PvP 3.1 Balance Request Megathread

So, PVP needs some fine-tuning & what better time than 3.1!

Seize - reduce the randomization of B/S/A node spawns.

Seen games where 2 S Nodes spawned in a single GC's far corner at the very start & ruined the match. This cycle kept repeating & what made it worse was the nodes were virtually stacked on top of one another making it nigh-impossible to strategically grab even just one.

Seize - weight the randomness of node spawns against a GC that's well ahead.

Too often a lucky GC will continue on these lucky streaks where nodes keep spawning directly underfoot for them in their corner. This shouldn't happen either.

BRD/MCH - reduce the recast time of GB/WM from 15s to 5s.

Toggling in & out of GB/WM should remain a conscious decision. But 15s is too steep a period to stay forced into casting.

AST/SCH/WHM - add a trait where dispels have a 50% chance to remove a second debuff.

Purify & single dispels don't quite cut it with the new Tri-Disaster & more unique debuffs/dots than ever before.

CC - bind/sleep need their durations further cut down. Even with diminishing returns, their first casts & absurdly long... spoils the engagement/fun.

GB/WM should at least remove the damage penalty incurred by range. Even at sweetspot range, a MCH's burst isn't stronger than say, of a SMN or especially of a melee LB, and mostly on par with most melee burst. The range penalty combined with cast times makes it hard for BRd/MCH to reactively adjust their range to stay within the sweet spot, and it's not like their damage output is to the level of a blackmage (who has to stand still but gets no ranged damage penalty), Especially in an environment where every other class is dealing damage balanced with their 3.0 moveset.

Light speed/nocturnal could also use some tweaks for PvP specifically. The instant nocturnal shield is utterly absurd and a good AST isn't dying even with 5 people whacking on them.

Reduce the timers a little on Purify, or give me like a 5 second anti-body from dots after using it at least. Also would like it if they increased the duration of wander's paean for bard, it has a use in pvp but it only lasts 30 seconds and you can only cast it on one person at a time, you really-really have to time it, 1 minute would be sufficient yet non-game breaking I'd think. (It still only prevents one status effect)

Permit Cleric Stance but make it to where you're locked into it for 10s like GB/WM.

So it's a conscious decision as well & very limited in use.

if you want some changes for the map and stuff in that pvp mode itself i agree but class changes based on a 72 man zergfest leads to broken things

seal rock (slaughter)

HOW TO IMPROVE FRONTLINE AND PVP QUALITY

Upscale Secure and Slaughter to 60 then make a daily map rotation where there is only one mode a day open (out of the 3 Frontline modes) therefore rotating modes for variety and funneling all people into one map queue to speed up match making.

Make it so we can see which GC is lacking in people to queue. Show which GC is missing people that way people can join and make matches easier instead of doing guess work.

Make the eagle and swan feathers purchasable with wolf marks therefore giving a reason to get and use wolf marks after gear is all purchased.

Remove or at least ease rank restrictions for matchmaking. I understand why they're there but they benefit a very small number of players at this point.

Make Maelstrom on Aether good at pvp so I can get wins.

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Originally Posted by Potatoes

HOW TO IMPROVE FRONTLINE AND PVP QUALITY
Upscale Secure and Slaughter to 60 then make a daily map rotation where there is only one mode a day open (out of the 3 Frontline modes) therefore rotating modes for variety and funneling all people into one map queue to speed up match making.

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This will make queue times even longer.

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Originally Posted by Potatoes

HOW TO IMPROVE FRONTLINE AND PVP QUALITY

Upscale Secure and Slaughter to 60 then make a daily map rotation where there is only one mode a day open (out of the 3 Frontline modes) therefore rotating modes for variety and funneling all people into one map queue to speed up match making.

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If they do this then they need to unlock the field commander gear to all three modes. That coat is seriously what keeps me caring since you can eventually get to rank 50 off all losses.

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Originally Posted by gamewyler

seal rock (slaughter)

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No.

This map is even worse for it because the terrain is incredibly uneven with no fair focal middle point.


What we need is Seal Rock (Liberation), where we can fight glorious battles as we stand high as high we stand and gaze down on the endless garden that awaits us. There, only blood will sate as it trickles down to Hydaelyn.

Would like melee to have a better offence against kiters, caster can sprint and run without loosing their primary resource. melee have heavies but the cooldowns are too long.

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Originally Posted by Pentara

Would like melee to have a better offence against kiters, caster can sprint and run without loosing their primary resource. melee have heavies but the cooldowns are too long.

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Sprint, invigorate, enliven, goad, icarus wing.

weapon throw has a 60 second cooldown

Tanks have stun/tar pit/etc

Bare in mind that these are balanced around wolves den, not frontlines and it should stay this way, kiting casters cannot cast 90% of thier decent skills (with the exception of astrologian who can just spam a shield, and black mage who can 3-4k crit spam with phantom dart + scathe)

More than a balance, what it reallly NEEDs is fast Qs, when they fix the Gc restrcition or an way to fix the Q waiting time then i think we can worry about balancing stuff.

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Originally Posted by Cero0

More than a balance, what it reallly NEEDs is fast Qs, when they fix the Gc restrcition or an way to fix the Q waiting time then i think we can worry about balancing stuff.

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No. These are not mutually exclusive. We can do both. Thnx.

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

Sprint, invigorate, enliven, goad, icarus wing.

weapon throw has a 60 second cooldown

Tanks have stun/tar pit/etc

Bare in mind that these are balanced around wolves den, not frontlines and it should stay this way, kiting casters cannot cast 90% of thier decent skills (with the exception of astrologian who can just spam a shield, and black mage who can 3-4k crit spam with phantom dart + scathe)

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Please tell that to a SMN that can do their full burst while sprinting.

Melees beat casters in 1v1, yes, even SMNs. A lot of the melees complaining think they should just be able to auto-attack and 1-2-3 casters down and win. When caster's sprint, they forget they can Sprint themselves, or negate the caster's sprint all together.

Melees have burst of their own, self-heals,stuns, fetter ward(mnk/drg), etc.

Its just now they actually have to try to kill SMNs, so they complain.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

Melees beat casters in 1v1, yes, even SMNs. A lot of the melees complaining think they should just be able to auto-attack and 1-2-3 casters down and win. When caster's sprint, they forget they can Sprint themselves, or negate the caster's sprint all together.

Melees have burst of their own, self-heals,stuns, fetter ward(mnk/drg), etc.

Its just now they actually have to try to kill SMNs, so they complain.

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Ikr, i kill as much as monk as i do with my summoner lol ppl just need to learn their stuff, that doesnt mean summoners are not OP, coz they really are.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

No. These are not mutually exclusive. We can do both. Thnx.

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Its pointless to balance pvp if it is dead by then, i would prefer they focus fixing QS so actually ppl will enjoy pvp and we can get more ppl into it, If they can do both things at same time it would be great... but i dont trust them coz it looks like it is dying slowly again

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

Seize - reduce the randomization of B/S/A node spawns.

Seize - weight the randomness of node spawns against a GC that's well ahead.

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The thing about the random spawns is that they are random. Yes, sometimes a rival GC gets a seemingly unfair advantage, but other times the advantage is yours. Purposefully skewing the spawns to help losing teams would be actively punishing the winning team for playing well. A good team can often overcome bad RNG, and even if you do get screwed over, you can rest easy in the knowledge that it was a random event, and not SE purposefully throwing you under the bus, and that it could very well work in your favor in the next round.

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

BRD/MCH - reduce the recast time of GB/WM from 15s to 5s.

Toggling in & out of GB/WM should remain a conscious decision. But 15s is too steep a period to stay forced into casting.

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This is a good idea. They also need to remove the "sweet spot" in PVP. The sweet spot was added into PVP so that Bards wouldn't have an unfair advantage by being able to instant cast their abilities from anywhere on the battlefield for full damage. With the addition of GB/WM, ranged attackers no longer have this advantage. In fact BRD and MCH are now totally screwed over in PVP, becoming even more rooted in place than magic casters, while also having their attacks do less damage if their enemy isn't in the perfect position.

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

AST/SCH/WHM - add a trait where dispels have a 50% chance to remove a second debuff.

Purify & single dispels don't quite cut it with the new Tri-Disaster & more unique debuffs/dots than ever before.

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Purify is arguably more powerful than ever, since it still removes every debuff, even if you have 20 of them on you. But the Dispel trait is a good idea. These days in PVP a healer would have to spend 100% of their time dispelling debuffs if they wanted to remove half of the things their party was afflicted with.

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Originally Posted by PlumpyMcduff

CC - bind/sleep need their durations further cut down. Even with diminishing returns, their first casts & absurdly long... spoils the engagement/fun.

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Absolutely. The initial cast of sleep lasts for far too long if it is not interrupted. 20 seconds is an eternity in a PVP match, and is more than enough time for the caster to cap a tomelith/use Cometeor/whatever. Purify used to be used almost exclusively for Sleep, and so it wasn't as big of an issue, but now that we have way more things we need to Purify, Sleep is once again the worst thing in PVP.

(God damn they need to increase the character limit.)

Randomness is the only thing that allows the terrible teams to actually squeak out a win every once in a while... and given how the limited GC que forces people to party with the same derps over and over at times when they the only 24'ish on a cluster que'ing, it is needed. Cause if they aren't winning... guess who isn't que'ing any more? Those 24'ish. Guess what happens to que for everyone else now? Yeah. Randomness is actually a good thing in Seize. Everyone here should be yelling at SE to remove GC ques, like Jubs is.

And people that bring up "Bring back cleric stance" are obviously dummies that jumped on board the overly unbalanced and boring Slaughter instance, or PvP-main healers that want taste of the ezmode days. I personally don't want to see 4-8 ppl pre-made sch/whm combos camping spawns in Seize. You people suggesting this do realize this is what will happen, yesh?

Shut up, all-WHM Cleric Stance Holy meta was the best. >:I
As a healer, it does make me salty that there are gameplay and cosmetic rewards for getting kills, though.

I wonder if bringing back cleric stance would still be overpowered now. Granted in one on one scenarios the healer would be overpowered but this is frontlines we are talking about so thats pretty moot (warrior is overpowered one on one too and nobody cares). Part of the reason it used to be overpowered before was the medica 2/regen stacking as well as the ability to lustrate in cleric stance with no penalty to its cure potency but both of those things are gone now.

The healer would have to make conscious decisions about what stance to be in now, unlike pre medica 2/regen/lustrate nerf, as what stance they are in could cost them the lives of teammates even more so than before. And the dps they are putting out in cleric stance isnt worth the death of a dps that can deal substantially greater dmg in a shorter amount of time. They could always tinker with the recast too to further inhibit freely switching back and forth and force them to commit more.

Either way I dont really see how a party of healers could survive in cleric stance like they used to before especially with practically every job getting an increase to their burst potential since the days of secure (obviously some more than others). Some of those healers would be forced out of cleric stance and those that remain in it would be doing subpar dps dmg anyway with practically no burst power. Only thing that would worry me is a party of healers going around trading Divine breaths with one another to indefinitely prolongue skirmishes like they used to in secure. But unlike in secure, those deaths would hurt your teams score in seize so idk maybe that tactic wouldnt be so viable here anymore.

Smn dots should only dmg while the smn is in range of affected person.

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Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru

Smn dots should only dmg while the smn is in range of affected person.

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Also give it the "medica 2" fix and smn will be balanced and good to go.

inb4 "but da deathflare combo!"

I demand for galvanize and nocturnal aspected to stacked. It's ridiculous for SCH/AST pair because SCH's critical adlo suddenly changed to non-critical nocturnal aspected. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Eul

I demand for galvanize and nocturnal aspected to stacked. It's ridiculous for SCH/AST pair because SCH's critical adlo suddenly changed to non-critical nocturnal aspected. :mad:

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Hell no. The way it is right now with light speed, it's utterly ridiculous. A single astro can keep someone (or them self) alive against 3-4 other people with their instant nocturnal shields.

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Originally Posted by JubjubTubs

Randomness is the only thing that allows the terrible teams to actually squeak out a win every once in a while... and given how the limited GC que forces people to party with the same derps over and over at times when they the only 24'ish on a cluster que'ing, it is needed.

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I agree completely, especially with the current implementation of group PVP. My complaint around Seal Rock centers more over the non-asymmetrical map design (North is generally either a complete wash or a deathtrap, depending on initial node spawns) and the early appearance of A/S-ranks that can completely tilt the game in someone's favor.

In general, though, I want them to move towards a smaller, non-GC restricted battlegrounds system with two sides. Aside from every other thing that's been said about the format, losing at a statistical average of 66%~ really sucks, psychologically speaking.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Hell no. The way it is right now with light speed, it's utterly ridiculous. A single astro can keep someone (or them self) alive against 3-4 other people with their instant nocturnal shields.

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Or at least don't make critical galvanize exchange by nocturnal aspected, something like it doesn't give effect if one of mitigate is higher.

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Originally Posted by Eul

Or at least don't make critical galvanize exchange by nocturnal aspected, something like it doesn't give effect if one of mitigate is higher.

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It shouldn't overwrite though, unless the nocturnal shield would have given a higher value damage shield compared to what was already on (including if it has already taken some hits, thus having a lower absorption threshold).

Edit : After going out of my way to test this, nocturnal will overwrite galv regardless of the latter's durability compared to the former's potency. You have to give us the benefit of the doubt though, no one parties with AST in end game raid to see this sort of thing ;A;

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

I agree completely, especially with the current implementation of group PVP. My complaint around Seal Rock centers more over the non-asymmetrical map design (North is generally either a complete wash or a deathtrap, depending on initial node spawns) and the early appearance of A/S-ranks that can completely tilt the game in someone's favor.

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I agree. I hate spawning north, because it is practically open season on your GC if both of the enemy teams decide to rush you. South and caves both have choke points. North has nothing.There is literally no node that spawns on the North side of the map that cannot be outflanked or double teamed, and RnG can actually make it worse. If north "Lucks out" and gets optimal node spawns in their area, they are only inviting both other GC's to gank your team. Worst case scenario invovles you getting pushed back to your spawn, and then fighting off a spawn camp.

I like this game mode, but SE needs to hire someone who knows something about PvP. This map design is a little too unbalanced.

BRD/MCH should not suffer range penalty with WM/GB turned on, it makes no sense

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Edit : After going out of my way to test this, nocturnal will overwrite galv regardless of the latter's durability compared to the former's potency. You have to give us the benefit of the doubt though, no one parties with AST in end game raid to see this sort of thing ;A;

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That's why I'm not really like when have party with AST (As SCH). Even they can spam aspected (which is really nice), my Adlo and Succor become useless, only Lustrate and Indomitabilty is useful.