SCH vs AST?

Been hearing alot that AST healing is worse than WHM/SCH?

How exactly is this class worse than SCH?

I hate to be that guy but there are multi pages threads right below you discussion this topic. The bottom line is AST isn't as reliable as the other two are because of less emergency heals and oh-shit that is happening buttons. But really to get a full understanding please read those threads.

It's like one hundred thousand times worse. If a WHM/SCH heals 1000, AST will heal for 10. Not to mention 20s cast time for benefic doesn't help either.

If you are not trolling, then you just should read one of the hundred post talking about this. The search function is your friend.

il point out a few things...

sch heals are stronger in general on top of having a healing pet that constantly pumps out heals.
sch has a much easier time with mp then astro because they have aetherflow.
sch currently now has a powerful oh shit button that can be used 9 times back to back to back with a 1 second recast time that can be used while moving.
sch has better and more reliable damage support then astro just in the selene pet which spams a action speed buff with a 30 sec durration and 60 sec cd (50% up time) on top of already doing more damage while the pet is still pumping out heals.


asto has weaker heals then the other 2 healers in general in exchange for being able to choose its healing style (hot's or shielding) and RNG buffs that are for the most part unreliable.
astro has a buff that actually lowers its healing power considerably in exchange for instant casting which is for the most part useless because a swiftcasted heal is usually enough for most situations and doesn't lower your healing potency by 25% for 15 seconds.
essential dignity is the only real oh shit button they have that is about the power of a cure II only when the tank is about to die with a 40 sec recast time
they have a harder time with MP then the other 2 healers due to only having luminous aether as the only means to recover mp.
their bubble skill collective unconscious is very clunky (cannot move at all or use any actions while its up, you have to be in the spot you want it to be because it is not placed) while being exactly the same as either sch placed sacred soil or whm placed hot bubble depending on the stance.

You are seeing alot of bias so far, so I will give you the facts.

Astro can handle all current content fine, but there is reasonable worry for savage Alex. Their heals and mp management is slightly lower than the other healers. Not a huge difference but over the course of a fight the parse does show this. They have one powerful emergency heal (have personally done 10k with it) but only one, 40 sec CD. The biggest thing I would say is its quite hard to carry mistakes like I used to on whm in DF groups.

In most content I have been parsing as astro much better than the sch's I've run into, and that's including their fairy. But I believe this is more of a skill problem, skilled sch's are few and far between, but the good ones will trump astro by a good bit. Whm are truley a powerhouse right now, in Alex fights lately I've been around 1400-1500 HPS on astro where whm are 1500-1800. Sch for has been around 1000-1100 (300 being fairy) then whatever shield mitigation added in.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

You are seeing alot of bias so far, so I will give you the facts.

Astro can handle all current content fine, but there is reasonable worry for savage Alex. Their heals and mp management is slightly lower than the other healers. Not a huge difference

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We are like SCH on MP? not a huge difference? Yeah, we all know you love the AST (i do it too), but you are never realistic in your comments...

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Originally Posted by winsock

Been hearing alot that AST healing is worse than WHM/SCH?

How exactly is this class worse than SCH?

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Neither are worse than the other, each class has its own benefits and different roles in raid.
WHM is a solid raid healer
SCH is a solid mitigation healer
AST will be a solid support healer

There is little reason to start the who is better debate (none are better), especially due to the fact SE has admitted to AST needing a lot of card changes. It's too preemptive to make judgement. Furthermore, it is too preemptive to make judgement based on the current level of content, when we have no idea what savage will be about.

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Originally Posted by Arcana

We are like SCH on MP? not a huge difference? Yeah, we all know you love the AST (i do it too), but you are never realistic in your comments...

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Nah with spear on LA, CO to add 5 more seconds of refresh, and self ewers I feel I have better mp management than I did on my whm in 2.0. I guess maybe some don't utilize thier options which might cause worse mp issues. But my comment was very realistic, I even leaned towards saying astro is worse than the other two, what do you all want to hear lol.

AST abilities excel at sustaining the party. A lot of its abilities, while slightly lower potency than other classes, also cost a bit less MP. Avoiding overheal and utilizing HoT's smartly will keep your rate of MP consumption pretty stable.

However, when players start making mistakes or AST falls behind, that overheal becomes harder to avoid, and AST must use its basic healing kit to catch up. WHM has DS, Tetragrammaton, Assize, Benediction, and Asylum, while SCH has Lustrate, Indomitability, and the fairy's sustained healing and CD's, depending on the fairy, as entirely MP free ways of catching up. AST only has Essential Dignity, an instant fire heal that scales up to 1000 potency based on the target's remaining HP, and Synastry, which gives 50% of your heals to a single target.

This means that AST will be casting more heals in comparison to SCH or WHM, so they must be more vigilant of their MP, as patching up continued mistakes will take a toll on AST the hardest. However, when things are going smoothly, mechanics are handled properly and excessive damage is avoided, AST really shines. It can maintain HoT's without straining itself, throw down buffs to conserve the party's resources or pass DPS checks faster, and has strong mobility, allowing it to heal while dealing with mechanics or dodging.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

In most content I have been parsing as astro much better than the sch's I've run into, and that's including their fairy. But I believe this is more of a skill problem, skilled sch's are few and far between, but the good ones will trump astro by a good bit. Whm are truley a powerhouse right now, in Alex fights lately I've been around 1400-1500 HPS on astro where whm are 1500-1800. Sch for has been around 1000-1100 (300 being fairy) then whatever shield mitigation added in.

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You should not use hps to determine how skilled a SCH is since the shields dont count. That SCH could be doing much better than the other two but it wouldnt show that on a parser because the shields, which are a huge part of SCH, dont count towards it

Yes I mentioned that.

I mained SCH since I started FFXIV then I switched to AST and I've never looked back. Ive only ever ran into 1 or 2 occasions where I've had to throw myself a hi-elixer. It takes quite a bit of patience to get into the groove of playing AST. I understand fully how new AST have MP issues.

It comes I think from playing SCH, when your MP pot felt endless so you could do what you want, when you want. With AST it's all a bit more reserved and casting at the absolute right moments. Precision is key.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderThorolund

I mained SCH since I started FFXIV then I switched to AST and I've never looked back. Ive only ever ran into 1 or 2 occasions where I've had to throw myself a hi-elixer. It takes quite a bit of patience to get into the groove of playing AST. I understand fully how new AST have MP issues.

It comes I think from playing SCH, when your MP pot felt endless so you could do what you want, when you want. With AST it's all a bit more reserved and casting at the absolute right moments. Precision is key.

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That's kind of an issue though. The job is much less forgiving for no reward at all. It doesn't even buff the party as well as a sch does for meeting dps checks in the long run.

Atually lets talk about this....

What does an astro do better than a sch?

Because it can't heal as well.
can't dps as easily.
and buffs are kinda iffy because you can't really count on rng. Good buffs on astro sometimes being few and far between.

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Originally Posted by o3o

Atually lets talk about this....

What does an astro do better than a sch?

Because it can't heal as well.
can't dps as easily.
and buffs are kinda iffy because you can't really count on rng. Good buffs on astro sometimes being few and far between.

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We have the heart of the cards. But really, you want to talk about the same thing this forum section has gone over endlessly.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Nah with spear on LA, CO to add 5 more seconds of refresh, and self ewers I feel I have better mp management than I did on my whm in 2.0. I guess maybe some don't utilize thier options which might cause worse mp issues. But my comment was very realistic, I even leaned towards saying astro is worse than the other two, what do you all want to hear lol.

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Please can you be impartial? Everyone loves AST there, its flaws are real.

Who cares that the ast can heal the current content? Everyone knows.

When reading your posts it seems you believe that the ast has nothing wrong and it's the perfect job. But it's wrong. Even if it's your opinion it's heavy, all the time, to see the same arguments that have already been opposed by most players.

SCH vs AST?

Imagine being a SCH. But having weaker heals/shields in general, having atherflow with triple longer cooldown, and having 1 lustrate every 40 seconds or so. And imagine having no fairy next to you. But having some cards that are very random, and in the best case with best combination still are below mediocre, that's how it feels being AST with nocturnal.
Its fun as hell but most of abilities need adjustments or complete rework

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Originally Posted by Khyan

Please can you be impartial? Everyone loves AST there, its flaws are real.

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He can't. He believes AST is perfect and that anyone who feels it has shortcomings that need to be addressed by SE is a "scrub."

How about we move to the other topics cause this matter has been discussed again and again and again and now I remembered every single point you guys made already...

And maybe refrain from making such topics before doing some research first.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

He can't. He believes AST is perfect and that anyone who feels it has shortcomings that need to be addressed by SE is a "scrub."

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Lol I guess I have made my opinion seem that way. Sorry I'm just a long time gamer, the guy that can play the players in super smash that everyone considers bad and make them look good. I have said more than once that astro could use tweaking, but there are many threads so it prolly didn't reach many ears (eyes?). If you want the honest truth I've started leveling whm to 60 cause there has been multiple DF groups I can't carry as ast, where I could probably as whm. So there's that.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Lol I guess I have made my opinion seem that way. Sorry I'm just a long time gamer, the guy that can play the players in super smash that everyone considers bad and make them look good. I have said more than once that astro could use tweaking, but there are many threads so it prolly didn't reach many ears (eyes?). If you want the honest truth I've started leveling whm to 60 cause there has been multiple DF groups I can't carry as ast, where I could probably as whm. So there's that.

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Don't get me wrong, it's not that I dislike AST. I like it very much. In fact, back before the expansion actually came out, I really wanted it to become my main healer. I just feel that there are aspects of some of the skills that need heavy tweaking or new things added.

For example, they stated Celestial Opposition would get an "Ast like" tweak that would vary based on stance. So, I am hoping that it actually means a regen gets added in Diurnal or a shield in Nocturnal, because for such a gorgeous level 60 skill, it feels fairly useless right now (other than extending buffs by a whole 5 seconds).

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Lol I guess I have made my opinion seem that way. Sorry I'm just a long time gamer, the guy that can play the players in super smash that everyone considers bad and make them look good. I have said more than once that astro could use tweaking, but there are many threads so it prolly didn't reach many ears (eyes?). If you want the honest truth I've started leveling whm to 60 cause there has been multiple DF groups I can't carry as ast, where I could probably as whm. So there's that.

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I'm just going to reply to this since you used a fighting game example.

Being able to use a low tier character in a higher tier environment doesn't make them "not low tier". It just means you know how to play them at a high level of skill - this is more indicative of your skill as a player and less about the kit given to a particular character (or class/job, in the case of XIV).

If two players of equal skill play each other, and one picks a low tier character and the other picks a high tier character, the person who picked the higher tier character has a higher chance of success in winning the match.

This is the same thing here. Just because you know how to play AST at a higher level of skill than most means you do just that - you play AST at a higher skill level. It doesn't change the fact that the toolkit itself could use some work.

I'm not saying this to be negative towards you. I'm just providing you some food for thought so you can change the way you approach the thought process of balancing.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Astro can handle all current content fine

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Addendum: AST can heal all current content just fine if the group is competent and avoids avoidable damage.

If multiple players in your group are getting hit by AoEs, AST completely falls apart whereas the other healers have the emergency buttons to save a situation like this from becoming a wipe.

Also, AST's card buffs simply aren't worth the tradeoff of lacking the solid emergency options that the other healers have.

I have both AST and SCH and cleared all content so far with my static using both jobs. AST is fine, but SCH makes things a lot smoother. Just looking at the stats makes me sad. SCH heals 40% more than the AST (using Diurnal Sect, mind you) and those 40% are all comming from the pet, Lustrate and Indomability i.E. for free. Heck, looking at the numbers, if I constantly keep the Selene buff up it does basically the same than the AST cards, unless I have a really good draw. Not to mention the loss of E4E and Virus really hurt. Add the awesome SCH dps and mana management and it really feels like gimping my friends when I want to play around with cards. Kinda ironic seeing it is supposed to be a support kinda healer.

But once again: You can do all content with every healer combination.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

I hate to be that guy but there are multi pages threads right below you discussion this topic. The bottom line is AST isn't as reliable as the other two are because of less emergency heals and oh-shit that is happening buttons. But really to get a full understanding please read those threads.

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Lol don't worry about being that guy. If it not "use search" its "don't necro" or "don't derail"

Question though, how does it have less 'oh-shit' stuff than SCH?
AB is instant on gcd
ED is instant
Benefic II is a proc for instant
Light speed causes several things to be instant

I guess where im coming from is AST definitely doesnt throw out WHM heals, but SCH doesnt either and is still considered good. SCH has lustrate saves, but AST has access to more AoE than SCH and its saves are more accessible

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

I have both AST and SCH and cleared all content so far with my static using both jobs. AST is fine, but SCH makes things a lot smoother. Just looking at the stats makes me sad. SCH heals 40% more than the AST (using Diurnal Sect, mind you) and those 40% are all comming from the pet, Lustrate and Indomability i.E. for free. Heck, looking at the numbers, if I constantly keep the Selene buff up it does basically the same than the AST cards, unless I have a really good draw. Not to mention the loss of E4E and Virus really hurt. Add the awesome SCH dps and mana management and it really feels like gimping my friends when I want to play around with cards. Kinda ironic seeing it is supposed to be a support kinda healer.

But once again: You can do all content with every healer combination.

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I agree that AST needs buffs, especially in their cards... however a Scholar doesn't have any HoT outside of their pets/Eos. And their direct heal potencies are outright lower than AST. SCH pays half their healing potency in return to make that half they lost into a shield. We do not have consistent access to a cure2-equivalent ability at the same time, nor a media (1) ability equivalent. We traded those abilities for succor (150 healing potency) and aldoquim (300 heal potency). An AST will always have more access to direct healing than a scholar ever will just based upon that.

Also... Lustrate and indominability each cost an aetherflow stack which only 3 can be held every 60 seconds. They are not free and I am starting to become pissy whenever I read it is free. No, they are not free, they are on a separate currency than MP and bound to it. Blow 3 aetherflows on 3 600 potency (same as cure 2) abilities and then you lose access to indominability, 10% damage migation dome, bane and energy drain. You simply do not get these abilities. It is a tether to the abilities restricting their use as much as it is "free". You choose 3, any 3, and once you choose them you're done.

That does not equal free. It is a separate currency that needs to be managed wisely or you face a wipe.

Ast is a healer made for near if not perfect parties. Their buffs only shine when ur party is good etc.
There is kinda no middle ground atm with ast.
Being in a good party or a bad one will heavily dictate ur job's usefullness as healing stupid/ failed mechanic dmg is really hard as ast.
Player skill can only do so much till u hit that brick wall of i just cant. Then SE tells u to get good and play even better.
Y u do thissssss ;-;

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I agree that AST needs buffs, especially in their cards... however a Scholar doesn't have any HoT outside of their pets/Eos. And their direct heal potencies are outright lower than AST. SCH pays half their healing potency in return to make that half they lost into a shield. We do not have consistent access to a cure2-equivalent ability at the same time, nor a media (1) ability equivalent. We traded those abilities for succor (150 healing potency) and aldoquim (300 heal potency). An AST will always have more access to direct healing than a scholar ever will just based upon that.

Also... Lustrate and indominability each cost an aetherflow stack which only 3 can be held every 60 seconds. They are not free and I am starting to become pissy whenever I read it is free. No, they are not free, they are on a separate currency than MP and bound to it. Blow 3 aetherflows on 3 600 potency (same as cure 2) abilities and then you lose access to indominability, 10% damage migation dome, bane and energy drain. You simply do not get these abilities. It is a tether to the abilities restricting their use as much as it is "free". You choose 3, any 3, and once you choose them you're done.

That does not equal free. It is a separate currency that needs to be managed wisely or you face a wipe.

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You make a good point, and it's an important distinction. SCH's need to choose how to spend their resources just as smartly as AST. Adloquium and Succor are not spammable abilities, not only because of Galvanize, but their significantly higher MP cost. Benefic II, for example, is nearly 3/4 the cost of Adlo, with a higher potency. Smartly injecting Aetherflow abilities to minimize casted heals is what allows SCH their extended MP reach, not simply the access to 3 lustrates per minute.

AST does indeed have spammable abilities like Benefic II and Helios, but must budget their MP wisely to avoid running dry. We all need to be mindful of our resources, if you tap yourself out just dealing with the mundane in battle, you'll be caught off guard when someone makes a mistake, turning what could be a salvageable mistake into a costly res.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Lol don't worry about being that guy. If it not "use search" its "don't necro" or "don't derail"

Question though, how does it have less 'oh-shit' stuff than SCH?
AB is instant on gcd
ED is instant
Benefic II is a proc for instant
Light speed causes several things to be instant

I guess where im coming from is AST definitely doesnt throw out WHM heals, but SCH doesnt either and is still considered good. SCH has lustrate saves, but AST has access to more AoE than SCH and its saves are more accessible

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As a sch, I usually out-heal a whitemage, but maybe thats not the norm.
SCH instant heals don't lower healing potency by 25%
Sacred Soil, can be used twice a minute, allows scholar to keep casting and moving. Larger radius than Collective Unconscious too
Shadow Flare (aoe slow)
Fey Illumination: 20% healing buff
Fey Convalescence: 20% magic resistance
Dissipate: 20% healing buff
Lustrate/Indominability
Eye for an Eye
Virus

AST has a slightly higher mana pool than SCH, but vastly smaller mana recovery options.
An instant cast benefic2 doesn't help increase healing throughput, it simply gives you the heal at the start of the GCD instead of after it.
This is good for times when a dps accidentally takes a hit they shouldn't, and somehow barely survives, but its not good when you need *burst* healing for 20 seconds.
Essential Dignity is amazing, but its the only real emergency tool that AST have.
Not having eye for an eye is a huge drawback, but it doesn't surprise me that many people fail to see its value.

AST doesn't have any cooldowns to increase potency, only to decrease it. Arrow card on self is the only way they can increase their effective healing throughput, or a bole card, which is less effective than sacred soil. Neither card can be reliably used for an "emergency" without negating the only real support that they can offer.

AST can heal within normal range just fine, its when you try to push the limits of what is possible that their shortcomings show clearly. Try running a dungeon where you pull 4 groups of trash at a time, watch the tank pop cooldowns, and the AST, try as they might, have a very hard cap on how much healing throughput they can do in a 30s burst window. Both WHM and SCH will leave them in the dust.

Hopefully SE will address their shortcomings before savage comes out. It is a fun class, it just feels handicapped right now.

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Originally Posted by Tashim

AST doesn't have any cooldowns to increase potency, only to decrease it.

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OMG. You have no idea how hard I just laughed at this. This is as blunt as it gets. Oh my goodness! I love you!

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Originally Posted by Tashim

As a sch, I usually out-heal a whitemage, but maybe thats not the norm.

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The only people who should outheal a WHM is another WHM unless somebody is doing something really wrong. Either the WHM is really slacking or you are really overhealing by a lot. Especially since SCH focuses more on preventing damage than healing it back up.

I personally think that AST bring some very interesting things to the party. Depending on their stance they make a good compliment to both WHM and SCH, in theory. Actual implimentation depends on the skill of the player and your party mates. Personally? I think they're fun, they really do require you to be on top of things because your mistakes are more easily seen. However as you get more comfortable to them they are a perfectly fun and fine class. This is just based on my experience with them.

Though I do find it unfair to hold them directly up against SCH or WHM since the playstyle that AST offers isn't really the same as either of the other two available healing classes.

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Originally Posted by NamiNamai

I personally think that AST bring some very interesting things to the party. Depending on their stance they make a good compliment to both WHM and SCH, in theory. Actual implimentation depends on the skill of the player and your party mates. Personally? I think they're fun, they really do require you to be on top of things because your mistakes are more easily seen. However as you get more comfortable to them they are a perfectly fun and fine class. This is just based on my experience with them.

Though I do find it unfair to hold them directly up against SCH or WHM since the playstyle that AST offers isn't really the same as either of the other two available healing classes.

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the thing is that yes, you have to hold them up to either whm or sch, because they compete for spots in raid partys. they both have the same basic role. and that is to keep the party alive. and as it stands the things you lose from not having either a whm or a sch and subbing one for a astro is not as good as just having the tried and tested whm and sch combo.

ofc its completely viable if you have an astro + whatever. just its not as powerful as the whm sch wombo combo.

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Originally Posted by Tashim

As a sch, I usually out-heal a whitemage, but maybe thats not the norm.

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Ahahaha, that was a good laugh.

I rarely see a sch break even 1k HPS including their fairy. While a whm that is nodding off will be 1500+. Mitigation is the name of the game for sch, you will never outheal a whm or astro. And you can't count shields into HPS because things like succor are often not used because the player didnt take dmg. Obviously this doesnt reflect anything bad about sch's, I just thought it was hilarious he said he outheals whms.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Ahahaha, that was a good laugh.

I rarely see a sch break even 1k HPS including their fairy. While a whm that is nodding off will be 1500+. Mitigation is the name of the game for sch, you will never outheal a whm or astro. And you can't count shields into HPS because things like succor are often not used because the player didnt take dmg. Obviously this doesnt reflect anything bad about sch's, I just thought it was hilarious he said he outheals whms.

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It's fully possible, whether you think it is or not. Especially the AST part; while in PF, I often outheal ASTs by 50% or more while maintaining 250+ DPS on SCH in Alexander. Just because you're not capable of doing it, doesn't mean other people aren't. And the 1k HPS part? Seriously? With Indomitability and Emergency Tactics, SCH's burst healing capacity is pretty beefy.

I have to agree with GideonHighmourn here. @Rav EX I am pretty consistent with 1.3k (without fairy) hps and that is if I don't just spam my abilties because of why not.

Why are you guys even talking about HPS as if it meant something? It's not some competition where you maximize your numerical throughput in the same way you minmax DPS. I would be more interested in the overhealing % and the added extra contribution in terms of off-DPS. Look, I have all this HPS! Wohoo.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Ahahaha, that was a good laugh.

I rarely see a sch break even 1k HPS including their fairy. While a whm that is nodding off will be 1500+. Mitigation is the name of the game for sch, you will never outheal a whm or astro. And you can't count shields into HPS because things like succor are often not used because the player didnt take dmg. Obviously this doesnt reflect anything bad about sch's, I just thought it was hilarious he said he outheals whms.

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Either your SCHs are terrible or they're sitting in Cleric Stance for 80% of the fight.

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Originally Posted by Krixus

Ahahaha, that was a good laugh.

I rarely see a sch break even 1k HPS including their fairy. While a whm that is nodding off will be 1500+. Mitigation is the name of the game for sch, you will never outheal a whm or astro. And you can't count shields into HPS because things like succor are often not used because the player didnt take dmg. Obviously this doesnt reflect anything bad about sch's, I just thought it was hilarious he said he outheals whms.

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can please stop making scholars looks like sux class? in 3.0 scholars are really fine healer class -.- i can pull +1.5 ~2k HPS anytime anywhere, can solo heal RavanaEX without problem like any other WHM (dont have 190 wpn yet from that bug >,..,< )

http://i.imgur.com/Y6DNIG0.png

im only leveling WHM now because im fed up with double scholar everywhere ~.~