Remind me why we have to lose our spells/skills when level synced?

Ending up in Toto-rak/Tam-tara for the 1,000,000,000th time wouldn't be so bad if I could at least do more than spam one hotkey. I can't think of a decent reason why we can't have scaled down potencies on all our skills in level synced content.

"But that content wasn't tuned with those skills in mind"

I don't think level synced players care about how old content is tuned.

"But a newb might see all those flashy skills and be overwhelmed/jealous"

A newb will think "I can't wait to do those flashy skills myself!", and be more likely to invest time (read: sub-money) into leveling his character.

I can, however, think of immediate benefits to this.

-High level players more willing to queue for low level content, keeping queues lower for newbs.
-Not having to constantly switch out spells that get replaced (Stone III, Malefic II, etc)
-Not having to remember what was a good rotation at level xx
-Players constantly practicing their current rotation/skillset in ALL content will improve the playerbase.
-Shield Oath.

As long as they tune the potency to be relevantly low enough for the newbie to 'enjoy' the experience, I think it'd be fine.

The level sync makes me appreciate content when leveling new classes but obviously it's boring as hell when I'm doing it on my main :eek:

Probably one of the reasons I haven't done level synched content in a long time. Kept hitting buttons with nothing happening.

They are overpowered, even if "lowered" to the dungeon level.

full stop. Nobody is able to AOE is Satasha, so they set the dungeon in a certain way. open that up, MUSTSPEEDRUNAOEEVERYTHINGDOWNNAOYOURWASTINGMYTIME

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Originally Posted by pushin_tin

I can, however, think of immediate benefits to this.

-High level players more willing to queue for low level content, keeping queues lower for newbs.
-Not having to constantly switch out spells that get replaced (Stone III, Malefic II, etc)
-Not having to remember what was a good rotation at level xx
-Players constantly practicing their current rotation/skillset in ALL content will improve the playerbase.
-Shield Oath.

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this has my vote. but somehow I doubt they will ever do it :/

Implementing this would be rather complicated in the long run. They'd have to scale all the abilities down to such a degree that your DPS (or other capability) isn't significantly different from someone who is at level for the dungeon and not level-synced. When you consider that a level 41 character synced to Haukke Manor has a different suite of abilities than a level 35 one or a level 60 one, the actual scaling of the abilities would have to have a ton of variations and the like. You might not think that's important, but if they didn't scale the abilities properly, newer players would essentially be punished by the community. While people might not go so far as to kick them, a not insignificant number of people would likely bail on runs that didn't have sync'd DPS, and the lower roulettes are meant primarily to help these players, not make them feel marginalized.

They could do something like have the change only apply to level 60s, which would reduce the complexity of the necessary syncing system, but it'd still be quite a lot of work.

All that being said, I would seriously love to have access to central abilities like Lustrate on SCH, Shield Oath on PLD, or Gravity on AST at lower levels. MNK also feels really odd without Dragon Kick. I'm just not sure that they could ever implement this in a timely manner--and the time they spent working this out is time taken away from other development areas.

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Originally Posted by Echoloc

They are overpowered, even if "lowered" to the dungeon level.

full stop. Nobody is able to AOE is Satasha, so they set the dungeon in a certain way. open that up, MUSTSPEEDRUNAOEEVERYTHINGDOWNNAOYOURWASTINGMYTIME

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Quick Notch, Spread Shot and Fire II are available for sastasha. And even then, the low level dungeons themselves are so incredibly undertuned even at min ilvl, anyone that can cross physik/cure is (over)qualified to heal it.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Implementing this would be rather complicated in the long run. They'd have to scale all the abilities down to such a degree that your DPS (or other capability) isn't significantly different from someone who is at level for the dungeon and not level-synced. When you consider that a level 41 character synced to Haukke Manor has a different suite of abilities than a level 35 one or a level 60 one, the actual scaling of the abilities would have to have a ton of variations and the like. You might not think that's important, but if they didn't scale the abilities properly, newer players would essentially be punished by the community. While people might not go so far as to kick them, a not insignificant number of people would likely bail on runs that didn't have sync'd DPS, and the lower roulettes are meant primarily to help these players, not make them feel marginalized.

They could do something like have the change only apply to level 60s, which would reduce the complexity of the necessary syncing system, but it'd still be quite a lot of work.

All that being said, I would seriously love to have access to central abilities like Lustrate on SCH, Shield Oath on PLD, or Gravity on AST at lower levels. MNK also feels really odd without Dragon Kick. I'm just not sure that they could ever implement this in a timely manner--and the time they spent working this out is time taken away from other development areas.

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And just to add onto this, some classes become so much more less effective (or incredibly intolerable) until they reach a level threshold. DRGs suffer from IIDD (Impulsive Impulse Drive disorder) and MCH in teh 30-39 range is just godawful.

Problem would be that on one hand you would have lvl 60 players with tons of damaging and utility skills where on the other hand you would have newcomers with a handful of them.

And consider how "friendly" some people are to others in DF i cant imagine how things would turn out if this was added.

I agree with the OP so much, but like Alahra explained, I don't think such scaling would be possible with an adequate amount of development time.
Also, even if your skills are weak, they still provide an extreme advantage, like AoEs far below the level where these classes would actually learn them. Even scaled, it still means you can pull all the mobs together to burn them down in a manner that was not intended when the content was created.

But god is it annoying to just spam 1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1 once you already had access to all the other skills! x-x
Starting out with a new class is entirely different because you don't know yet how versatile it can be. But once you had all that fun spinning and hitting and casting and whatever, going back to doing one basic punch and nothing else is unnerving.

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Originally Posted by pushin_tin

Ending up in Toto-rak/Tam-tara for the 1,000,000,000th time wouldn't be so bad if I could at least do more than spam one hotkey. I can't think of a decent reason why we can't have scaled down potencies on all our skills in level synced content.

"But that content wasn't tuned with those skills in mind"

I don't think level synced players care about how old content is tuned.

"But a newb might see all those flashy skills and be overwhelmed/jealous"

A newb will think "I can't wait to do those flashy skills myself!", and be more likely to invest time (read: sub-money) into leveling his character.

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Because your LEVEL is reduced, and so your skill selection is reduce to what is available at that level.

I'll turn this around on you and wonder whether the poblem is that you are unable to adapt to the situation, take it as a challenge to knowyour job well enough to adapt your use of skills based on what is available, and what is needed. Imagine if future content includes status atracks that disable your use of certain skills, or temporarily restrict the level of skills available. How will you cope then?

Level sync places you on equal footingwith others in the dungeon, low level players don'thave access to hih level skills, so in the same dungeon why should you? Seems like something of an unbalanced advantage if you do. Plus there's nothing stopping you from running said dungeon without armor, with a group of friends, without level sync, you'd still have your skills, but no gear support...challenging.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'll turn this around on you and wonder whether the poblem is that you are unable to adapt to the situation, take it as a challenge to knowyour job well enough to adapt your use of skills based on what is available, and what is needed. Imagine if future content includes status atracks that disable your use of certain skills, or temporarily restrict the level of skills available. How will you cope then?

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On the off chance that this is actually a serious question, I fail to see how reverting to a playstyle I've already done before is "adapting". My issue is that that playstyle is needlessly boring.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

And just to add onto this, some classes become so much more less effective (or incredibly intolerable) until they reach a level threshold. DRGs suffer from IIDD (Impulsive Impulse Drive disorder) and MCH in teh 30-39 range is just godawful.

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I oddly enjoyed LNC *more* when all I had was Impulse Drive...when I got Full Thrust, I actually started having less fun. I never understood why. >.> But yes, some classes do have really lame stretches of levels, too. I can't stand to play BRD before 48 most of the time, either.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'll turn this around on you and wonder whether the poblem is that you are unable to adapt to the situation, take it as a challenge to knowyour job well enough to adapt your use of skills based on what is available, and what is needed. Imagine if future content includes status atracks that disable your use of certain skills, or temporarily restrict the level of skills available. How will you cope then?

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Context aside, this would be an utter nightmare to balance because of how some jobs become an utter joke without some of their abilities. WM and GB are the equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot without a dps increase if you don't have the other post 50-skills. MNK dps would nose dive more than others without GL3. And not to mention some abilities effectively replace others in a pecking order that you realistically have no reason to even have your (rather limited) skill bar. (Broil and Stone III for example)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Level sync places you on equal footingwith others in the dungeon, low level players don'thave access to hih level skills, so in the same dungeon why should you? Seems like something of an unbalanced advantage if you do. Plus there's nothing stopping you from running said dungeon without armor, with a group of friends, without level sync, you'd still have your skills, but no gear support...challenging.

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There's also the end of whether or not those high level skills would actually make a difference when the level of content we're talking about is incredibly trivial that a BLM crossing physick can heal it, and then it hits the other end of the spectrum when you're in the mid 30-40s. Does a BLM having access to blizzard III in brayflox really make that much of a difference?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Imagine if future content includes status atracks that disable your use of certain skills, or temporarily restrict the level of skills available. How will you cope then?

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Keep spamming 1? I don't exactly see how that is something one needs to learn..;)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Plus there's nothing stopping you from running said dungeon without armor, with a group of friends, without level sync, you'd still have your skills, but no gear support...challenging.

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I can run lvl 40+ dungeons naked by myself, doing Sastasha or Halatali with 4 naked lvl 60 people is not exactly "challenging" :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'll turn this around on you and wonder whether the poblem is that you are unable to adapt to the situation, take it as a challenge to knowyour job well enough to adapt your use of skills based on what is available, and what is needed. Imagine if future content includes status atracks that disable your use of certain skills, or temporarily restrict the level of skills available. How will you cope then?

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Sudden flashbacks to Salvage and Nyzul Isle in FFXI.

Nyzul Isle Party: "Floor 99, we're almost to the boss with 7 minutes to spare! Come on freeee flooooooor!"

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Welcome to Floor 99.
Use of all melee attacks restricted.
Eliminate all enemies.

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Nyzul Isle Party: " . . . "

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

snip

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The challenge of impulse drive spam instead of an actual full rotation? The challenge of spamming heavy shot and keeping up straight shot? The challenge of ninja's 2 move rotation?

No one's saying they're having trouble. They're saying it's needlessly annoying. Annoying =/= challenging.

I see this as being a bad idea as it would make things more difficult for new tanks.
Even if the abilities are scaled down it would be tough for a tank that doesn't even have their full enmity combo to hold against dps that are popping a bunch of off GCD abilities.
I've seen some tanks struggling to hold those mini bosses in Tam Tara with just the first two parts of their combos when the dps are more geared than they are.

You don't really need a tank to complete those early dungeons of course but speaking from my own experience while learning how to tank it's very discouraging when you can't do your job.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

I see this as being a bad idea as it would make things more difficult for new tanks.

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That's a good point, too. 30-40 is already somewhat rough on PLD (it's worst in Qarn, in my experience) because they lack Shield Oath. Over-zealous DPS can easily make a PLD's life pretty stressful, especially if they're not focusing targets. A NIN at 35 with Huton would be a nightmare for a PLD.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

I see this as being a bad idea as it would make things more difficult for new tanks.
Even if the abilities are scaled down it would be tough for a tank that doesn't even have their full enmity combo to hold against dps that are popping a bunch of off GCD abilities.
I've seen some tanks struggling to hold those mini bosses in Tam Tara with just the first two parts of their combos when the dps are more geared than they are.

You don't really need a tank to complete those early dungeons of course but speaking from my own experience while learning how to tank it's very discouraging when you can't do your job.

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Have to say I agree with this, for the very new players this could be difficult or overwhelming.

Regardless if they weakened down the skills to that level it would still make the long term players completly overpowered.And they'd just stomp all over new tanks to show off or so they can get through dungeon faster.
I think the main issue with lower level dungeons but with level 60 players having it so easy with all their skills in later level dungeons that they struggle in the low level dungeons to play their class properly with the tools provided

They are reducing your level to "sync" with a particular piece of content. So your character is reverted back to what a character at that level would have. Hope that clears up the concept of level sync for those that didn't understand.

its the reason i dont do low level content anymore , dont want to go back to the boring old rotations

I'd be happy enough to not have content take away my buffs if the content isn't below the level of my buffs. For instance, going into a level 50 trial like Titan Hard removes my Aetherflow stacks despite there not being a difference between the number of stacks at 50 and 60. That's kind of needlessly annoying.

Sorry but letting the lvl60 folks keep all of their abilities (even when tuned down) in the level synched dungeons will create more problems than it will solve. The lower levels are there to help the new players learn their classes/jobs. If we just steam roll with our overpowered abilities in then we're taking that away from them. It would create a whole slew of problems that we don't need as a community.

Really, the way it is now isn't that big of a deal nor is it that big of an imposition. By the time you hit level 60 you should have mastered your chosen job well enough to get you through 90%-95% of the game. You should be able perform well in any circumstance, including one where your level and skill arsenal is reduced. If you cannot perform to the best of your ability in those circumstances then maybe you should spend a bit more time mastering your class.

Picture an ilv150 DRG with an ilv 15 GLD in Sastasha and you'll have your answer

Have you tried tanking as a lowbie tank against synced DPS in the early levels (1-29)?

Now imagine someone Deathflare/Holy/Flare the entire group and you lose hate after 2 Flashes/Overpowers/Unleashes. Yeah... Not fun. Things will die faster and be better for the higher leveled player yes, but it would be a bad experience for the newbie tank who:
1) Won't get to practice tanking rotations
2) Will get crazy expectations when running with similar levelled players.

le awesome dragoon rotation

Impulse Drive -> Impulse Drive -> Impulse Drive -> Impulse Drive -> Impulse Drive -> Impulse Drive -> Impulse Drive -> Impulse Drive -> Impulse Drive

to the OP
I'll tell you why. the level sync is based on the feature introduced in FFXI. they only let you use your abilities for the level you synched to in that as well. I doubt they will change it. though I would support this change if they did it right(make it so the tanks didnt have such a hard time holding hate in lower level dungeons)

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Have you tried tanking as a lowbie tank against synced DPS in the early levels (1-29)?

Now imagine someone Deathflare/Holy/Flare the entire group and you lose hate after 2 Flashes/Overpowers/Unleashes. Yeah... Not fun. Things will die faster and be better for the higher leveled player yes, but it would be a bad experience for the newbie tank who:
1) Won't get to practice tanking rotations
2) Will get crazy expectations when running with similar levelled players.

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This is exactly why. The current sync doesn't do a perfect job, so we still end up much more powerful as a synced 60 than we would be in the best gear we had available at the dungeon's level. Give players access to full rotations, traits and buffs and there is no way the tank will be able to do his job or even learn anything, and the dungeon won't be played as intended.

I think the issue is tanks not having access to their main aggro holding skills. I know for a fact Dark Knight is gimped like no tomorrow pre 35 since you don't have blood price. But outside of that they eventually will have to alter the skills you get in older dungeons for later on. I think with maybe 4.0 more skills will be released and it will become more increasingly clustered to rerun the beginner content.

I like the system a lot.
Much more fun to do the dungeons this way than the "wow-way" to just speed through them with an friend that is high level.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

I think the issue is tanks not having access to their main aggro holding skills. I know for a fact Dark Knight is gimped like no tomorrow pre 35 since you don't have blood price. But outside of that they eventually will have to alter the skills you get in older dungeons for later on...

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In my experience Drk is still much better off than Pld sub 35. At least they still have unleash.

I practically had to spam flash to hold hate off two thaumaturges in Tam-Tara the other day. I may be new to tanking but I'm pretty sure that's not how it's supposed to be done. :p

It didn't help that one of them decided (after I told him it was my first time tanking!) that going ham the second I start running toward a mob was a great idea. And all he had to help him was fire II. I don't want to think about trying to hold off a Blm who's casting a full L60 rotation when I have a grand total of 3 hate generating abilities, one of which is second in a combo. :/

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Originally Posted by seekified

This is exactly why. The current sync doesn't do a perfect job, so we still end up much more powerful as a synced 60 than we would be in the best gear we had available at the dungeon's level.

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Because someone who is not synched don't have the perfect gear (capped on the max. ilevel of the dungeon). If the tank do Sastasha with a ilevel 16 weapon and all the other gear is between ilevel 14 and 17, then it shouldn't be a wounder that he can't hold aggro good against someone who have ilevel 19 (or whatever the max is in Sastasha) in all slots because of ilevel-synch with all the stats on cap (for the new ilevel). The tank would need the best gear for his level with materias in it.

The way to fix it is very easy. Reduce the maximal level of the dungeons.

I dislike grey skills as much as any other, but we have to keep new players in mind. It would be really dreadful for them to do the content while being at such disadvantage.

On the matter of tank stance - I don't know why tanks get so late in the game. They can tank since level 15, so they should have it since level 15. No matter how easy the content is, it is too harsh for tanks. Not to mention paladin's lack of aoe...

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Originally Posted by Felis

The way to fix it is very easy. Reduce the maximal level of the dungeons.

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But then we would have higher level players crying that it takes too long to finish...

Dude, I'd be ecstatic if they just fixed syncing so it wouldn't turn off persistent buffs when they're available at the level you get synced to.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I dislike grey skills as much as any other, but we have to keep new players in mind. It would be really dreadful for them to do the content while being at such disadvantage.

On the matter of tank stance - I don't know why tanks get so late in the game. They can tank since level 15, so they should have it since level 15. No matter how easy the content is, it is too harsh for tanks. Not to mention paladin's lack of aoe...

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Shield Oath should come at 15 with half the effect it has later, and then a trait could bump it to it's full effect.

Shield swipe should be made a small frontal cone (it is a swipe after all), and contribute to the enmity multiplier so it can be woven into your combos.

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Originally Posted by Avidria

I practically had to spam flash to hold hate off two thaumaturges in Tam-Tara the other day. I may be new to tanking but I'm pretty sure that's not how it's supposed to be done. :p

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That's pretty much exactly how it's done.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

That's pretty much exactly how it's done.

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Well that's unfortunate. :/

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Originally Posted by pushin_tin

I don't think level synced players care about how old content is tuned.

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It's not done for the sake of the level-synced players. It's for the sake of the regular on-level players who are partied with them. If higher leveled players had access to all their high level skills (even if some of those skills had a nerfed potency), there's no way an on-level player who doesn't even have those skills, at any potency, would be a match for them.

It's already bad enough that level sync doesn't really drop stats down to where they would be for on-level players. If not even the available skills were synced, there would be no way for any on-level player to actually take part in a dungeon unless they found an entire team of other on-level players to run it with.

While I don't necessarily think the system should be changed, I play on PS4 and set my hotbar up a certain way for ease at my current level, like I don't have blizz 1 on my PVE bar, and then im in for halatali NM or some low level GHR.... XD