work toward it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge
most mechanics are just recycled. -
11-22-2015, 07:12 AMSilica-chan
there should be a minigame where I have to dodge divebombs that would actually help
I hate those so much in every fight they come up they kill me I just can't manage to survive them except I'm lucky
Edit thanks firefox for messing with me by not saving my 1st edit <_<
I'm with the people here that jump is a bit to fast. I haven't fought Ravana yet (but I beat T9 pre HW) but I guess a punishing fight before thordan ex as unlock requirement wouldn't hurt -
11-22-2015, 09:11 AMDotsusama
Most of those mechanics, in form or another, exist in the story version of the fight. The problem is that the story version isn't punishing AT ALL to a group that has awareness of their surroundings and can pump out a decent amount of damage.
Much like the difference between Ultima's second trial and the story version, the fights are tuned around the same mechanics just scaled up to punish players more immediately for missteps. I don't think a gate will help your problem with learning parties. -
11-22-2015, 09:26 AMDuskTS
More players will attempt Thordan because it's seen as far more accessible content than Savage. The only way players get better is by learning the hard way, through their own intuition, and taking on board the advice of their betters.
Also 'tools... to teach people how to play' aka parser will only be a tool to give you leverage in removing bads from your PF. -
11-22-2015, 01:51 PMHyperiusUltima
Honestly, I believe the strong point for improving the community would've been the Steps of Faith a LOOOOONG way back when it was mechanic-based and not just 'burn all the things'.
Then you had the whiners that said it was 'too hard' and so they nerfed the encounter so that people who wanted Heavensward would get through. -
11-23-2015, 06:23 AMFwha
Most people are terrible at the game. Usually when I clear something, I end up having to wait for other people to catch up before I can get another clear because people don't use their skills/can't dodge/don't have any awareness at all/can't learn quick enough. I have up to a3s cleared without a static only because people are bad at the game. It's awful seeing people with i200 or hand out i210 gear doing abysmal dps or failing simple mechanics.
You have more than enough time to dodge them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silica-chan
-
11-23-2015, 05:45 PMCheraa
That is so much true.
I mean, come on, Bismarck is fucking 6 month old and DPS is still not be able to kill the Carapace in it's first phase.
FF XIV Random Community is sooo toxic, I can't belive it.
I played from Oktober 14 to June 15 World of Warcraft in just Random Raid, Normal and Hard Mode and the Community there can at least take 5-10 Wipes on a boss before some one talks about bad party.
In FF XIV, if you have one simple wipe, you have 1-2 ppl. leaving up to a party disband. -
11-27-2015, 07:08 AMTheodric
Whenever they do try and add punishing and complex mechanics to 'regular' content the backlash usually results in the challenge being eliminated altogether. I do agree that we need more 'middle tier' content. Unfortunately a lot of the content added during the expansion has been made redundant alarmingly quickly. Not a lot of players are willing to teach fresh blood how to tackle new and old encounters and so that doesn't help much either.
-
11-27-2015, 07:49 AMSir_Hermes
You say no mistakes allowed but my static farms this and I say average 2 people die per run lol sometime up to 6 and we still farm.
-
11-30-2015, 04:58 AMAsheloux
The NA community for FFXIV has no patience for anyone.
It's like the job market...you need to have experience to run the stuff but you can't gain experience unless you have it?
Let people learn.
The more people gear and the more people run stuff, the more they get it.
Not everyone is a hardcore player but that shouldn't exclude them from content they want to run. -
11-30-2015, 05:06 AMAlmalexia
Thordan EX is a remix of raid and trial content we have already experienced.
The difficulty is tuned precisely where it ought to be. It's just a shame there isn't more like it. -
11-30-2015, 06:50 PMFebrusI understand where you're coming from, but this isn't exactly fair. There is a "little league." It was all of the content leading up the HW expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge
It's not like Thordan Ex was the first Extreme Primal. Garuda, Ifrit, Titan, Levi, Ramuh, Shiva, Odin, King Mog, Bismark, and Ravana all lead up to this fight, and that's not even counting the Coils of Bahamut which have FAR more difficult mechanics than anything HW has to offer. It's true that Theordan doesn't require you to clear all of them to get in, but the fights are there to teach people how to go about doing "extreme" level content (especially the original 3, which are very adequately scaled in terms of difficulty and what they require, and subsequently teach, the players who finished them). That content was once the benchmark that taught a lot of us how to even play our jobs. Not to mention the fact that all of the new fights are just recycling old content.
Dragon's Gaze is basically Petrification from T7, only with a different effect. It has now been recycled in Therdan Ex, The Aetherochemical Research Facility, and Saint Mocianne's Arboretum, but it was originally found in T7. Players who ran that don't even hesitate to turn their backs on the boss when they get the prompt, because they have had plenty of experience with it. Lightning storm was taken straight out of Ramuh Ex, and then there's Dragons Rage which is a stand in for any stack mechanic that is found in a huge number of fights. The most reminiscent is T9's Iron Chariot/Thermionic Beam combo, because it follows almost the exact same dodge pattern (spread/avoid AoE > Stack in mid to split dmg > stay away from MT). Anyone who did T9 would find this very familiar, and that's just naming a few. It's gotten to the point now where almost every single mechanic in the game can be easily identified just by looking at it if you have actually played the content leading up to it, which SE has made even easier by allowing us to unsync old fights. They might change up the visual ques a little here and there, but it only takes one time for you to recognize it.
TL;DR: The point is, SE has given us the tools to teach ourselves how to adequately, or even optimally, play the Extreme content of the game. It is not their fault if players refuse to actually use those tools to their advantage.
The real issue is people que-ing in PF without this experience and still expecting to get through it, or even get carried by the rest of the group. In that regard, PF has always been a hostile environment in which you have to weed out the chaff to get clear. It has only gotten worse since HW's release, because new players skipped a ton of content and still think they're good enough to stand toe to toe with veterans (Bismark EX and Ravana Ex were utter hell to find an adequate PF for back when ilvl 175-180 was the average), but there's really nothing SE can do to change that. Thordan is already a PF only fight. It's up to the party leader to cut the dead weight when they see it. -
11-30-2015, 09:58 PMMisutoraru1 wipe half the party quitQuote:
Originally Posted by Cheraa
Wipe not becoz ppl don't know the mechanic, but becoz random ppl take time to cooperate
I never expected ppl do perfectly in DF, it take times for a DF party to get used to each other, but most of the time ppl just quit after 1wipe
Mostly we clear the fight at the end, even we got 1-2 wipe to begin with
Tbh doing with pub require patience, and that's what NA and EU community lacking -
12-01-2015, 03:13 AMenthauptetIt's pretty difficult to get parties together to run older content such as coil, also people that were/are good at it don't want to run it because they did it so much in the past - so it is hard to learn. Can't blame anybody for that. Also I agree, PF for bis, etc. is impossible. I started after HW had been out for 2 months already and nobody wanted to run bis ex with me so I could never get a clear as PF was always a disaster then disband. Anyway regarding Thordan, it's pretty fun. I wish I could get a group together for it again to run again as last time we had some people bail and all the groups in PF sound like a bunch of jerks with crazy requirements so I never want to join them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
-
12-01-2015, 03:41 AMFebrusYou're definitely right that old content is hard to get into these days, but it's also not impossible and definitely not dead. I agree with you that it's not as easy to get into these days, but I wouldn't say it's harder to learn. This is a community driven game. There's nothing to stop new players from banding together to run content, or even asking their FC to help them out. Not to mention that there are countless guides and such online to look up. All of the hard work of trail blazing has already done for them. If they would just slow down and play it, rather than trying to get to HW with lighting speed, it wouldn't be a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by enthauptet
Further, I see groups for old Ex runs and Coil runs in the PF all the time, usually unsyc'd. It's not the best way to learn, but it's better than nothing. Not to mention the fact that a lot of the PF locked fights are no longer restricted. The Coils have very slow ques, that's for sure, but Trials? Not at all. People still, to this day, insta-que for Titan Ex and Odin on my server. Odin, in particular has shown me how far of a difference in skill there is between new and older players. When Odin first came out, the majority of the players were pissed that he was so easy. Clears were common on day 1. Nowadays, go into that fight and it's filled with generation HW players who can't get a grasp on the simplest of Dps checks and mechanics. It's alarming. When you see that kind of party, you understand why HW Trials get such horrendous party applicants.
Side note: Your experience with Bismark Ex is a good example of why "gateway" fights are not always a good thing. I got to Bismark Ex pretty quickly (weeks, not months) after HW came out. Average item level was 175 at the time, and it was a nightmare trying to find a group capable of pushing the Dps check at that level. I did, in fact, find a group who could do it. It consisted entirely of veterans (generation HW players were far too weak in their jobs to know how to max their Dps) and we finally made it through after weeks of trying... and not one of us ever went back. What for? The fight is actually pretty boring, mechanics wise. The Tanks really have the only job in that fight, and the whole thing is just one, big, obstinate Dps check. By comparison, Ravana was far more fun and gave out WAY better rewards. So anyone who was late to the Bismark Ex clear party got stuck with a bunch of players who were new or players who never wanted to run it again because it was more pain than it was worth. -
12-05-2015, 10:18 AMAwfulI agree with this 110% there SHOULD be more trials that have this perfect balance of difficulty but as stated Yoshi P wants the next trial to be easier which to me is a real shame as it doesn't teach any of the new HW players who don't know their rotation, CDs, When/When not to heal. I'm still doing Thordan to this day with my FC and buddies because it's that great (and I want weapons).Quote:
Originally Posted by Almalexia
If the next trial is really easy, like faceroll easy then doing the next floors of Alex Savage or doing anything DF related will be more of a mess than it already is. -
12-06-2015, 03:52 AMCallbackI had to do Alex NM to get enough iLv to unlock the expert roulette. Also Void Ark is a big step between Expert and iLv190.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fevelle
The progression is 60 roulette > Alex NM > Expert > Void Ark > Everything else
Also Thordan EX is technically behind a wall of Ultima EX, tho you can cheese that undersized. I'd think if people did Ultima legit it should be gate enough that they at least have a clue what they're doing.
On the other hand experience with randoms varies a ton. I've been in groups where people ragequit immediately, and other groups where even tho the same tank kept falling off Levi EX 5 times in a row, everyone stuck with him until he got it right. Some people can't be helped, like the SMN who calls pomburner duty in chat then never interrupts a single flare, but others generally can be led to fix mistakes. Other people won't be as good as you. If you can't accept that and help them, I'm sure plenty of FC and linkshells are out there that could get you the failproof runs you want. -
12-08-2015, 07:47 PMKaenbyou
I think what killed the difficulty of the game the most is the unsync option, now a lot of people rushed older content in unsynch, face roll it and believe they are good without even learning the fight.
Just look at an unsynch shiva for exemple, no one does any mechanic (except for adds of course), it's just stand there and burn.
So new players join those end lvl content with their final coil downed in unsynch, Ex primal downed in unsynch and they're faced with the harsh reality, that this fight isn't unsynch and that you'll have to pull your weight through it.
Another culprit is the Alex NM, it's just so easy that it's pointless. I guess that locking thordan EX behind A1S down for exemple would be good enough. -
12-09-2015, 09:30 PMraelaIs there actually much to dodge on the Thordan divebombs? I just run to my spot then jump away when I get smacked.. no one has complained to me yet. D:Quote:
Originally Posted by Silica-chan
-
12-16-2015, 03:26 AMtechnoleYeah I think the unsync option was a bit a premature, basically they killed the difficulty of all ARR content in one night with that option. You get those whom face-rolled to their first Turn 13 clear as unsync and think they are high and mighty at the game. But eventually get a wake up call in current content. We've all seen it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaenbyou
The only saving grace with Thordan is the i190 minimum. I was hearing people whine about that "My law gear should be good enough". It's just insane people think they can just walk in everything in end-game content and clear something with little effort. Thordan takes time to learn, like real mechanics. Ones that can one-shot everyone if just one person fails. -
12-16-2015, 05:12 AMKaurieI would move Void Ark between Bismarck and Ravana - Unlike in Void Ark, you actually need to know mechanics to succeed in Ravana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morningstar1337
The jump between Ravana and A1S is also a bit too big imo -
12-16-2015, 05:25 AMKeluBehemoth
It's not that people can't learn content it really is that the majority don't want to.
They really DO want everything handed to them. People are already crapping their pants in speculation that the Anima relic (God forbid) may require an BISEX and RAVEX kill.
Theyre honestly destroying the MMORPG/RPG market in general. Intelligent people loved RPGs. Now they're so dumbed down they're not interesting to anyone above a 120IQ -
12-16-2015, 05:29 AMKeluBehemoth
So it's hard to have patience or even the care to teach when 99% don't even want to do better and just spam content 2000 times hoping to get carried.
-
12-17-2015, 03:27 PMKarlek
They could always introduce a dummy trial mechanic where people could learn mechanics instead of having to join groups of arrogant elitist No-Laws. It could be with 1 player and 7 NPCs who would follow mechanics perfectly. Youtube videos are not enough to prepare someone for mechanic-heavy dungeons and learning groups are few in between.