Story Dungeons / Testing Solo DPS Mechanic

It dawned on me that a lot of people don't know they are bad. I made another thread about how they should include a self parser within the game but that would still depend on people using it.

So here is an additional idea - make some 4 man content (maybe the next expert dungeon?) that splits the 2 DPS away from the party. They then have 60 seconds to bring down what amounts to a target dummy. Failure to do so kills them and then additional monsters spawn with the party and the DPS is dead on the ground.

Now players would instantly realize if they in fact are bad at their job. Healers and Tanks already have mechanics that show them if they are bad. (Aggro is lost, someone dies). But DPS doesn't really because there are two DPS to the party.

The purpose isn't to deride people but the FIRST step to improvement is acknowledging what you are currently doing is sub par.

So if the tank and healer was in a group where the dps failed to bring down the Dummy Mob and insta-drops, what happens to the DPS?

A personal dps meter isn't a bad idea. DPS check in dungeons aren't bad. But potentially holding the tank and healer hostage or making the DPS queues even worse are bad.

This would be a good idea, but how would we factor in the fact that not all DPS are made equal? Two monks would probably fare just fine, but two machinists? Not so well.

Also, how would we factor in gear? You could have a good DPS that isn't well enough geared to pass the check, or two DPS that are so overgeared that their "inadequate" combo still gets the job done.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

So if the tank and healer was in a group where the dps failed to bring down the Dummy Mob and insta-drops, what happens to the DPS?

A personal dps meter isn't a bad idea. DPS check in dungeons aren't bad. But potentially holding the tank and healer hostage or making the DPS queues even worse are bad.

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What happens if the healer fails to heal? Essentially giving responsibility to DPS just like the game already does it for tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by Amiaze

This would be a good idea, but how would we factor in the fact that not all DPS are made equal? Two monks would probably fare just fine, but two machinists? Not so well.

Also, how would we factor in gear? You could have a good DPS that isn't well enough geared to pass the check, or two DPS that are so overgeared that their "inadequate" combo still gets the job done.

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It wouldn't be perfect but it could also be designed class specific. I'm also not expecting 'perfect rotation' required even at min gear for the instance. It should still be progress-able. And if it works in expert roloutte versions could be rolled out on raid content.

I wouldn't mind something like Maat from ffxi, Proving Grounds in WoW, or Infernal Council from SWTOR . In all cases those were designed around your class doing things your class is supposed to do.

My only concern is SE would still just make them facerollable. In theory job quests are supposed to fill that role, but only a handful of them actually prevent completion for lolzing through the intended mechanics.

Same problem with guildhests. A tutorial that people can carry you through is pretty pointless, and there are only 1 or 2 that you can't carry in.

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Originally Posted by Amiaze

Also, how would we factor in gear? You could have a good DPS that isn't well enough geared to pass the check, or two DPS that are so overgeared that their "inadequate" combo still gets the job done.

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Require equipping a special "training set" before participating, maybe. Locked in combat as soon as it starts to prevent gear swapping. Or ilvl sync. I dunno what the best solution might be, but there are any number of ways to account for that.

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Originally Posted by Alex_Lenderson

What happens if the healer fails to heal? Essentially giving responsibility to DPS just like the game already does it for tanks and healers.

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Healer fails to heal, the tank dies group wipes. However, provided that the dps do enough damage to kill whatever's beating the tank before the tank dies, everything is gravy.

Separating the DPS into a separate place (or so) and have the tank/healer twiddling their thumbs until the DPS return or a new legion of mobs show up seems...excessive.

Actually I like the idea of advanced job quests. They don't give you abilities but maybe glamour gear and title? Heck they could create an in game leader board with clear times and everything. :)

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

Healer fails to heal, the tank dies group wipes. However, provided that the dps do enough damage to kill whatever's beating the tank before the tank dies, everything is gravy.

Separating the DPS into a separate place (or so) and have the tank/healer twiddling their thumbs until the DPS return or a new legion of mobs show up seems...excessive.

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Healer and tank would still be on boss fighting they aren't just twiddling!

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Originally Posted by Alex_Lenderson

Healer and tank would still be on boss fighting they aren't just twiddling!

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So while Tank and Healer are on the boss, DPS leave to kill a dummy and if they fail, additional mobs show and murder the tank and healer? So this is no different than a normal dps check?

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Originally Posted by Amiaze

This would be a good idea, but how would we factor in the fact that not all DPS are made equal? Two monks would probably fare just fine, but two machinists? Not so well.

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I was in qarn yesterday, level 37 MCH with all HQ gear of the highest level I could equip. I was in the locked off adds solo each time.. And each time, despite me getting right to dps, the aoes went off. :( maybe if I had held off CDs just for those adds..

..yeah, punishment for DPS when jobs are not equal isn't the way to do it. As much fun as dps quarantine mechanics would be for good dps, it could be a nightmare for the rest of the party in bad situations..

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Originally Posted by raela

I was in qarn yesterday, level 37 MCH with all HQ gear of the highest level I could equip. I was in the locked off adds solo each time.. And each time, despite me getting right to dps, the aoes went off. :( maybe if I had held off CDs just for those adds..

..yeah, punishment for DPS when jobs are not equal isn't the way to do it. As much fun as dps quarantine mechanics would be for good dps, it could be a nightmare for the rest of the party in bad situations..

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Wait until they lock and start casting to use your important moves. They have crazy damage mitigation until the cast actually starts.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Wait until they lock and start casting to use your important moves. They have crazy damage mitigation until the cast actually starts.

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I did. Only thing I didn't do was save CDs to hit them, because on other jobs I've never had that worry.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

So while Tank and Healer are on the boss, DPS leave to kill a dummy and if they fail, additional mobs show and murder the tank and healer? So this is no different than a normal dps check?

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The difference is that it isn't 2 DPSs (plus tank and healer dmg) on a DPS check. It forces the DPS to only rely on themselves to meet the check. Failing wouldn't be an instant wipe however it would provide immediate feedback to the DPS along the lines of "OK... I'm doing something wrong, let me see how I can fix it." I truly believe a large chunk of the place base has no idea how effective they really are.

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Originally Posted by Alex_Lenderson

The difference is that it isn't 2 DPSs (plus tank and healer dmg) on a DPS check. It forces the DPS to only rely on themselves to meet the check. Failing wouldn't be an instant wipe however it would provide immediate feedback to the DPS along the lines of "OK... I'm doing something wrong, let me see how I can fix it." I truly believe a large chunk of the place base has no idea how effective they really are.

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While a sound reasoning, I can only see this going terribly.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

While a sound reasoning, I can only see this going terribly.

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Terrible in what way? Players having to actually improve and being held accountable when they decide to do group content? Yes, there are plenty of players that do not care about their dps. They know that no matter what, they will be able to complete whatever they are doing either due to the content just not being challenging enough or because they know they will be able to get carried. The problem is that unless the OPs suggestion has some meaningful reward at the end, it'll be content that is ignored.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

Terrible in what way? Players having to actually improve and being held accountable when they decide to do group content? Yes, there are plenty of players that do not care about their dps. They know that no matter what, they will be able to complete whatever they are doing either due to the content just not being challenging enough or because they know they will be able to get carried. The problem is that unless the OPs suggestion has some meaningful reward at the end, it'll be content that is ignored.

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I'm suggesting adding it as one of the required story dungeons that will be put on expert roulette. To clarify you can still get carried. (Other DPS downs theirs and then tank just holds on to adds and healer keeps 'em alive). I really don't see it as being a requirement to get to content I see it as something almost everyone will end up doing and then the 'ah ha' moment will kick in and the dps will release for the first time that they in fact are not holding their weight.

Didn't they already do this with A4's Emergency Quarantine? They'll eventually use the mechanic again at some point in a dungeon; just as they have with the coils. O:

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Require equipping a special "training set" before participating, maybe. Locked in combat as soon as it starts to prevent gear swapping. Or ilvl sync. I dunno what the best solution might be, but there are any number of ways to account for that.

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Originally Posted by raela

I was in qarn yesterday, level 37 MCH with all HQ gear of the highest level I could equip. I was in the locked off adds solo each time.. And each time, despite me getting right to dps, the aoes went off. :( maybe if I had held off CDs just for those adds..

..yeah, punishment for DPS when jobs are not equal isn't the way to do it. As much fun as dps quarantine mechanics would be for good dps, it could be a nightmare for the rest of the party in bad situations..

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Considering these two, here is my proposal:

Create an optional dungeon that can only be undertaken with a predetermined gear set. The dungeon is designed as nothing more than a number of rooms with DPS checks that become harder as your progress, with each check offering a reward such as a glamour, or perhaps a crafting item. This way, the person in question can test to see where their problem areas are and whether or not they're against boss-type enemies (the boss itself would dole out considerably less damage) or groups of enemies. I would imagine that this dungeon could be run solo, but would not be job-restricted (in case healers or tanks wanted to see how they would fare against the same enemies for comparison).

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Alex_Lenderson

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Sticking a required DPS check in a story dungeon that is designed to make bad DPS realize they are bad will either stonewall people who are not being tested or waste the time of those who don't have to be.

If you want a required DPS check to force bad dps to realize they are bad, I would suggest a proving grounds situation like WoW did (still does? Not sure really) that a player has to do in order access the Heroic dungeons for that particular role. DPS would have to output a certain amount of dps before they can do expert roulette or something, Tanks have to be able to maintain aggro for x amount of minutes while NPC dps kill a series of mobs, healers gotta make sure each player maintains X% of health for the duration of a trail. Things like that.

A dps check in the middle of a required dungeon with other people involved...no I personally feel that would just cause more harm than good.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimate3

Sticking a required DPS check in a story dungeon that is designed to make bad DPS realize they are bad will either stonewall people who are not being tested or waste the time of those who don't have to be.

If you want a required DPS check to force bad dps to realize they are bad, I would suggest a proving grounds situation like WoW did (still does? Not sure really) that a player has to do in order access the Heroic dungeons for that particular role. DPS would have to output a certain amount of dps before they can do expert roulette or something, Tanks have to be able to maintain aggro for x amount of minutes while NPC dps kill a series of mobs, healers gotta make sure each player maintains X% of health for the duration of a trail. Things like that.

A dps check in the middle of a required dungeon with other people involved...no I personally feel that would just cause more harm than good.

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Let's turn this logic on its head.

"Stick a healer check (all parties) in DF and it will do more harm than good."

If a healer is epic fail then the group fails. If the tank is epic fail the group might fail. If the DPS is epic fail... just takes longer. And the DPS will never know they have something they need to work on.

I think this should be a trial thing that all classes should have as an optional idea. Take the part about splitting two DPS and having them fight the dummy and kill it in under 60 seconds. Make optional trials for people level 60 (doable once every week or so regardless of class) that scale based on item level and reward you with perhaps something like Eso tomes that don't count toward the weekly cap. For example the dummy would have less HP for an i170 than an i190.

Yes, you could argue people would merely tweak their item levels until they can hit the check but if the hp thresholds are designed that the person has to do their standard rotation perfectly for at least 40 seconds it would be something. For heals or tanks it could be similar such as having to hold aggro off a dummy group for 60 seconds with no more than 1 or 2 switches while mitigating x amount of damage and for healers keeping an NPC alive (similar to Estinien in Aery) while killing various adds that spawn. These things would be optional but the benefits of doing them weekly would be incentive for even the more casual players to try and step their game up.

I usually would only be for mandatory DPS tests before you enter "harder", optional content (Alex Normal, EX primals).
But lately I have been in like 3 Bismarck HM groups, that were unable to clear the double-snake DPS check, despite every time having at least 2 of the DPS synced, despite me putting up Cleric Stance SCH DoTs on both of them (can't really do more DPS till at least one dies, the damage coming out is not solo-healable), and despite LB1 being used on the second snake...

It's really frustrating when you have to sit for almost an hour in content that just WON'T get cleared, and you can't even tell who the underperformer is because LADIE-FUCKING-DA parsers are forbidden. GJ SE.

This seems like a good idea to me.

To the person saying that this would make dps queues worse and allow dps to hold tanks and healers hostage....how so?

Tanks and healers can already hold the group hostage themselves. DPS have to go wherever the wind blows. If anything, dps knowing they would have an individual check on their damage would be scared into switching to tank or healer, which would alleviate queues by reducing the number of dps and increasing the number of healers/tanks.

Two DPS, ones decent the others terrible but doesn't know it. Get tot his DPS check Idea. Decent DPS is pushing numbers required, terrible player is vastly underperforming, because they are terrible. DPS check fails. Terrible DPS blames the good DPS because, ya know, ego. Has been unknowingly carried through all content prior, so in their mind can't be them.

AKA, terrible DPS blames decent DPS for failure because Terrible DPS's EGO is too big to even imagine they failed. So must be the other players fault.

Having 1 for each DPS would show better.

SWToR had an interesting boss fight in one of their raids. was a mini boss for each player (you couldn't help others) with varying levels of HP. DPS took the highest HP ones, tanks the mid, healers the lowest (or it could have been the reverse of tanks and healers, been a while XD ).

Some of you people are seriously obsessed with this whole DPS thing. I'm not even being facetious or hyperbolic. You're obsessed.

Every time I come to these forums, there's threads, and post upon post of people going on about needing a parser. I've seen threads that have nothing to do with any of that, somehow get dragged into "why XIV needs a parser".

You're obsessed.

"Numbers!!!! Numbers!!! It's all about the numbers!!! I must know the numbers!!! Give me the numbers!!! All that matters are the numbers!!! I don't care that we're downing the enemies and clearing the content! That's not what matters! What's matters is the numbers!!! Numbers, SE! We need the numbers!!"

Are welogging into a game, or a Graphical Online Math Simulator?

With how outright obsessed - and calling it obsessed is not an exaggeration at this point - some people are with needing to know the numbers(!) around here, does anyone really believe that these people want them provided for purely benevolent reasons, and that it won't be abused, or used as a divisive way to separate the community?

And don't say "no no, we won't abuse it like that!", when people are freely suggesting wanting it as "a way to know who the bad players are". People are already showing their intentions, and don't even know it. It's like a kid standing with one hand in a cookie jar, insisting he's not trying to take a cookie.

People are insisting the abuse won't happen. Thing is... it already is happening. People already find ways to divide the community and play the "us vs them" game in this community. People are already using the unofficial parser to bash other players and tell them how bad they are, and/or kick them from groups. That cat is already out of the bag, and saying it "won't happen" is moot. It already does happen. No need for SE to support and endorse the behavior by giving them an official one.

Besides, those who really "must know the numbers!!!" ("for their own benefit"... of course), already have a way to find out. Yes, I know, it's not permitted, so you can't openly tell someone how bad your parser numbers say they are without risk to your account. There's demonstrably good reason for that.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

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People like you are totally obsessed with preventing full information from reaching players.

I won't go over your "possible abuse" arguments, as that's COMPLETELY irrelevant. If abuse happens it needs to be handled by SE. We should not be denied good things just because some rotten apples might abuse it! Those will find a way to bash others with or without a parser.

And yes, we NEED to know who the bad players in a group are when content is not getting cleared! You can easily see it when tanks suck, you can easily see it when healers suck, but you CAN'T see it when DPS suck. Why should people spend an hour bashing their heads against a DPS check with 0 progress, eventually disbanding the whole party instead of just removing the problem (either telling the underperformer how to do it better, or kicking them - this already happens to tanks and healers)?

And of course the main questions I ask people like you:
Why are tanks and healers expected to perform at 120% of their job requirements?
Why can DPS get by with less than 20% of their job requirements (outside of like 2 mandatory trials, and a bunch optional ones)?

Bad DPS players should just play as tanks. At least they'd make up for their would-be terrible DPS by giving other competent DPS players shorter queues.

And they might just learn how bad it is for a tank and healer when there are bad DPS.

But hey doesn't matter. SE prioritizes players who can't be bothered to learn the game they painstakingly designed to those who actually love and bother to learn how to play the game.

Imagine if Dark Souls was constantly changed to become easier and easier to cater to people who can't be bothered to learn or improve. Instead of making them want to play your game more, you're only going to push those who loved your game for the challenge away.

New players aren't an infinite resource. When the number of players leaving your game start growing larger, you will get a situation like many other popular titles before where older players leave and refuse to return because it is not the same game they were promised anymore.

I think mostly the way they do things is fine. As long as SE is putting the DPS checks near the front of the fights and not at the end. They usually have been pretty good about that with things like Shiva Golems, Bismark chitin, and Faust. Let groups know straight away whether their dps is up to par or not.

The rest comes down to just making lots of content at various skill levels so everyone is having fun. This is the part SE is failing at super hard. SE seems content just releasing 2 cakewalk dungeons and a cakewalk raid every 4-5 months. I can see this ending badly, as half the subscribers are going to get bored of this pretty quick. Heavensward should have given people more endgame options, not taking the one thing we had and making it pointless after a few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

I think mostly the way they do things is fine. As long as SE is putting the DPS checks near the front of the fights and not at the end.

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I'm good with the DPS check being in the front of a fight... as long as the DPS's are split and doing it solo. The entire point is to make sure the DPS has some legit feedback loop that tells them if they need to improve or not.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

NumbERS!!!!

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We already have a feedback loop for healers and tanks. Why don't you want one for DPS?

Hate to bump my own thread but I really like the idea.

Could do what WoW did and have trials that you have to pass in order to queue for expert dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Some of you people are seriously obsessed with this whole DPS thing. I'm not even being facetious or hyperbolic. You're obsessed.

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I won't say you're wrong. As a matter of fact, I agree with you. But I think that this thread is one of the most constructive "DPS" threads created in quite a while now. The reason that I, personally, would like to see this sort of thing implemented is because I don't know how well I'm doing. I'm used to healing and tanking on the side, and so long as my party members don't die, I know I've done my job well. Anything else is excess. But as a DPS, I have no clue if I'm doing well or not. I can stun a few enemies if I notice the tank is having a hard time surviving a pull, or push something away if we're not currently attacking it and it's threatening to kill us. I'm on PS4, so unless someone on PC is willing to parse me, I have no idea if I'm doing a bad job or not without this sort of thing implemented. I don't care a single bit how other people are doing, but I do want to know that I'm personally doing okay.

On a side note, as much as I don't like it, I've come to terms with the fact that this game wants you to DPS. It just...does. Replaying the story, I found myself dreading certain MSQ instances as a tank or healer because those fights were just DPS checks. I knew I would be sitting there a long time, whittling away an enemy's health because my role wasn't designed to actually kill things. Your fight alongside Haucherfant during the Inquisitor story arc proves that, in my opinion. Even earlier GLA quests don't really want you to tank. Try taking on some of those mobs with no cross-classed abilities and you'll likely die. You're really just DPSing while Aldis and other NPCs take enmity from most of the enemies, and someone cures them.

Anyway, back on topic. SE has already stated that there will be some sort of self-parser implemented in ways of a training ground, haven't they? I'm new to MMOs, but I know that Yoshi P. isn't. He's apparently designed a lot of FFXIV to act like past MMOs, so how do you guys think it will function? I think a personalized dungeon would be best, but something tells me it'll be more of an open area (possibly linked to FC housing that only FC members can access).

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

Could do what WoW did and have trials that you have to pass in order to queue for expert dungeons.

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Good idea too!