Goring Blade Pointless?

Hi All you PLD's out there,

I main Paladin and been playing around with the new content for awhile now and I wanted to see if any other Paladins out there feel the same as I do about Goring Blade.

What the hell is that skill even doing there? I was excited at first that Fast Blade > Riot Blade combo was finally getting a 3rd combo finisher but then this move came along... Ever since hitting 60 and doing dungeons I very VERY rarely use it. In terms of my tanking I'm a flashy Paladin, I go in, spam flash to deplete my manapool then use Fast Blade > Riot Blade to get my mana back.

Now here comes my issue Goring Blade, if I'm trying to get my mana back why am I going to use Goring blade to restack a DoT over and over? its pointless :(

If anything Goring Blade should be a stand alone skill like Fracture (WAR DoT skill) and swap Goring blade with Royal Authority in my opinion. so you would have the Rage Combo and the Royal Combo and in turn giving the Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Royal Authority a valid reason to follow up as the dps would be consistent.

so you have a Enmity combo (like the WAR) [Fast Blade] > [Savage Blade] > [Rage of Halone] and a Dps combo which restores mana (like the DRK combo) [Fast Blade] > [Riot Blade] > [Royal Authority] and put [Goring Blade] on its own as a stand alone DoT skill like any other Tank class.

Please Comment and voice your opinion, if you either agree or disagree. I personally hope most of you agree :) and maybe just maybe get SE to do this minor adjustment for us PLD's out there.

Kind Regards and Thanks for taking the time to read/comment on this thread.

I do not see how a 540 potency skill pointless.

If you're a "flashy PLD" in AoE, that's good. The damage you do sucks in AoE and you should focus on the aggro anyways. Goring Blade puts you behind in AoE aggro.

If you're a "flashy PLD" in single target you're doing it wrong!! Goring Blade has its place in your single target rotation.. Which is every third combo!

That's what I think.

It is your single most damaging ability. Since PLD already has horrible dps it is unwise to ignore the dps gain from using Goring Blade.

You're an awful paladin then and playing the class completely wrong.

Even for AoE pulls you only need to do flash so often. And in single target boss encounters Flash should literally be used only if you're completely out of TP.

I mean, honestly. At least spam Rage of Halone instead of Flash so you do some damage, you're basically doing the equivilent of a BLM who only uses Scathe or Ice I.

If you're not using Goring Blade, you're doing it wrong. Enmity is easy, you shouldn't be spamming Flash/Halone 10 times in a row. Goring Blade does a lot of damage and should always be ticking, it should even be spread to multiple targets after a few Flashes.

I do apologize,

I think I may have explained my position on this wrong or that most of you who have said I am a bad paladin or that I'm doing something wrong have misread or not entirely reading what I have posted.

When I say Flashy Paladin I mean for larger then normal pulls and also I like to make my DPS feel happy about attacking a target of their choice without taking aggro when doing normal pulls too, I do know when to stop flashing when I have enough aggro... IN NO MEANS am I going to go flash a single target to death... that's just dumb and even more dumb for anyone who thinks someone would do that as a tank, that's such a fail assumption and shouldn't of even been mentioned lol

WHAT I am saying is that if these skills were swapped round as I have suggested PLD dps would in theory increase.

It maybe that the title of the topic may have mislead you but please do read and fully comprehend the discussion before saying something. I want a proper none negative discussion not a "you're a shit paladin" rant lol

I didn't make this post for discussing people tanking potential, I made this discussion over the skill and would it not be better for it to be a stand alone so you can keep the dot up and do more damage.

Oh thank god you actually know how to play then.

I do fully agree it should have been an independent skill a la scoruge or such, but it at least has 40 more potency over other DoTs to compenscate for this.

Have you thought of putting goring blade dot on different targets as this is aoe pulls you are talking about.

Personally. Im lazy when it comes to aoe. 3 + mobs, ill flash my whole mp pool then rotate goring blade on all targets. By the time they die im ready for another pull.

yea but doing the full combo just to put the dot on each target is long lol if it was a stand alone skill would suit that well and since you've flashed to get the aggro you can do the proposed combo with royal instead gore

But royal does way less damage than goring...

also there isn't a single pull where you have to deplete all your mana on flash, you're just wasting GCDs that could be used for (albeit low, single target) damage.

Also if you're chaining flash you're losing mitigation. If you need max AoE you'll want to do 3xFlash > 2xfiller > 2x flash > 1x filler > flash

Before Early Access I thought Goring would also have slashing debuff.

It would be nice to see some added utility or effects for Goring & RA

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

But royal does way less damage than goring...

also there isn't a single pull where you have to deplete all your mana on flash, you're just wasting GCDs that could be used for (albeit low, single target) damage.

Also if you're chaining flash you're losing mitigation. If you need max AoE you'll want to do 3xFlash > 2xfiller > 2x flash > 1x filler > flash

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royal does 340 combo bonus and goring does 220 combo bonus... so if you swap them around and using goring as a stand alone skill then yea... what I suggest does more.

Current - Fast Blade = 150 > Riot Blade = 100 (CB 230) > Goring Blade = 100 (CB 220) = 600

Proposed - Fast Blade = 150 > Riot Blade = 100 (CB 230) > Royal Authority = 100 (CB 340) = 720

No. The biggest thing is getting out of the 1-2-3 mentality and adding both versatility and risk to the job. Risk losing enmity for more mp and a high DOT move, or go with enmity and keep hate, or go with enmity and finish with a strong attack. Too many people are in the mentality of "DO MOAR DPS" but guess what, it's a tank job! You should be all about "SOAK MOAR DAMAGE" instead. Leave the DPS to do their DPS things while you worry about making sure the enemy is facing you, away from everyone else, and figure out how to mitigate the damage as low as possible.

Goring was one of the few things they got right from 50-60 IMO.

Interesting point of view but I'm sure you are aware that the 2 other Tank classes have similar actions and traits? The point I was trying to make in case you didn't read the post or may of misunderstood what has been said is that in terms of similarity and consistency Goring Blade sits in a very strange place compared to the other Tank classes or for the matter other classes in general.

IF the biggest thing was getting out of the 1-2-3 mentality then why would SE set it up that way in the first place?

The other Tank classes have a stand alone DoT skill but paladin gets theirs at the end of a combo? plus if you want to spam mp your not going to hit that last skill especially to reapply a DoT you just put on where as I proposed Royal Authority instead would just be a straight up dps combo with added mp benefit, just like a WAR or a DRK.

Threads are already up saying how PLD dps is a tad bit on the low side and what I have suggested ups it a little, you have your enmity rotation and dps rotation just like the other 2 Tank classes and a stand alone DoT just like the other 2 Tank classes and give more purpose to the Riot Blade Combo as it would be more benifical to use that at the end rather then maybe having the need to spam and constantly reapply a DoT at the end, hell for arguments sake add Royal Authority to the end of the Riot Blade Combo instead of the Savage Blade Combo and then there's no need to worry about needing to mana spam (ie in an emergancy) and having the need to oh look, my last skill in this combo is a DoT that I've already applied lets use the dps one now.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Goring was one of the few things they got right from 50-60 IMO.

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Care to share why you think that is? or is that just a statement? cause that really doesn't add to the discussion if it is just a statement now does it... not to mention I'm not saying get rid of it I'm saying move to skills around so they are more inline with the other Tank classes and increase PLD dps buy a small amount. I love Goring Blade as a skill too but I think it's sitting in a very odd place and this small change would be an amazing difference.

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Originally Posted by Riamu

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It was a general statement, but mostly due to the fact that PLDs entire 50-60 JA additions pretty terrible, IMO.

We knew they were adding to Riot. Royal wouldn't have made sense since it has 0 emn modifier the hate from savage allows it to be used more. So the 540 pot from Goring is nothing to be sad/mad about coming at the end of a previously meh combo. I never have MP problems. If I'm flash spamming I'm putting Goring up on all the mobs. (mp and DPS)

I am pretty happy with our 3 combos, I do wish Royal has some sort or enmity boost. (x2-3) Low enough that you wouldn't pull hate as an OT but high enough that we could tank more efficiently in SwO.

My grips with PLD are Clemency which is WAY too slow and extremely poor for raiding. DV should hit the PLD, making it more usable as a MT especially with its long CD. Sheltron is fine. Shield swipe is very lack luster, oGCD with a 15-20 second CD would help PLDs MT DPS problems.

Wait I love all of the additions.

1. Shelltron is our (a bit harder to use) version of inner beast. My only gripe is the animation is too long (too long of delay), and it needs to last longer (lets say 3 seconds).
2. Clemency is a fantastic, fantastic OT tool. You should be using it whenever you are not hitting the target and/or you've already cast stoneskin on yourself.
3. Goring - is a straight up dps increase.
4. Similarly, same with royal authority.
5. Divine Veil - this is so good! 10% damage absorb and also a raidwide stoneskin2? Yes please!

How can you say our additions are terrible. They are all so, so good. Goring and RA might be a bit boring, but they added some variety (granted, we still have the most boring rotation) to PLD rotation.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

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I agree for the most part.

Clemency is amazing, even as a mt there are times to find to use it with how fights are made. Like if someone gets burns during ravana or something of that nature.

Goring and royal really fill out the paladin offensive toolbox is a much needed way. And when you are wearing more str gear, not only does your dps go up in general, you have more threat and able to royal more often compunding the dps increase.

Divine veil is another nice cooldown. But definitely want to make a sound inducing macro for it.

Shelltron is my only gripe. It is certainly no inner beast. Because most tank busters i've seen are magical which cut down on its viability and with such a short cooldown, you sort of lose out if you aren't just using it on cooldown. Would have loved it let you block a magic attack also but be a 60 second cd. Until then it will sit on my automate bar with mercy stroke for most fights.

I agree I am very very happy with our new additions, but as you are already aware I just think logically if we swapped Goring Blade with Royal Authority this will make our mp rotation our mp/dps rotation and having Goring Blade as a stand alone we will be inline with the other tanks DoT Abilities and maximize our dps quite noticeably.

True on The Clemency though, is a bit of a odd ball, does help when needed but not a highly used skill in raids I have to agree. It's the more oh shit someone needs that extra heal button lol

it just seems logical to swap the two around and either keep it that way or have GB as a stand alone like the other tanks, or hell move RA over and keep it as it is.

All in all I may not have suggested the right "fix" to this but from what I can see what I have said would be the most "balanced" improvement and inline with the game's structure.

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Originally Posted by Riamu

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Goring as a stand alone would of course be amazing. Royal after Riot wouldn't be so hot because of enmity concerns but if they did put Goring at 540 pot as a stand alone I'd be willing to work around Royals low hate. :p

Clemency is a 3 second cast and gets interrupted, its a terrible MT/Oh shit tool. Maybe if your healers are just terrible you could find a use for it, but I haven't seen a single place we should use it. As an OT its castable but what are you healers doing? They have far better tools available and in the case of a tank buster they will have their rotation mapped out already. (and it won't involve a OT who should be DPSing instead) If the healers do require the OT to cast it should be SS.

Clemency should be a GCD cast. (ex Regen) Its instant or close to instant but cost you a GCD, it could even reset combos or be 50% potency. Anything would make it better then a 3 second cast.

DV is decent, but a huge improvement would be the shield hitting the PLD. Again its a bandaid since nothing will ever require it. If it hit the PLD then it could be used in a rotation. Instead the healers already have a rotation for any big raid AoEs. (they have to)

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

Oh thank god you actually know how to play then.

I do fully agree it should have been an independent skill a la scoruge or such, but it at least has 40 more potency over other DoTs to compensate for this.

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Agreed, Goring Blade being its own ability would have been better, and then put in something else after riot blade would have been great. Personally
1) I would have put Royal Authority in after Riot Blade--solidifying it as a damage combo through and through, an add a attack speed buff to royal authority that lasts for 15 seconds.
2) I would have put a new ability in after Savage Blade that gave a paladin a temporary Damage Shield (10 seconds or until consumed) based off damage dealt, potency 260. Shield not effected by Shield Oath Damage penalty.
3) Shield Swipe would be 180 potency, no pacification, but OGCD and Free, keeping its extra enmity and gaining a 'block chance' increase for 10 seconds. Add a 15 second CD.
4) Clemency would have been a GCD and not a spell, ala flash. Otherwise, remain the same.
5) Rage of Halone: Enmity Increase
6) Circle of Scorn: Lower CD to 15 seconds
7) Divine Veil: Does not need an external trigger. Effects the Paladin.
8) Bulwark: Reduce effect from 60% to 40%. Reduce CD from 180 seconds to 60 seconds.
9) Iron Will/Tempered Will (I'm at work--anti knock back, bind etc): Effects Paladin and all allies within 10 yalms.

PLDs everywhere: "We want a heal! Give us a heal! We crossclass CNJ and should have a heal!"

SE: "here you go, it's a bit costly but it's basically a Cure II which is pretty badass"

PLDs everywhere: "Yaaaaayyyyyy" \o/

*cast interupted*

PLDs everywhere: "SE Y U DU DIS"

really though, I get casts off as MT frequently (read: usually/most of the time). It's not your typical "oh shit" button because it's not that last second clutch move--it's a move that keeps things running when your healer died, or when someone just accepted a raise but the healers are ignoring them in preparation for raid damage. I've used it mostly as a precast when I see someone in danger/about to take damage, and the healer's clearly focused elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Goring as a stand alone would of course be amazing. Royal after Riot wouldn't be so hot because of enmity concerns but if they did put Goring at 540 pot as a stand alone I'd be willing to work around Royals low hate. :p

Clemency is a 3 second cast and gets interrupted, its a terrible MT/Oh shit tool. Maybe if your healers are just terrible you could find a use for it, but I haven't seen a single place we should use it. As an OT its castable but what are you healers doing? They have far better tools available and in the case of a tank buster they will have their rotation mapped out already. (and it won't involve a OT who should be DPSing instead) If the healers do require the OT to cast it should be SS.

Clemency should be a GCD cast. (ex Regen) Its instant or close to instant but cost you a GCD, it could even reset combos or be 50% potency. Anything would make it better then a 3 second cast.

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Basically this. All the things paladins got in heavensward come with a but.

HEY YOU GOT AWESOME DAMAGE COMBOS....but cause your base potencies and damage are crap, you cant hold enmity without rage spam.
HEY YOU GOT AN AWESOME DAMAGE SHIELD FOR THE GROUP...but you cant just proc it when needed and it doesnt effect you.
HEY YOU GOT AN AWESOME HEAL.....that is insanely slow, interruptable, stops you from defending yourself. Even as an OT you will be hard pressed to use it cause 3 seconds is an eternity to healers that are ontop of things.
HEY YOU GOT AN AUTO BLOCK.....and we just changed all the busters to be magic damage and thus not blockabale.

Honestly, this is why I shelved my Paladin entirely. Even small buffs wont fix them---and its no wonder the A3 clear required moving a paladin to a dark knight--their damage is really just too low, and its not like they needed any of the paladins tools to clear it.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Basically this. All the things paladins got in heavensward come with a but...

Honestly, this is why I shelved my Paladin entirely. Even small buffs wont fix them---and its no wonder the A3 clear required moving a paladin to a dark knight--their damage is really just too low, and its not like they needed any of the paladins tools to clear it.

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yup, they gave paladins all this "utility" but its not really raid relevant. You can take any other tank class with a higher dps and not suffer.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

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1. utter BS. With some str accessories, I would say about 50 seconds into any boss fight, i dotn even need RoH at all.
2. Who cares if it affects you as you have the most survivability. This is something to put up that protects the weak. Very paladin-ish
3. True, even as OT you shouldnt be using this when there is something to hit. But there are times when there is nothing to hit where it comes in handy. not every ability needs to be godlike.
4. Cant argue this one. Kinda of dead on accurate.

As for dps, i dont think it is a fair trade off to make paladins unable to compete simply based on a bunch of mitigation tools that aren't needed for the class at this point. Conv, awareness, bloodbath, foresight. Hell even shelltron in its current application are all things we can live without easily. Just let us be competitive with equal geared tanks on the dps front.

As I said at the start of this post, in terms of practical use Royal Authority has more of a place after Riot Blade then Goring Blade as it makes sense for a Paladin Damage Combo, the other being the Enmity Combo and use Goring Blade as a stand alone DoT skill like the other 2 tanks DoT skills.

If you get into a situation where you need mana back and if its off a single target (or even multiple targets) your not gonna finish the Riot combo by reapplying Goring Blade dot over and over, you'd be more inclined to follow it up with a heavy hitting dps finishing move like Royal Authority.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

1. utter BS. With some str accessories, I would say about 50 seconds into any boss fight, i dotn even need RoH at all.
2. Who cares if it affects you as you have the most survivability. This is something to put up that protects the weak. Very paladin-ish
3. True, even as OT you shouldnt be using this when there is something to hit. But there are times when there is nothing to hit where it comes in handy. not every ability needs to be godlike.
4. Cant argue this one. Kinda of dead on accurate.

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1. Your dps are bad? Have you gotten past Faust Savage yet? Are you staying in shield oath on Rav EX or, like most tanks, able to keep aggro fine in sword oath from start to finish? I would love to see you post a parse where your able to 'keep aggro the whole time' with your abilities usage and your static dps, cause this sounds like baloney. Not to be offensive (im not trying to be offensive) but in full str accessories against my statics lancer and monk I was struggling (and paladin is not particularly difficult to play). Only when my monk decided on his own to run as a ninja did things get easier and even then, I never enjoyed the closeness of the OT to my threat levels. On my Drk and War? Its an absolute joke.

2. Explain "The most survivable". By the numbers, Warriors have the most uptime on damage reducers and the easiest time stacking them against boss mechanics, unless you are concerned with blocking auto attacks, in which case that is fair I guess---Paladins are the kings of reducing auto attack damage. Oh and hallowed ground--cant forget that gem.

3. Certainly but you would want more out of your level 58 power, would you not? The paladin kit is already quite poor and optimized around tank swapping tank busters where they could shine by stacking their cds. Something like A1 savage absolutely destroys that idea with 2 minute magical tank busters.

4. Ditto =^.^=

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Originally Posted by Edewen

Conv, awareness, bloodbath, foresight. Hell even shelltron in its current application are all things we can live without easily. Just let us be competitive with equal geared tanks on the dps front.

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Or alternatively

1) Buff our enmity enough to compensate for our bad damage.
2) Make our cooldown traits are more powerful. Given that most of our 'great' cooldowns are shared to all tanks and our traits are largely just slight improvements, it is hardly a reason to give up as much damage, aoe (hahahah) as we do.

Something like making Awarness last longer and reflect critical damage (or counter it with potency) and maybe having over healing while cova is up become a damage shield up to 20% of your health (refreshable while cova is live) are just the sort of things I think they can do to make these cooldowns feel worth their while if Paladins are supposed to be defensive experts. Having some short cooldown answer to ambiguous damage would be quite nice to boot--i remember 'shelltron' in 1.0 worked against magic (although the old name escapes me, but very much the same power).

Aegis Boon == 1.0's Sheltron It blocked magical too iirc and recovered hp

imagine if Bulwark recovered TP & MP for each successful block.

instead of Shield Swipe there was Phalanx (did it give a buff?) and also War Drum - an AOE aggro gen that could be used after any block.

edit: Divine Veil and Clemency had 1.0 equivalents. Royal is the only non-1.0 addition unless I'm mistaken (could be). And as strictly a DPS WS - no utility or added effect - it seems sort of an unimaginative choice on SE's part