War MT?

So I just came back to this game for heavensward, looking to MT as I have in every MMO. Currently leveling a warrior, but ive been doing some research and it seems as though my class gets pidgeonholed into the offtank role only? Im talking end game progression content, not pugs on duty finder, would I ever be MTing or should I just reroll to paladin now. Thanks for the advice.

If you wanna MT, I would say Pally. All tanks can MT but if you wanna be the best MT Paladin hands down. Warrior is a god of a OT and drk is a floater atm.

Warriors can MT all fights, however tradition is generally to start with a PLD MT to test the water in new content. It's not a hard rule and depends on the composition of whatever static you find yourself, most will like a PLD.

If you're keen however you'll pop all 3 tanks to 60.

warriors as of now have an amazing advantage over other tanks, they do massive damage, and i mean MASSIVE. you can MT as warrior if using Holmgang, Vengeance , Raw Intuition, Equilibrium and inner beast etc, as cooldowns yea sure. But ideally WAR thus far has the perfect skills to Offtank and MT WHEN NEEDED . When not main tanking (not having adds or in a swap) You can do up to 850dps in a live instance (NOT A DUMMY) WHILE IN "Deliverance"...... with the right gear. A Paladin cannot come anywhere near that in an instance and have higherdefensive skills. You want to talk end game? With the Dark Knight issues they are not fit for the offtank or MT ROLE in a SAVAGE RAID. Keep your warrior unless you want the dull responsibility of the same thing over and over again.

WAR is the best MT in the game right now. Simple to play, plenty of mitigation. Good versus magic and physical attacks and have the highest DPS potential and highest burst potential.

PLD is your utility tank with most of its abilities actually better for the OT role.

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Originally Posted by AnimaS

warriors as of now have an amazing advantage over other tanks, they do massive damage, and i mean MASSIVE. you can MT as warrior if using Holmgang, Vengeance , Raw Intuition, Equilibrium and inner beast etc, as cooldowns yea sure. But ideally WAR thus far has the perfect skills to Offtank and MT WHEN NEEDED . When not main tanking (not having adds or in a swap) You can do up to 850dps in a live instance (NOT A DUMMY) WHILE IN "Deliverance"...... with the right gear. A Paladin cannot come anywhere near that in an instance and have higherdefensive skills. You want to talk end game? With the Dark Knight issues they are not fit for the offtank or MT ROLE in a SAVAGE RAID. Keep your warrior unless you want the dull responsibility of the same thing over and over again.

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I love how you were wording that so well so not to ruffle anyone's feathers.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

WAR is the best MT in the game right now. Simple to play, plenty of mitigation. Good versus magic and physical attacks and have the highest DPS potential and highest burst potential.

PLD is your utility tank with most of its abilities actually better for the OT role.

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/facedesk... I just...can't...

Thanks for the quick replies, although it seems like im getting mixed responses. Not sure how I feel about the dps infatuation on tanks..like cool if your dps sucks you can pickup the slack but how does that help you survive "tank busters" as you call them in this game haha if I want to dps ill make a dps. I want to be the most reliable MT for tanking the hardest content in the game, but maybe endgame is different from the mmos ive played and im missing something

lol Utilities suited for OT roles...... ded.....
PLD is the best option at MT purely based on it being the best at mitigation.

Shoot me!

WAR is the best OT option purely based off its ability to top 600ish DPS
like you just added a 5th DPS option with a Tank still in the party
it doesn't get better than this

PLDs tool kit is lacking for MT duties. Lowest MT DPS, shield/bulwark/sheltron all useless against SEs hardon for magic attacks. Sent/rampart are fine but nothing above the other 2 tanks. HG is the best def move in the game but just as effective as MT or OT. (tank swap HG whatever tank buster, swap back)

Clemency is best cast on a MT not by a MT. DV is easily triggered from the OT slot and then actually useful since its applied to the MT. Royal can be spammed as an OT. Stoneskin can be cast without interruption by an OT PLD, one of the better progression spells from a tank.

WAR has the highest MT damage. Can apply a 10% damage down, can mitigate tank busters physical and magical on demand. They generate more hate then a PLD.

DRK is stuck in between with an edge to magic damage and very high OT damage but runs into major TP issues in either role.

I'm a PLD junkie and have been a PLD MT for a progression raid for a long time now. But I'm not going to pretend PLD is best right now. It's well behind for A1,3,4 and useless in A2. PLD is also the worst tank for ravana EX with the lowest burst potential.


WAR is also the best OT for DPS but it doesn't provide the OT utility of a PLD.

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Originally Posted by Tankstuff

Thanks for the quick replies, although it seems like im getting mixed responses. Not sure how I feel about the dps infatuation on tanks..like cool if your dps sucks you can pickup the slack but how does that help you survive "tank busters" as you call them in this game haha if I want to dps ill make a dps. I want to be the most reliable MT for tanking the hardest content in the game, but maybe endgame is different from the mmos ive played and im missing something

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Tank DPS was/is a big part of endgame. Hybrid builds, STR builds were/are mostly used by progression groups in order to meet DPS checks. The problem is these same builds used by very good players have trickled down to the mouth breathers who don't have the skill or support to make them work effectively.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

PLDs tool kit is lacking for MT duties. Lowest MT DPS,
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A1- 500 DPS as a MT..... Also please enlighten me on these magical attacks ?
A2- 300 DPS as MT /Shield Oath up pretty much all the time , except last wave.....Also If I do recall when Multiple mobs are autoattcking yada yada you know how the mobs do here , they're considered physical eh ? Or Im wrong
A3-maintain 300-400 DPS...Also the amount of damage is minimal , the cleave her is PHYSICAL...frontal swipe ...so ? Wut ?
A4-500 DPS as MT until P4....soooo you don't even tank this fight until last phase really ? SO how are we lacking and behind ?
You prepare for at max 3 Discoid....Which Is RAMPART, SENTINEL , HG

You sir need to go be a PLD junkie back in 2.0 because 3.0 we're winning ...

Wait what? Those are all garbage tier DPS numbers even for a PLD.

A1 My PLD does 700, WAR and DRK do 850+
A2 my PLD does 700, WAR and DRK can do 950+
A3 my PLD does 550,WAR does 850, I haven't gone with a DRK
A4 my PLD does 600, WAR and DRK do 800+

If you can time Inner Beast, WAR's an amazing MT that can match or beat PLD's mitigation in the majority of fights. If you can't time it, it's a horrible choice. Learning fights and tankbuster timings doesn't take long considering how scripted everything is.

Ok ty, it is indeed different from the traditional mmos i have played in the past then, excuse my ignorance. As I was reading paladin skills I sort of came to the same conclusion, a lot of their skills seem suitable as OT utility, although they have strong physical mitigation. I am enjoying warrior though and if pushing dps numbers while tanking is just as important for progression that seems like a fun challenge.

All tanks are quite viable on all of the content. Each of them has their strong points as well as their learning curve. I always suggest learning Paladin first for this reason. While it lacks the burst DPS of warrior, it has more steady DPS, as well as a standard mitigation toggle that is literally more effective in ALL situations. Even with the new addition of parry on Warrior's Wrath, they actually are required to use Wrath as a resource and thus lose that Parry quite often. Further, as several people have pointed out, Parry is useless against magical damage, which is fairly common in the game. Not nearly as common as physical damage, but still common. I suggest people learn Paladin first because it has the most simple and just powerful mitigating cooldowns that requires less thought about its usage. After learning Paladin, I suggest learning Warrior, since you will now have the basics of tanking down and you will learn things like cooldown combinations, synergy, and more precise skill timing. Then, after mastering both, I suggest moving on to Dark Knight, since you will now be an exceptionally skilled tank with all the aspects of tanking well practiced, and you can apply them to a tanking class that really challenges the role.

Don't get fooled. Most statics use Paladin as MT because it's the safest choice, all Paladin cooldowns are oGCD, while inner beast, WARs main mitigation, is not. Warrior MT and Paladin OT setup is considered advanced gameplay already. It is usually viable if you have done the fight a couple times and are pushing the numbers to get it done faster. The WAR needs to know the timing of incoming tank busters and so do the healers, otherwise it's going to be a horrible experience.

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

You sir need to go be a PLD junkie back in 2.0 because 3.0 we're winning ...

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pretty sure taint know what he talking about, PLD is by far lowest MT DPS and even on OT lose to both DRK and WAR.

and i do agree with him best MT by far is warrior>.>

While Warrior can definitely MT anything, and I imagine that will remain the case, many groups looking to fill a tank slot in their static likely will have Warrior pegged as OT.

You can plead your case, and can find a static that will allow War MT definitely, but it is unlikely to be the default in the majority of groups.

However, many end game fights require tank swaps or both tanks to MT at points. You'll definitely get plenty of chance to shine tanking either way.

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Originally Posted by Tankstuff

Thanks for the quick replies, although it seems like im getting mixed responses. Not sure how I feel about the dps infatuation on tanks..like cool if your dps sucks you can pickup the slack but how does that help you survive "tank busters" as you call them in this game haha if I want to dps ill make a dps. I want to be the most reliable MT for tanking the hardest content in the game, but maybe endgame is different from the mmos ive played and im missing something

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In other games, tanks don't do nearly as much dps as a dps does. A tank not focusing on dps in this game does roughly the same spread on others, however a tank dpsing in this game can do upwards of 700 dps. When all your dps are doing 1k on these fights its a pretty significant amount. The difference between a tank doing 250-300 dps and a tank doing 850 in a live fight is like a dps doing 500 dps vs 1k. Not dpsing removes a LOT from your groups.

Let's face it.

- PLD is the worst OT, and even the worst MT.

- WAR is OP. You can't go wrong with WAR, even if you have 2 WAR in your raid. But, you can't afford to be "bad" if you wanna MT.

- DRK is decent, arguably the best MT, and can outdps WAR as OT, but is heavily reliant on the party composition, since it lack the damage debuff from WAR, slashing debuff from WAR/NIN, and extra help from NIN/AST to solve his TP issues (and if you have a NIN, you still need a STR-melee DPS to get the STR bonus).

That being said, the "worst" isn't bad. You can clear every endgame content in this game with 2 PLD in your raid. In fact, I cleared everything with almost always 2 PLD, and I'm gonna clear the upcoming content with almost the worst team composition: 1 DRK 1 PLD, a MNK, no NIN/DRG. At least I got an AST.

This game isn't class-carried. You simply need 2 TANK 2 HEAL 4 DPS and you're good to go. Well, almost. BRD was a requirement for most endgame encouters in ARR, dunno if it will still be true in Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Kleys

Let's face it.

- PLD is the worst OT, and even the worst MT.

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What? How did you come to that conclusion?

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Originally Posted by Doudousteve

What? How did you come to that conclusion?

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PLD has the worst DPS of the 3 tanks and its increased mitigation is only in regards to physical attacks. In heavensward raids (read: Alexander) which are magic damage heavy, it loses its only advantage over the other 2 tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kleys

- WAR is OP. You can't go wrong with WAR, even if you have 2 WAR in your raid.

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https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...77fabb6f07.jpg

The only value of PLD in the current game (which is about to change in three days) is to charge your Limit Break gauge faster.

When you see claims that WAR can tank everything wearing full STR accessories and in their DPS stance and healers supporting that, you know that the PLD is broken when the producer of the game frankly tells you that low PLD dps is the job's identity.

Make no mistake, the full VIT PLD is very valuable in the DF when you don't know what the healers and DPS are going to do. But in a static, it seems to be the consensus that you're just better off with a WAR. Anyone who talks about how important tank dps is and how healers have no trouble healing any tank in dps stance the full time, is necessarily saying that PLD as a job is completely unneeded and a hindrance to the raid.

If you say tank dps is important yet play a PLD, you're wilfully gimping your raid dps.

PLD is, and forever will be, the ideal MT. Don't mistake existing content for challenging content. Currently WAR is probably the best MT, but that's not due to an underlying kit that heavily favors MT (Nor is it due to extreme unbalance as I'm sure many will suggest), but rather because the current content is so unbelievably easy that all tanks are equally capable of MT and so as a result, "the best" defaults to the tank who can output the highest numbers (WAR). Most Savage statics will want a PLD as their MT initially and, by my guess, in the long run. If you're looking to MT then PLD is the right choice for you in challenging content. If you're not talking about challenging content it's completely irrelevant.

I'm not sure why so many people here are suggesting PLD is bad. Their mitigation is unparalleled, they have the only valuable "ultimate" tank ability, and they have extremely good utility. I see no scenario where either a DRK or WAR would perform better as a traditional tank than a PLD, even when taking predominantly magic damage. That said, when players are over-geared, content is under-tuned or easy, or when optimizing damage output over mitigation, then yes, PLD falls off, but as a strict mitigation tank there's nothing that beats PLD.

Sounds like every tank wants to be a DPS but don't won't to play a DPS class.

All tanks are the best MT under different scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Sounds like every tank wants to be a DPS but don't won't to play a DPS class.

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Its the current trend fit optimal performance. Such as in 11 people used to kite kirin then Kraken everything happened. The thing about tanks wearing all str accesories is that is noticeable when someone doesn't know what their doing.
Don't get me wrong I'm one of these str accessory wars as well, but not until I know the fight like the back of me hand

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Originally Posted by Zfz

The only value of PLD in the current game (which is about to change in three days) is to charge your Limit Break gauge faster.

When you see claims that WAR can tank everything wearing full STR accessories and in their DPS stance and healers supporting that, you know that the PLD is broken when the producer of the game frankly tells you that low PLD dps is the job's identity.

But in a static, it seems to be the consensus that you're just better off with a WAR. Anyone who talks about how important tank dps is and how healers have no trouble healing any tank in dps stance the full time, is necessarily saying that PLD as a job is completely unneeded and a hindrance to the raid.

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Except most healers, at least on the forums, are sick of deliverance war tanks. It might be because most of them are bad, but I'm 100% sure that healers do have a hard time healing str WAR.

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Originally Posted by Doudousteve

What? How did you come to that conclusion?

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PLD :
- Worst DPS out of the 3 tanks classes. Now better than what it used to be, but still.
- Less mitigation than DRK, and WAR have Inner Beast which is the best defensive skill in this game since 2.1.
- Most ppl say it's the "best" tank against physical damage. It's simply wrong. Block/Parry is RNG, thus not reliable, and Halone combo is too weak.
- Doesn't increase DPS for other party members (WAR increase Tanks and NIN's DPS).
- Has the weakest damage debuff (-5% STR).
- Run out of TP in most fights. WAR now have TP restore and damaging GCD that doesn't cost TP, and yeah this is bullshit. DRK also have huge issues with TP, but will never be as useless as any other classes out of PT since it can maintain ~70% of its DPS with MP only, and your overall DPS will only decrease by ~12% if you're fighting for 8min straight without jump phase or any help for your TP.

Since 2.1, you can clear every endgame content (savage included) with 2 WAR that aren't even max VIT.

And healers that have trouble healing tanks are simply bad. Tanks can survive to any tank buster with only 1 CD if healers do their job properly (really it's almost all about the SCH).

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Originally Posted by Doudousteve

Except most healers, at least on the forums, are sick of deliverance war tanks. It might be because most of them are bad, but I'm 100% sure that healers do have a hard time healing str WAR.

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umm... basically every tank out of their tank stance pulling large mobs.

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Originally Posted by Kleys

PLD :
- Worst DPS out of the 3 tanks classes. Now better than what it used to be, but still.
- Less mitigation than DRK, and WAR have Inner Beast which is the best defensive skill in this game since 2.1.
- Most ppl say it's the "best" tank against physical damage. It's simply wrong. Block/Parry is RNG, thus not reliable, and Halone combo is too weak.
- Doesn't increase DPS for other party members (WAR increase Tanks and NIN's DPS).
- Has the weakest damage debuff (-5% STR).
- Run out of TP in most fights. WAR now have TP restore and damaging GCD that doesn't cost TP, and yeah this is bullshit. DRK also have huge issues with TP, but will never be as useless as any other classes out of PT since it can maintain ~70% of its DPS with MP only, and your overall DPS will only decrease by ~12% if you're fighting for 8min straight without jump phase or any help for your TP.
Since 2.1, you can clear every endgame content (savage included) with 2 WAR that aren't even max VIT.

And healers that have trouble healing tanks are simply bad. Tanks can survive to any tank buster with only 1 CD if healers do their job properly (really it's almost all about the SCH).

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1. Yes, they are the worst DPS tank. It's deliberate.
2. No, PLD doesn't have less mitigation than WAR or DRK. They have more and better defensive CDs as well as better passive (Though unreliable) mitigation.
3. It is the best against physical, and magical too. Block is reliable as a PLD due to Shelltron and Bulwark.
4. Yes, PLD doesn't have all of the utility other tanks have, it would be dumb if they did.
5. Rage of Halone is a 10% reduction. WAR damage reduction is better, but DRK certainly isn't against physical damage.
6. PLD has quite good TP sustain as MT, they need help as OT admittedly. DRK has trouble with both TP and MP. Even WAR has trouble with TP if content doesn't afford them the opportunity to swap to Deliverance, most does, but in more challenging content as a MT it's not likely.

You've also neglected to mention the numerous strengths of PLD. You've basically chosen only to criticize their weakest points in an attempt to support your argument. PLD has the absolute best utility of the tanks, the best mitigation, offers the most substantial safety net for mistakes (Which are realistically always a concern, even among the absolute best players), and offers the potential to nullify mechanics in numerous fights due to their demonstrable defense and their useful tank ultimate (Whereas the other two tank ultimate skills are disgustingly worthless).

I really don't think it matters which tank you use in the current hardest content (Alexander) except maybe in A4.

A1- Both tanks can take either Oppressor and don't tank the adds anyway. Though for the mini-boss I'd rather have a War or Drk tanking it just to speed it up a little more.

A2- The only adds that are remotely dangerous are the Jagd dolls and if your dps on the tank is doing their job and the healers are still awake by that point, you're fine.

A3- I started doing the strat where you have the whole raid soak the cleave together, then the only dangerous thing is the boss auto attack in that phase which is easy enough to deal with since the cleave damage becomes negligible. In the last phase, so long as your tanks are swapping correctly on their stacks it's also fine.

A4- Now here, I much prefer to have the warrior or drk MT here while I OT, mostly because I've played with both that have been able to use their cooldowns to eat every Perpetual Ray without the need for a tank swap. That in turn freed me up as a Pld to cast my heal and stoneskin on the tanks and the healers while soaking orbs myself.

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Originally Posted by Ryahask

stuff

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2. More? yes. Better? not really. in raid content where CDs usually matter for those tank busters, they are almost in the same boat, with WAR being the clear winner having access to inner beast around every 20s.
3. for magic damage they have 2 CDs. 2! rampart and sentinel. unless you also count divine veil, but this requires you to get a heal before it means anything and it's probably better to be saved for a raid wide move and not those tank busters. well if the mob needs more than 3s to cast you could count stoneskin maybe
5. it's 10% less str of the mob, not damage. an attack could have a base potency of 10k while the mob only has 50 str. your 10% less str won't matter at all in this case. the attack will still hurt. Only reason drk falls short in this category is cause int down can also be provided by a mnk
6. all tanks have the same tp requirement on their combos. but inner beast doesn't need tp and war has the option to get 200 tp back every minute, so they are the clear winner here. and drk has access to some magic, while your dps will fall it can still give some time to recover tp. pld though has nothing like this. especially if you have to pick up something on top of what you tank with shield lob, they are the worst when it comes to tp.

Point is Taint you stated that PLDs are behind in Alexander which we aren't period ?
WAY behind is too excessive in this case, and I did average for me. I don't pop food as a PLD in raids I know its not needed nore do I throw up POTs, but if you can maintain 700+ DPS w/o food/pots as a PLD then I'm playing my job wrong and I'll reconsider my rotation. Oh and noted this is without coming out of Shield Oath , are these OT #s because starting with 20% of your damage gone I can only imagine you being out of Shield Oath your PLD pulling close to 850ish DPS then ?
No sarcasm I truly applaud you and all PLDs out there pumping 700 dps in Shield Oath if Im wrong
But anyways

I like the other 2 tanks , and what they bring to the table ,but in Alex The SO CALLED Heavy Magic Damage I've yet to see...given that our three biggest CDs can wipe the floor with any Current Magical Attack IN the game considering that they don't only block Physical but Magical as well ?

Look at our CDs

Rampart - All Damage
Sentinel - All damage
Hallowed Ground - All damage

Hasn't been an encounter yet to where I can't weave these three in and not having to worry about dying. You guys are taking this ''Magic Damage'' too far ,
Last Phase Of Alex A4 is the only Magic Damage heavy phase in Alex which can easily be handled by PLDs
STR Debuff alr applied to target at pretty much a 100% up keep, which are pretty much all cleaves and frontal swipes/autoattacks reduced

Cross Class- WARs phsycial CD

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

No sarcasm I truly applaud you and all PLDs out there pumping 700 dps in Shield Oath if Im wrong

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But why do you even tank Alexander in Shield oath? Except for MT role in A4 there is little reason to do so, even when pugging. :/

I'm always MT and probably always will be. I do however play all 3 tank jobs.

I stance dance like every tank should, plan out CD rotations for each fight and map out DPS.

This brings up one of PLDs biggest flaws. Halone. Our lowest DPS combo is also our hate combo. While WARs don't care which stance they are in for their rotation, PLD has to sacrifice DPS for hate. A huge oversight on SEs part. An OT PLD has zero chance of pulling hate but an OT WAR does. DRK isn't as bad either way.

I look forward to savage, I'll be forced to play PLD for a bit until the fights are picked apart but that is my statics preference even though it's not ideal.

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Originally Posted by Perzeval

But why do you even tank Alexander in Shield oath? Except for MT role in A4 there is little reason to do so, even when pugging. :/

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A1 I sheild oath until the split after that I'm out ..... which is why my dps scraps around 581ish im sure if I sword oath right after gaining agro itll be upwards of 700 but I choose not to

A2 Jag Dolls hit hard , even in shield oath , I hate all these unrealistic tanks , if I can mitigate damage for healers Im going to do it and agro hold is important here so yes Shield oath is a must and if youre the true main tank here you're holding multiple enemies at time.

A3 After gaining agro , I switch to sword oath , occasionally switching in out through out the add phase

A4 Gain agro on the leg , and sword oath , P4 shield oath

A1 Why do you choose to stay in Shield oath after gaining aggro? The opressor hits like a wet noodle and there is zero pressure on healers even if both tanks go DPS stance.

A2 understandable if pugging and DPS are bad at burning the dolls down. But then again, dolls appear only 4 times out of 8 waves, with one double doll final wave that can be dealt with your Limit break. Actually you should let your WAR buddy tank those using Unchained to reduce DPS loss. A2 is the worst level for bringing a Paladin as a "MT" because their only effective aoe enmity skill is Flash.

A3 You can start with sword oath and keep doing Halone combo till you have enough aggro lead, no reason to start with shield oath. The hand damage is shared with your group / OT anyway.

A4 same as A3

Of course you won't be able to stay ahead with sword oath if you are full VIT.

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

if I can mitigate damage for healers Im going to do it

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Healer being the easiest job to play in FFXIV, I really don't get why random tanks are still babysitting their healers.

Stop it already.