Competative dps for BRD and MCH

Ok so there are a few threads going over the problems with both these jobs at the moment.

Now I do not want to repeat them here but I think these problems stem from the fact they are gimped for no reason other than the fact the stand at range and deal physical damage.

They are dps classes first and foremost, they are not support or debuffers. They are placed in queues as dps, their gear is for dps and nothing outside of a few abilites offer utility. This profile fits on every single dps job in the game but for some reason the idea these two jobs dps shoud be intentionally gimped constantly for being "supporters" is a fallacy.

This post sums it all up perfectly -

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Originally Posted by Ramath

I'm still at a loss as to why BRD and MCN are being accepted as lowest dps in a party composition. BRD and MCN still take up a DPS slot. Shouldn't they be expected to pull their share of the DPS responsibility?

"BRD and MCN can buff the other DPS in the party."
-Well, sure, but doesn't DRG and WAR do the same thing? BRD gets a penalty for buffing others by lowering their own. MCN can only do it for 15 sec out of 90. DRG keeps theirs up 100% (ideally.) MNK can boost healing effectiveness for the party. NIN can boost damage for the party for a time, as well with Trick Attack.

"BRD and MCN can always attack and don't have to stop moving."
-Neither does my DRG... Yes, I know I'm limited to melee range, but having cleared T1-13 on my DRG, having to stay out of range during times when the boss was still targetable and attackable was EXTREMELY rare. With two different gap-closeres, my DRG never stopped hitting. Besides, my SMN is able to keep up an extremely high percentage of its damage while on the move, as well. Not to mention the fact that, guess what, BRD and MCN have to stop moving now, too, for WM and GB.

"MCN has so many other abilities to affect the fight."
-In theory, but not in practical application. Almost every boss in the game is immune to stun, silence, knockback, heavy, and bind. That's five of our abilities we can't use in a boss fight, and almost all of our utility. Sure, we get a defensive cooldown that nerfs the boss, but so does SMN...

"BRD and MCH can give tp/mp to other classes."
-So can NIN. On top of that, I was always expected to manage my own TP as DRG and MP as SMN. Yes, our BRD was there to sing for our healers, but since when does that increase our DPS? The times when our BRD played a TP song to help regen the TP of a DPS who died, it never increased my ability to deal damage as my DRG. Having to stop dealing damage to help a party member, sure, that sounds 100% logical. But when I'm not helping my healers, why am I still sitting at the bottom of the list, undisputed?


Yes, BRD and MCN are different from the other DPS, as they should be. I don't expect every job to play the same. I DO expect, however, that every role be able to perform on the same level. All healers should be able to keep their party alive. All tanks should be able to survive getting their face smashed in. All DPS should be able to keep up their share of the required DPS checks.

The days of MMO's being filled with large, open-world bosses with the ranged DPS standing up on a rock to height-mitigate damage, are gone. No longer do the melee have to constantly 'joust' to avoid constant spam of 360-degree AoEs. Why are we still treating ranged DPS like this? Having played both ranged, caster, and melee dps in T1-13, the argument that the backline has to move less is complete garbage. I had to move MORE as a BLM and SMN than I ever did as a DRG.

So, why are we okay with DRG and SMN parsing extremely high, while BRD and MCN parse so much lower?
Outside of giving MP to our beloved healers, why should we be allowed to attend raids?

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It seems this has growing support since the problems now just highlight this fundemental problem to an extreme degree.

I figured I'd post this to see how much support a change to this actually has.

"I'm still at a loss as to why BRD and MCN are being accepted as lowest dps in a party composition. BRD and MCN still take up a DPS slot."

AMEN!

Getting past Bismark at present is extremely difficult as is, (It is one massive MASSIVE dps check) at present more than 1 Bard EXCLUSIVE OR machinist will not make it past this boss without EXCEPTIONAL coordination.


They take up a DPS slot, despite their utility... it doesn't matter how much utility you bring if the team can not get past the DPS checks. Which are obviously EXTREMELY tight at present.

The absolute slowest I've ever seen the third trial in Heavensward go was when we had 3 bards. They really should just make Minuet / Gauss give you great DPS for being in those stances and having cast times associated with it.

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Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

The absolute slowest I've ever seen the third trial in Heavensward go was when we had 3 bards. They really should just make Minuet / Gauss give you great DPS for being in those stances and having cast times associated with it.

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The cast times are punishing enough as is, taking two super mobile classes and making them immobile is a slap to the face.

Removing auto attacks ontop of that is just... sadistic/cruel.

Yeah now we aren't mobile (which was a feature of the classes) and we lost our auto attacks ontop of it, it is too high of a cost.

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

The cast times are punishing enough as is, taking two super mobile classes and making them immobile is a slap to the face.

Removing auto attacks ontop of that is just... sadistic/cruel.

Yeah now we aren't mobile (which was a feature of the classes) and we lost our auto attacks ontop of it, it is too high of a cost.

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I believe you've noticed that the optimal MCH rotation does not require any casting at all.

Well, I think brd and much should do more dps than what has been reported.

Unfortunately, I also believe ranged dps should never match melee dps ( in single target ).The moment that happens, melee dps become irrelevant and a hinderance. No one cares that there are four ranged dps in a party. Everyone has space to operate. No one likes 4 melee dps in a party unless it just for "funsies" .

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Originally Posted by Leonus

Well, I think brd and much should do more dps than what has been reported.

Unfortunately, I also believe ranged dps should never match melee dps ( in single target ).The moment that happens, melee dps become irrelevant and a hinderance. No one cares that there are four ranged dps in a party. Everyone has space to operate. No one likes 4 melee dps in a party unless it just for "funsies" .

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Let's boot Summoner and Black Mage quick! Whenever there has been a raiding DPS check early on in content, yes you'll see 4 melee, hell you'll probably see 4 monks.

Let's also not forget the mechanics they add in fights includes ranged stuff, we're not getting a free ride sitting 10 yalms out.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Let's boot Summoner and Black Mage quick! Whenever there has been a raiding DPS check early on in content, yes you'll see 4 melee, hell you'll probably see 4 monks.

Let's also not forget the mechanics they add in fights includes ranged stuff, we're not getting a free ride sitting 10 yalms out.

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I don't see many of those. It's not even CLOSE to the norm. What will become the norm though is if rdps can go dead even with mdps, groups will not EVER take a mdps if a rdps is available. That will be commonplace, just like back in 2.0. Why bring mdps when a rdps can do the same with and handle mechanics better (overall)? The only way I would compromise as a player is to make melee AoE as strong as rdps AND make all melee gap closers usable every 2.5 seconds.

That way we can handle mechanics far away from the boss like rdps and get back instantly, whenever and from wherever. That would make things even.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

I don't see many of those. It's not even CLOSE to the norm. What will become the norm ...

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What about Summoner and Black Mage? What is your excuse for their existence and DPS? Back in 2.0 we also almost exclusively used 2 PLD parties, the whole debuff to the LB was in response to job stacking. Not to mention fight design has changed to not just be a bunch of up close mob AoE's but RAIDWIDE mechanics that everyone deals with, not just melee. If people are stacking ranged because a fight is so punishing to melee, that is a fight design issue, not a job one.

Check any DPS content that was close to release (Turn 8 is an example) where raiding DPS is an absolute necessity, in an effort to push these DPS checks people would use multiple monks because of lack of gear (was only obtainable by doing the dungeon with weekly lockouts).

Do a search for Turn X world first, count the monks, because they're typically stacking at least 2.

As a BRD main, my heart hurts. I'm at a cross roads, idk if i should level a new dps class or stick with brd. Knowing SE, it will take a while before they fix brd, and i would like to progress BISEX/ RAVEX.


Fixes: Well i believe a few things could do it:25% WM(might be asking too much but increase ws/dot potency as well), enable autoattacks during WM and eliminate dmg penalty for songs(why? because the whole reason for it was BRD's ability to move and dps, that's no longer an issue). Also OGCD timers reduced(SW).

I feel this way based on what SE did for blm. Yeah blm can't move and cast but when they do cast they do burst dmg. Brd should be the same way seeing they turned us into casters. I do love our burst now, but we just can't sustain the dps. I don't want brd to be king dps, i just want us to be able to contribute.

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Originally Posted by Athism

As a BRD main, my heart hurts. I'm at a cross roads, idk if i should level a new dps class or stick with brd. Knowing SE, it will take a while before they fix brd, and i would like to progress BISEX/ RAVEX.

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I'm with ya, man. And I just haven't the heart right now to level other shit so I'm just stuck in limbo at 56 until I decide something.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

I'm with ya, man. And I just haven't the heart right now to level other shit so I'm just stuck in limbo at 56 until I decide something.

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There is no way they'll leave the jobs in this state. How long, and how much of an improvement anyone could guess though.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

What about Summoner and Black Mage? What is your excuse for their existence and DPS? Back in 2.0 we also almost exclusively used 2 PLD parties, the whole debuff to the LB was in response to job stacking. Not to mention fight design has changed to not just be a bunch of up close mob AoE's but RAIDWIDE mechanics that everyone deals with, not just melee. If people are stacking ranged because a fight is so punishing to melee, that is a fight design issue, not a job one.

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Now i'm confused, so if they designed the fights to be less punishing to melee. People would complain. Now that everyone has to deal with mechanics, people complain. There is no pleasing this community as a whole. People will flock to ranged because it is generally the EASIER thing to do. People generally do what is easier that allows them to achieve the same results or better. That's what happened in 2.0 with brd.

Give everyone equal damage, give melee rdps AoE abilities and the ability to punch/peirce/slash a mob from the distance of casting a spell or firing an arrow or bullet (Wouldn't need gap closers at this point). Give all the Rdps the single target dps of a melee. All problems are solved. No one can complain, only way to please people (and then people would still complain).

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Check any DPS content that was close to release (Turn 8 is an example) where raiding DPS is an absolute necessity, in an effort to push these DPS checks people would use multiple monks because of lack of gear (was only obtainable by doing the dungeon with weekly lockouts).

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The groups i saw generally only stacked two monks. IF it makes you feel any better, stacking two monks takes a spot away from all other dps. Not just ranged, this includes drgs and nins.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Do a search for Turn X world first, count the monks, because they're typically stacking at least 2.

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Exactly this. Usually people would bring BRDs to those progression parties, (the only class almost 100% garunteed a spot in ANY party during ARR) kinda hard to survive without songs for TP/MP during progression content. The brds also usually focused on the mechanics moreso to ALLOW the melee dps (the mnks really) to push. There was almost always 2 rdps in those parties, usually one spot was ALWAYS a bard, the other was blm/smn.

It's whatever at this point. Let Rdps match melee dps, then it will be the mdps' turn to complain and ask for buffs. Never ending cycle.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

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Firstly you don't make things easier for one or the other, you balance the fight so it is a challenge ideally equally to both ranged and melee. Again fight issue, not job. Secondly you even state later on that bards need to support, dps, and handle mechanics so melee can push dps, you think that's easier than simply doing your rotation on a mob? God forbid you be forced to hit your combos while we have to maximize our dps because it's naturally lower, support abilities for you, and handle the mechanics, while you simply do a combo. Also in response to bard in 2.1 didn't all they do was change B4B (which was changed for all non-main DRG) and switch our RoD from damage- to acc-? Bard has never been top DPS even in 2.0, the potential has always been skewed how it is now.

Lastly, you keep ignoring my questions about Summoner and Black Mage, they're ranged, do top end damage, why aren't we stacking 3 blm and a brd? Black Mages are RESOURCELESS to boot.

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Originally Posted by Athism

As a BRD main, my heart hurts. I'm at a cross roads, idk if i should level a new dps class or stick with brd. Knowing SE, it will take a while before they fix brd, and i would like to progress BISEX/ RAVEX.

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BISEX? lmao well after shiva extreme....

BRD was awesome in 2.0 for lots of reasons , titan HM was a "pain" , and brd was the perfect job for it since it could move and dps , plus u needed silences in Turn 1-2 , being able to move and dps , silence and songs were "WOAH" plus brd was "ok" dps in 2.0 , and every patch from 2.0 onweard, brd was getting behind in the arms dps race , every dps got some love , i cant remember but im sure blm and smn received some fixes , and drg got some buffs (a bit late ) , war was buffed too (was in dire need of love to be fair).

I'm not familiar with what end game bard/mch dps is atm. How far behind the top dps are they currently? Are they at least above what an off-tank can do?

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Originally Posted by Neyka

I'm not familiar with what end game bard/mch dps is atm. How far behind the top dps are they currently? Are they at least above what an off-tank can do?

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Off tank Warrior can match BRD and MCH and endgame.

To see how painful it is atm, there is a thread comparing some numbers for dps opening's -

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...e-various-jobs

Makes me very sad...

Sustained dps will be better in comparison, still WAR's can match that.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Off tank Warrior can match BRD and MCH and endgame.

To see how painful it is atm, there is a thread comparing some numbers for dps opening's -

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...e-various-jobs

Makes me very sad...

Sustained dps will be better in comparison, still WAR's can match that.

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Well, clearly bards and machinists should do more damage than an off tank. Ideally they should be just slightly behind ranged caster dps.

I wonder how long until we starting seeing the 6 warrior + 2 healer meta.

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Originally Posted by Athism

As a BRD main, my heart hurts. I'm at a cross roads, idk if i should level a new dps class or stick with brd. Knowing SE, it will take a while before they fix brd, and i would like to progress BISEX/ RAVEX.

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The real test for BRD/MCN is Alex Savage, not any of the extreme primals.

The fact is, yes BRD and MCN have issues but Bismark/Ravana EX isn't that difficult to get past with BRD/MCN either. People that I play with are getting past them even before obtaining an average IL of 170. If the group can't even get past this then the fundamental problem is elsewhere, no amount of tweaks to BRD/MCN will get the group past Alex Savage.

So yes you should still proceed with your EX clears now. To when do you want to wait? Go ahead and calculate how long did they took to fix Dragoons.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

snip-

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Very good post by the OP. However, there are always people who will feel threaten that buffing BRD/MCH will dethrone their high and mighty "complicated" dps throne. Hence, the opposition voice but note that usually these oppositions either does not main a Bard or did not even played a Bard before.

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Originally Posted by Neyka

I wonder how long until we starting seeing the 6 warrior + 2 healer meta.

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Soon enough.

http://i.imgur.com/Hlum2XD.jpg

In light of today's MCH nerfs/fixes, I really hope they do something good with buffs for us. In other news congratulations BRD's no more pacify bug!

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Originally Posted by Ephier

In light of today's MCH nerfs/fixes, I really hope they do something good with buffs for us. In other news congratulations BRD's no more pacify bug!

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They fixed the Bloodletter bug? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the patch notes.

SE has come true to form in how they treat the archery class. In FFXI they nerfed ranger from the top DPS down to the absolute bottom from which it never recovered. They've done the same now to FFXIV Brd. They still have some time to tweak it into parity with other DPS classes before they introduce end game raiding - but I really doubt that they will.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

They fixed the Bloodletter bug? I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in the patch notes.

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An issue wherein bards would be temporarily unable to perform actions under certain conditions.

Read young padawan!

I want to point out that there are MCHs parsing about 1050 sustained, which is pretty much what I do as DRG at the moment. I play MCH too though and I agree that while it's incredibly fun it feels a lot less powerful for the effort it takes to DPS optimally.

Kind of a cross post, but my static downed Bis EX for the first time last night. We met all the DPS checks easily, including killing him in the 3rd phase after only 3 "mounts".

We ran with a BRD and MCH, and it was never a struggle. For reference we had PLD/WAR/AST/SCH/DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH

BRD and MCH might be a little under tuned, but don't let it discourage you. Any group not willing to take one honestly needs to take a hard look at themselves as players rather than blaming a class.

P.S: We're working on Rav EX right now, and the parts we're struggling with definitely aren't the DPS checks. Shield and adds die in short order.

I think a legitimate question that just came into my head is if I just use split shot spam, and hit my procs as they come, which does more dps: Gauss barrel on, or Gauss barrel off? Curses being at work. Will test tonight! My question for bards is the same. If you just go through your standard rotation(use your dots for river of blood but nothing else) do you do more damage with or without WM? Try it without the dots as well?

For those who can read JPN
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...45#post3089145
I would expect some MCH changes as well

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

For those who can read JPN
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...45#post3089145
I would expect some MCH changes as well

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Hope* some MCH changes. ;-;

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Originally Posted by seekified

I want to point out that there are MCHs parsing about 1050 sustained, which is pretty much what I do as DRG at the moment. I play MCH too though and I agree that while it's incredibly fun it feels a lot less powerful for the effort it takes to DPS optimally.

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you are literally the only person to say this ever, please show proof and the rotation of how all mch can not suck, especially after today's nerf.

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Originally Posted by seekified

I want to point out that there are MCHs parsing about 1050 sustained, which is pretty much what I do as DRG at the moment. I play MCH too though and I agree that while it's incredibly fun it feels a lot less powerful for the effort it takes to DPS optimally.

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That is food, party, pot, DRG disembowel and pre rapid fire fix. Was no MCH solo doing 1050 without lucky procs and crits before and they definitely not doing it now.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

For those who can read JPN
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...45#post3089145
I would expect some MCH changes as well

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Unfortunately the most I can gather from that whole post using google translate is WM is bad, and something to do with the status quo haha xD

Never been very good at discerning thing from Google Translate, the translation it gives makes as much sense as what I tried to translate in the first place to me -_-

At least it's a Dev post, I'll take that as a good sign.

I would really like one focusing on MCH too though

I'm sure SE is trolling us with the hotfix today, "No more insta cast Gauss for you! We'll make this barely usuable skill even more unuseable before we even talk about balancing."

Great... Thanks SE for fixing this with a balance update -_-

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Originally Posted by HeavensSword

Yamochan gave a good translation of it in the Bard complaint thread.

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Tyvm.

Hmm reading it i hope they don't just carbon copy such it for MCH Gauss.

For some reason it just seems MCH should be 2 stances, a cannonier more "boom boom" BLM type playstyle and then the more mobile BRD, Shammy totem type playstyle for lazy people :P

For balance it would be easy to set the stance before fights and lock it like AST, or keep the cast time so switching mid fight will be done only under extreme circumstances.

Lets BRD be it's mobile self, but pls SE switch it up for MCH.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Unfortunately the most I can gather from that whole post using google translate is WM is bad haha xD

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It indeed only mentions BRD.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Unfortunately the most I can gather from that whole post using google translate is WM is bad, and something to do with the status quo haha xD

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Yamochan gave a good translation of it in the Bard complaint thread.

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Originally Posted by yamochan

wow at least a tiny step up a big big mountain of crap ^^

so here is the what the dev post says basicly:
Wanderer's Minuet:
Development team is aware of the following:
Generally, DPS is larger when not under Minuet.
Bards' specialty of "Ability to attack while moving" is impacted when under Minuet, hard to see benefits of being in Minuet.
Unwieldy to change stances.

Due to the degree to which the above points are felt by the community, especially the first point (Less damage in Minuet), the development team is looking into changes.

They're looking to change the effect (but not increase damage too much), make it easier to switch between stances, and reduce the difficulty and general clunkiness with the current Bard.

Warden's Paean:
Generally treated as hard to use/low value, development team is looking into it.

Bloodletter Bug:
Fixed in hotfix.

Also a bit about waiting for player feedback from Alexander before committing any further changes

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Originally Posted by FreyrPrime

Kind of a cross post, but my static downed Bis EX for the first time last night. We met all the DPS checks easily, including killing him in the 3rd phase after only 3 "mounts".

We ran with a BRD and MCH, and it was never a struggle. For reference we had PLD/WAR/AST/SCH/DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH

BRD and MCH might be a little under tuned, but don't let it discourage you. Any group not willing to take one honestly needs to take a hard look at themselves as players rather than blaming a class.

P.S: We're working on Rav EX right now, and the parts we're struggling with definitely aren't the DPS checks. Shield and adds die in short order.

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Yes, there are some good players out there who are doing their best to make the most of what they have. Those are the rare few. This is not to say that we should buff BRD/MCN to stupid levels of OP'ness to compensate for the lowest common denominator. But some people are forgetting that just because the top few can make it "good enough" doesn't justify it's current state.

i cant wait to see alex savage. Skill ceiling rose so high on other jobs these days im pretty sure alex savage should do some severe hurt to at least non brd dps. It's beyond unrealistic for blms and drgs to achieve dps comparable to dummy dps, always was ofc but now so much more so. I bet if brd receives a small buff and a few tweaks dps figures shouldn't be varying as greatly in a fight worth talking about and not lolextreme primals.

I really laugh when I see groups blaming brd for failing bis ex when brd does probably the most dps on bismarks back if he saves cds. Bismark is such a triviality, it's more a "do u know your rotation and know how to burst" check than dps check. Bis ex has no gate, like how garuda ex gated titan ex, so you are gonna see all types of players in pf...