How to keep old contents relevant

Why not require people to acquire mats from older instances in order to obtain the endgame gears? Instead of awarding a piece of gear straight up, make it so that people only get a unique material (from alex nm and alex savage) and then have to obtain other common mats from older fights like levi ex or turn 8, then craft or exchange all the required mats for said gear. This will keep older contents relevant for as long as the game is around.

Ponies and glamours are not enough incentives for the masses to go back into these older instances. Five years from now, if an i1000 piece of gear requires mats from titan ex, people will still have to do titan ex in order to obtain it. The game will feel a lot "livelier" since there's always a lot for everyone to do. It will be sort of a grind just like how we have to grind 2 dungeons for eso every week right now, but at least we get to do something other than just running two dungeons.

Of course, all fights should be level synced to prevent people from one shotting the mobs and provide a challenge.

Or just add weekly bonus for the first run of the specific dungeon/trial.

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Originally Posted by OmegaFlare

Ponies and glamours are not enough incentives for the masses to go back into these older instances. Five years from now, if an i1000 piece of gear requires mats from titan ex, people will still have to do titan ex in order to obtain it. The game will feel a lot "livelier" since there's always a lot for everyone to do. It will be sort of a grind just like how we have to grind 2 dungeons for eso every week right now, but at least we get to do something other than just running two dungeons.

Of course, all fights should be level synced to prevent people from one shotting the mobs and provide a challenge.

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And people will likely begrudge the fact that they've had to farm Titan EX for 7 years. It'd probably be good for them to be a source, but they shouldn't be the only source.

Eh, they should just make a roulette that gives eso that takes you back to the old content. Then you could do it if you wanted and get a nice little bonus for it, but wouldn't be forced to do so. Frankly, I have no desire to run WP or AK for the 2,000th time-- being forced to run old content just because is lame.

i don't get why they are so afraid of crafting and the economy.

you know what was good, the original relic quest that got your i80 weapon.

it's a quest so that you still have to kill stuff, you have mats that drop from a dungeon, you have materia that is obtained by spiritbonding. you mix all the parts of the game to make something useful. and you can have a lot of that stuff sold on the marketboard so lazy people don't have to get everything themselves.

the best items in the game should be made from trade-ins, that require 1 drop from difficult content + 1 crafted piece.

the crafted piece should use materials from
- folklore gathering OR aetherial reduction
- DF chest drop
- NPC catalyst

any 2 of
- treasure map drop
- hunt seal trade-in
- uncapped tomestone trade-in
- desynthesis
- rare FATE trade-in (Odin, Behemoth, Coeurlregina, etc)

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

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Yeah, no thanks. I don't play to farm gil or craft, those are just things I don't personally enjoy. Some crafters charge over a 150-300% markup on items, part of that blame lies on SE due to the costly nature of leveling and gearing those classes, but there's still some greedy crafters out there. Can't say I blame them though, gil is gil. I'd be fine if I could obtain the item through normal progression, and then pay a crafter (or ask an friend who has crafters leveled up) 50-100k, that's something I can make in less than an hour of killing mobs, but otherwise I'm completely against the idea. I really don't understand why crafters want a hand in PvE progression so much, gil? That can't be it, I constantly hear about them making 100s of millions of gil even after Heavensward launched. I mean, PvE players do PvE activities to progress their PvE classes. Why can't dedicated crafters be satisfied with that?

This is very off topic though. How to make content relevant? Throw it into a roulette and add Esoterics, simple as that. Primal EX roulette would require prior completion of all Extremes, and possibly only have outdated primals (1+ patch old). Same for CT and future 24 man raids, Alexander and future normal mode raids, etc.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Yeah, no thanks. I don't play to farm gil or craft

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you don't have to farm gil or craft, make some friends. and you get to clear content to progress. FATEs, Tomestones, Seals, DF drops, Treasure Maps are all acquired from PVE content.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I mean, PvE players do PvE activities to progress their PvE classes. Why can't dedicated crafters be satisfied with that?

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because PVE content is where 90% of the development cost goes to. "dedicated crafting" has almost no content.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

This is very off topic though. How to make content relevant? Throw it into a roulette and add Esoterics

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Esoterics is too easy to cap as it is. that's a completely useless suggestion.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

you don't have to farm gil or craft, make some friends. and you get to clear content to progress. FATEs, Tomestones, Seals, DF drops, Treasure Maps are all acquired from PVE content.

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I did already consider asking a friend, but if everyone were to ask their crafter friend what would its purpose serve exactly? Why not just have the ability to turn it into a NPC with the other item? Or is it just that is what the system is currently, but instead of improving how it's obtained, they introduce further RNG and needlessly shove crafters into it? That doesn't seem like a solution for either side to me.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

because PVE content is where 90% of the development cost goes to. "dedicated crafting" has almost no content.

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And how would a material obtained from PvE content add content to crafting classes? All I can see it doing is funneling more gil into their pockets, what purpose does it serve? If they want to utilize PvE drops in crafting, then it's already possible with gear that isn't the best of the best, and those things sell tons (hell I make the majority of my gil selling random drops to crafters). Should crafters be able to make better gear slightly weaker than Eso (or on par with un-upgraded eso if it's very costly), sure. But the best gear? No, the best gear should be obtained from PvE and solely from PvE. I'm sure the majority of crafters wouldn't appreciate it if they had to run Alexander Savage to obtain their AF2 gear.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

Esoterics is too easy to cap as it is. that's a completely useless suggestion.

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No, it gives variety to obtaining Esoterics and allows people to pick and choose what content they wish to do. That means more people queuing for all content, and not just whatever raid happens to have the particular item that's needed. It also doesn't lead to frustration over running content you don't want to do.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

Esoterics is too easy to cap as it is. that's a completely useless suggestion.

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Law is easy. Esoterics is kinda normal. We have a cap anyway, so the capping time is kinda irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

but if everyone were to ask their crafter friend what would its purpose serve exactly?

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the purpose is to make this one game, not 3 different ones. DoW and DoH and DoL are all part of the same game. don't ask your "crafter friend", ask your raid Healer to do it because your Healer also crafts.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Why not just have the ability to turn it into a NPC with the other item?

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that's what the last step is.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

but instead of improving how it's obtained, they introduce further RNG and needlessly shove crafters into it? That doesn't seem like a solution for either side to me.

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there could be less RNG this way.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I'm sure the majority of crafters wouldn't appreciate it if they had to run Alexander Savage to obtain their AF2 gear.

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they don't have to run Savage if they don't want to, they can buy the mat from someone who does. you keep saying how they hoard gil, this is how people who like to raid can get gil back from people who don't raid and spend more of their time crafting.

the point is for people like you to stop talking about it as if Crafters can't do Raids and Raiders can't craft. both of those things are obviously not true and obviously not how this game is designed.

and Raiders don't need to do FATEs, and Raiders don't do Treasure Maps, and Raiders don't do Hunts. the suggestion is to get more people to do more things, so that less people complain about no content.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

It also doesn't lead to frustration over running content you don't want to do.

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that's what gil should be for.

Are we sure we want to keep old content relevant in this context? Veteran players are bound to get paired up with new players who are just learning their roles and, from what I've experienced firsthand and heard tons of stories concerning, veterans are anything but nice towards new players. A lot of people ran those dungeons countless times during the Relic questline grind and aren't exactly keen on doing it again.

Heck, I went into Brayflox NM the first time last night on my alternate character, a low-level Paladin, and was scolded by an antsy 120+ dragoon for taking the time to kill mobs rather than skip them. And I wasn't the only person in there who needed the experience; there was an astrologian who was still wearing a cowl and was in his 30s.

And for material farming, why wouldn't players just run the dungeons solo? I know I've done it when I wanted gear drops for classes I was leveling, and I'm only a machinist. I was able to clear Aurum Vale alone with only one Alexander drop.

I think the only passable way to keep old content going would be to just add more experience bonuses to them. That would, hopefully, encourage veterans who are leveling lower classes to go in there and show some ounce of humility since they aren't in endgame gear or level 50-60 yet.

For most veteran players, helping a new player once a blue moon isn't a problem. Back in FFXI, if someone needed to down shadow lord, there was always someone around to help out. The resentment in FFXIV:ARR isn't towards the new player, but the content itself. We are required to run the content so much in this game that most of it becomes a chore to do. It's not that they hate the new player. The vet has to do the content whether he likes to or not in order to advance.

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Originally Posted by Amiaze

And for material farming, why wouldn't players just run the dungeons solo? I know I've done it when I wanted gear drops for classes I was leveling, and I'm only a machinist. I was able to clear Aurum Vale alone with only one Alexander drop.

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they could sure. more options is not bad. people are not going to Titan EX solo when 2 people get Gaol'd.

right now i have no incentive to run Aurum Vale solo.

i would duo and trio lots of the old content if there are reasons to that's not just glamour.

Maybe the better question is "how do you make content that continues to be interesting to players long after its release?" I think going back to make finite changes to pieces of content under the current system is pointless because the act of renewing content in such a way is as unsustainable as simply adding another new dungeon corridor. The content needs some way to alter or change itself in respect to party composition or by shuffling "dungeon tiles" and "encounter cards" to create a somewhat randomized dungeon experience.

This will only go 2 ways.

Veterans will just team up together for fast speed runs.
Veterans will go in threw duty finder and make things go faster.

You do also have the middle ground where people will team up with inexperienced players. But this is less likely.

People hate being forced back to old content. Wer in an expansion right now screw the old stuff in 2.0 just make 3.x relevant or more so.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

For most veteran players, helping a new player once a blue moon isn't a problem. Back in FFXI, if someone needed to down shadow lord, there was always someone around to help out. The resentment in FFXIV:ARR isn't towards the new player, but the content itself. We are required to run the content so much in this game that most of it becomes a chore to do. It's not that they hate the new player. The vet has to do the content whether he likes to or not in order to advance.

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this guy gets it.

How to keep old content relevant?

Easy;

1. make Level sync actually bite
2. add an extra (and hard to beat) Boss to the dungeon when all players are level 50 or higher
3. since level sync will be worth a damn, give XP
4. make drop(s) from said boss relevant to the level 50-60 players, rare mats or something similar such as the drops from the top tier treasure maps.

Other than that keep everything else more or less the same. This makes the older dungeons worth doing.

When I first came to FFXIV one of the things that held huge promise -as far as I could see - was the idea of level syncing players in dungeons. I thought that this would be a great way to prevent player fatigue because it would help older content remain challenging - to a point. Unfortunately, level sync seems not to be strong enough - or consistent enough - to achieve that intent, and players can still effectively overgear older content and speed run it right into player burnout territory when farming things.

I'd far rather see a much stricter level sync to prevent speed run farming and slow folks down a bit, but at the same time increased drop rates to compensate for the additional time taken. In my opinion, this would reduce the number of times people blow through content while farming, and long term might reduce the burnout rate among higher level players.

An alternate way would be leaving level sync as is, but add a new difficulty mode to the older dungeons where all the trash mobs and Bosses are upgraded one or more tiers (each tier being 5 levels maxing out the dungeon20 levels above it's original). Of course this would require the dungeon drops to re-scale as well, but you can't tell me that's hard to do when all the gear and item lists are listed in rough ilvl/player level order any way. This way you could run Sastasha as if it were level 36 if you wanted to, or Arum vale as if it were level 69. Yeah, you want a challenge? Try AV at lvl 69 and see what happens even if you're unsync'd. Allow the dungeon to grant XP based on the relative player level to the effective level of the dungeon and what sync options were chosen.

The key thing about both these ideas is to make the drops worth it, and to allow XP to be earned.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Maybe the better question is "how do you make content that continues to be interesting to players long after its release?" I think going back to make finite changes to pieces of content under the current system is pointless because the act of renewing content in such a way is as unsustainable as simply adding another new dungeon corridor. The content needs some way to alter or change itself in respect to party composition or by shuffling "dungeon tiles" and "encounter cards" to create a somewhat randomized dungeon experience.

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How would you feel if the dungeons were not quite so farmable, you could not run them so quickly (because they retain some difficulty, not simply because of artificial speed-bumps that prevent mass pulls), but the drops were better/drop at a better rate? That way you would not run the content so many times or so often, and there would be more challenge to that content.

The way I see it if we could do something to reduce the frequency with which these dungeons are run, but increase the worth of doing them appropriately, we would refuce fatigue and burnout, and reduce the feeling of it being a chore.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Maybe the better question is "how do you make content that continues to be interesting to players long after its release?" I think going back to make finite changes to pieces of content under the current system is pointless because the act of renewing content in such a way is as unsustainable as simply adding another new dungeon corridor. The content needs some way to alter or change itself in respect to party composition or by shuffling "dungeon tiles" and "encounter cards" to create a somewhat randomized dungeon experience.

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While I'm definitely in favor of at least some randomized dungeon content, I could see there being pushback from people that just want to go in, get their tomestones, and get out as quickly as possible. It would probably end up being entirely optional, and if it is I don't know how many people would run it.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

the purpose is to make this one game, not 3 different ones. DoW and DoH and DoL are all part of the same game. don't ask your "crafter friend", ask your raid Healer to do it because your Healer also crafts.

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I said crafter friend because he just happens to mostly do crafting while doing one DREX a day on his main. As it stands, it is "one game", crafters can make a lot of things players utilize. Gear, glamour and furniture are all very valuable and sell quite fast.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

there could be less RNG this way.

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Explain how it's less RNG when instead of hoping your token or gear piece drops, you now have to hope it drops and hope the material drops too? That's not even the end of it, you'll have to roll against several other players for the material.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

the point is for people like you to stop talking about it as if Crafters can't do Raids and Raiders can't craft. both of those things are obviously not true and obviously not how this game is designed.

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I'm entirely aware of that, but a lot of complaints about being unable to produce the best PvE gear have been made by those who mostly crafter, but this is from my own experience so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

and Raiders don't need to do FATEs, and Raiders don't do Treasure Maps, and Raiders don't do Hunts. the suggestion is to get more people to do more things, so that less people complain about no content.

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There's plenty of content in this game, it's just people don't want to do it. I myself don't want to do Treasure Maps or FATEs, I don't want to log in and feel like "Time to work on this chore I have because SE decided it's better to force content on players!". The lack of content comes from how it's too spread out and not focused on 2-3 parts, not the overall game. Locking these drops behind those things will get them to participate in the content, sure. But is that fun for them? The most likely answer is no, FATEs are tedious and lack any semblance of a proper challenge, the same can be said for Treasure Maps. I did find them the most fun option for making gil back in early 3.0 though, but as of now you're almost guaranteed to lose money on them. But again, I know many people who don't enjoy that content. Forcing Hunts was bad enough (Treasure Maps > Hunts though).

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

that's what gil should be for.

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I still can't see how this would be beneficial to anyone but crafters, and it would only further the RMT problem.

At the end all I can say is we clearly have two different opinions on how it should be done and they likely won't budge, so there's no point in talking about this further. But my opinion on it is the best gear should not rely on crafters whatsoever, penta melded gear? Sure. But drops from Alexander Normal, Savage, Esoterics or Extreme Primals? Nope.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

How would you feel if the dungeons were not quite so farmable, you could not run them so quickly (because they retain some difficulty, not simply because of artificial speed-bumps that prevent mass pulls), but the drops were better/drop at a better rate? That way you would not run the content so many times or so often, and there would be more challenge to that content.

The way I see it if we could do something to reduce the frequency with which these dungeons are run, but increase the worth of doing them appropriately, we would refuce fatigue and burnout, and reduce the feeling of it being a chore.

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What low level dungeons are actually difficult at minimum ilvl sync? I don't consider things taking forever to kill challenging, and if anything that would increase the feeling of it being a chore, especially since we have only a bit of our abilities. As for your other idea of adding a new difficulty, that's not keeping old content relevant. That's replacing old content further increasing queue times for the original, which is one of the only reasons SE keeps old content relevant. I'd also much prefer those development sources be allocated into bringing up the level 51-59 dungeons to level 60 and throwing them in the EX roulette. That would also give variety to the PvE endgame which is lacking in almost every department, and it would also be "new" content that came with the release of Heavensward so it would be fresh.

How much times have I don't the Vault, the Library, or the Aery? 5-15 times maybe. 2.0 dungeons? I've done some of them so many times that I never want to step foot in those ever again. They're incredibly boring (as mentioned earlier, lack of abilities), bosses have no interesting mechanics or require you to actively dodge on the level of something like the Vault, and are just all around sub-par in comparison to Heavensward dungeons. If we're talking 2.1+, then yeah they're better as the patches go on, but I've still run those on roulette so many times, as opposed to the Heavensward leveling dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

For most veteran players, helping a new player once a blue moon isn't a problem. Back in FFXI, if someone needed to down shadow lord, there was always someone around to help out. The resentment in FFXIV:ARR isn't towards the new player, but the content itself. We are required to run the content so much in this game that most of it becomes a chore to do. It's not that they hate the new player. The vet has to do the content whether he likes to or not in order to advance.

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Couldn't agree more.

Make a new point system with items that cost a lot to gain and some are good items some are armor's and some are glamour, minions, weapons and whatever else.

Only for old content when the new content becomes old add the point system to those dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

While I'm definitely in favor of at least some randomized dungeon content, I could see there being pushback from people that just want to go in, get their tomestones, and get out as quickly as possible. It would probably end up being entirely optional, and if it is I don't know how many people would run it.

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There wouldn't be much pushback. The entire "get our tomes and get out" mentality is caused by the current way dungeons are designed.

Add dungeons and raids to the open world rather than silly instanced locations

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Originally Posted by midnitdragoon

Add dungeons and raids to the open world rather than silly instanced locations

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How would you implement this so that it won't be a cluster of people burning stuff? (Like hunts during their relevant periods)

I wouldn't mind having to do old content if my abilities weren't lost upon sync.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Explain how it's less RNG when instead of hoping your token or gear piece drops, you now have to hope it drops and hope the material drops too?

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the piece that drops in raids wouldn't be specific. so A1S will drop a wristband template or whatever accessory template. if you're in a static, you would just give the wristband to whoever doesn't have one yet and hasn't gotten much other stuff in awhile. you won't have a situation were two fending wrists drop and nobody wants them.

you take the wristband template and you turn it in to an NPC along with a crafted Fending/Casting/Healing/etc gem (which is 100% with successful desynthesis of any Unweathered goldsmith item of that type) and Fenrir Leather which is made with Red Alumen (Folkore node item) and a Fenrir Hide which is 100% drop from Snowcloak.

yes, it will take more work to get the good gear, but good gear should be worth some effort and you get people doing content and circulating items and gil in the economy.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

FATEs are tedious and lack any semblance of a proper challenge, the same can be said for Treasure Maps. I did find them the most fun option for making gil back in early 3.0 though, but as of now you're almost guaranteed to lose money on them.

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there's no reason why treasure maps can't be made proper challenge. they just have to tune the fights tighter. the whole thing is a time trial, you have to kill everything in time and you only have 8 people. if you can't imagine how that can be challenging your imagination is just very limited. the issue is, things that are tuned to be harder has to be worth something or you end up with Pharos Sirius on release, too hard and nothing drops that's worth the effort. a change like this would make treasure maps not a guarantee to lose money.

if FATEs aren't fun for you don't do them. just buy the Behemoth Horn you'll need off the marketboard from someone who wanted to do the Behemoth FATE.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

I still can't see how this would be beneficial to anyone but crafters, and it would only further the RMT problem.

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it's beneficial to people who don't mind doing Snowcloak (or The Aery to get a Nidhogg scale, or whatever dungeon/trial/FATE that will drop these craft mats). what RMT problem?

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Originally Posted by Colorful

The lack of content comes from how it's too spread out and not focused on 2-3 parts, not the overall game.

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so your suggestion is what? just make more content faster?

I do not like or want old content to be relevant. I find it dated and serving of no purpose other than to torture those of us that do not want to repeat it. We already have to grind / repeat content as it is just to cap tomes and scripts and other goodies. I'm sure the next relic phase will help whoever else needs the carry but for now If I do old content is because I am forced to do it. Not sure how everyone else feels about this but I can bet there is at least one person that feels as I do.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

There wouldn't be much pushback. The entire "get our tomes and get out" mentality is caused by the current way dungeons are designed.

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it's cause they serve no purpose besides tomes, i don't see how you can redesign the dungeons to change that mentality.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

How would you implement this so that it won't be a cluster of people burning stuff? (Like hunts during their relevant periods)

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Hunt bill style, Beastmen Daily Quest style, either will work.

people don't burn B Ranks cause they are useless without the right bill or the right daily/weekly quest to turn in for a reward.