Estinien (spoilers)

In the ending he gets both eyes and is consumed by Nidhogg, transforming into him. Now would it even be possible to save him from that? Alphinaud mentions that he wants to if you talk him, but I'm not sure.

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Originally Posted by Emerald_Wyvern

In the ending he gets both eyes and is consumed by Nidhogg, transforming into him. Now would it even be possible to save him from that? Alphinaud mentions that he wants to if you talk him, but I'm not sure.

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He mentions that if it were possible to find a way to save Estinien, they would have to look into it and make it happen. As of right now, Estinien is as good as dead. I'm still more irked that Iceheart was actually axed. I was really liking her. :/

The loss of characters is a pretty strong Final Fantasy trope and we don't really know that Iceheart is dead. I mean, she "falls to her death," which is almost always a sign that someone will come back.

As for Estinien, he's definitely as good as gone. It felt a little odd that more people weren't shocked by his absence, though.

I think it's because most people thought Estinien was a jerk, even though he was well within reason while Iceheart basically relied on a false image to for peace.

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Originally Posted by Kauthryn

The loss of characters is a pretty strong Final Fantasy trope and we don't really know that Iceheart is dead. I mean, she "falls to her death," which is almost always a sign that someone will come back.

As for Estinien, he's definitely as good as gone. It felt a little odd that more people weren't shocked by his absence, though.

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She also dispersed into aether, so I think she's gone. (Which is sad because she was my favorite character in HEAVENSWARD)

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Originally Posted by waifugenerator

She also dispersed into aether, so I think she's gone. (Which is sad because she was my favorite character in HEAVENSWARD)

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Remember the thing about souls with the Echo, though. While she probably can't recover her physical body, her soul is eternal in a different way than most mortals. I suspect she'll be able to help Estinien return to his former self, even in her current state.

By bringing Nanamo back so fraking easily, they've kind of turned this into a setting where no major death can be taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Remember the thing about souls with the Echo, though. While she probably can't recover her physical body, her soul is eternal in a different way than most mortals. I suspect she'll be able to help Estinien return to his former self, even in her current state.

By bringing Nanamo back so fraking easily, they've kind of turned this into a setting where no major death can be taken seriously.

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However, that is more believable about Nanamo's "revival" in how it was done(though it was silly), Iceheart's condition is MUCH more complicated than swapping toxins. While she was a plot device, she isn't necessarily one of the "bigger roles" of the story such as the scions and all. So I don't see the group going out their way to get Iceheart if there was even a way. Even if that soul may be eternal or not...It's really not the same as her actually being there. :x

Its ok they killed off the ones I liked the most Haruchefant, Estinien, Ice Heart, and I actually did Like Lahabrea. Granted Ysale as well as the Archbishop and his knights went the way of Louisoix, even if they could and probably can Summon at least Shiva back, would they? The scions aren't in the habit of summoning Primals, granted they were pretty desperate when they tried to Summon the Twelve, to which Louisoix ended the summoning before they manifested as a primal.

Don't think he can be saved, at least with the way things are going. Remember the trailer for Heavensward? It was a huge dragon invasion of Ishgarde.

It's going to get mighty interesting!

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Originally Posted by Gaiussenpai

I think it's because most people thought Estinien was a jerk, even though he was well within reason while Iceheart basically relied on a false image to for peace.

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I haven't gotten through the story completely yet, but considering how Estinien just constantly wants to talk about killing dragons with no regards to working towards peace, something that actually happened, I don't see how Iceheart relied on a false image for peace. I'm so sad that they killed Iceheart and Hauchefant, they're really nice characters.

I meant more of her thinking she was Shiva reborn but had good intentions.

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

While she was a plot device, she isn't necessarily one of the "bigger roles" of the story such as the scions and all.

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Honestly, I feel she's had a bigger role than Nanamo. When Nanamo was poisoned I only cared at all because she was a head of state and some things just aren't to be done. I had no personal connection to her at all. It may be different for people who started in Ul'dah, but for me there was no sense of personal loss. By comparison, it's been 4 days and I'm still kinda sad about Haurchefant, and my feelings about Ysayle are tempered by the knowledge that she has the Echo and "died" off-screen, so there's a decent amount of wiggle room for her to come back. Estinien was starting to grow on me, so while I don't feel his loss as keenly, I'm still interested in getting him back, which I suspect will involve separating his essence from Nidhogg's somehow.

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Originally Posted by Kauthryn

As for Estinien, he's definitely as good as gone. It felt a little odd that more people weren't shocked by his absence, though.

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According to the dragoon job storyline Estinien was never known to be around Ishgard from the outset. He felt the stir of nidhogg and, in thinking that nidhogg would raze ishgard to the ground, stole the eye and left ishgard, never to be found. His liaison with aymeric was probably private and confidential.

Also, being the azure dragoon seemed to have given him a lot of autonomy and since no1 could 'control' him, I dont think anyone really care if he was around or not.

Finally, the dragoons are basically dragon killers and have minimal political affiliation with the governing bodies of ishgard so I dont think their endeavres/misendeavres really meant anything to anyone apart from themselves.

I'm sort of hoping that he's a reference to Kain Highwind to the point where after being consumed by Nidhogg's influence he'll be rescued and rejoin the Warrior of Light. I'll be very sad if he's permanently gone - though it does, unfortunately, seem likely.

I still wonder how niddhog managed to come back with his old body, did he primaled himself ?

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Originally Posted by lololink

I still wonder how niddhog managed to come back with his old body, did he primaled himself ?

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Possible explanation is the blood of ratatoskr that allows all of the original offsprings of the knights to turn into dragons with dragon blood as catalysts - in his case he had more than mere blood but the very essence of nidhogg- the only question of the new wyrm's consciousness is shared amongst them two, or belongs to nidhogg alone

I haven't beaten 3.0 yet but I would have wagered that he would get both eyes and be overcome. It's forshadowed that he's a jerk from he start, so not much of a plot twist. Since references have been made to Omega at the end of 2.0, it'll be interesting if Shinryu makes an appearance as the dragon's answer to Primals, similar to what Ultima was to the Garleans.

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Finally, the dragoons are basically dragon killers and have minimal political affiliation with the governing bodies of ishgard so I dont think their endeavres/misendeavres really meant anything to anyone apart from themselves.

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Aren't they the highest order of knights in Ishgard? They hang out at the Congregation and that's basically the HQ for Ishgard's knights, and knights are the officers of the Ishagardian military, likely with the Dragoons being sort of the 'special forces', as kind of inferred by the DRG 3.0 storylines. Although in that story you see a that even Drachen Armor-clad DRGs armed with Gae Bolgs get their asses handed to them by some fodder dragons, which is odd, because I assumed Drachen Armor+Gae Bolg were only given to the most elite dragoons, but you see Gae Bolgs and Drachen Armor worn by dozens of Dragoons in the story, and they get rocked by level 50 Avis and Dragonflies....lol

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Originally Posted by Gaiussenpai

I think it's because most people thought Estinien was a jerk, even though he was well within reason while Iceheart basically relied on a false image to for peace.

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I hated him, for certain. I didn't like him in the Dragoon quests, and really wasn't on board with how big a character he is in HW. What would have made him a good tragic character was to see him fall to his death with Nidhogg, but of COURSE he jumps away to safety because he's just THAT GOOD. And Nidhogg somehow, completely blind, managed to stay in range of the tower we were on. Because reasons.

Not going to shed a tear over it. Most of the story has me just shaking my head, actually.

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Originally Posted by Shuon

According to the dragoon job...

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This more or less ignores that Aymeric looked to Estinien specifically for support against the Archbishop, to which Estinien said he would offer his support even if dragoons normally remained separate from internal politics. He's often spoken of highly by most people that you encounter with him, because he seems to represent Ishgardian dominance over dragons. Saying that a group dedicated to protecting Ishgard from dragons has little importance is mind boggling given the atmosphere, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Not going to shed a tear over it. Most of the story has me just shaking my head, actually.

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But he is that good? The entire mythos of the Azure Dragoon is that he is the definitive point of victory against dragons. Estinien is a jerk because he's talented and I know players generally hate when they don't get to "show up" the tough guy, but he was a consistent character that didn't rely on anything that the story didn't explain and express in detail. I found him irksome during the job quests too, but SE did an amazing job fleshing him out and he even maintained the ability to grow and learn as you do the quest. What is there to hate? Your complaints seem oddly personal as if his existence denied your character's.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I hated him, for certain. I didn't like him in the Dragoon quests, and really wasn't on board with how big a character he is in HW. What would have made him a good tragic character was to see him fall to his death with Nidhogg, but of COURSE he jumps away to safety because he's just THAT GOOD.

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I disagree with the value you (don't) place on individual human life. That is all.

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Originally Posted by Kauthryn

What is there to hate?

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Y'shtola: "Be careful with that dragon eye, it's a seething, malevolent ball-of-hatred that wants to consume your soul."
Estinien: "Pfffft, as if. I'm totally stronger than it and I'll destroy it before it could ever be a problem."
Seething, malevolent ball-of-hatred: "o rly?"

He's obnoxiously cocky and over-confident, especially given that Nidhogg already made a puppet of him once (at least for anyone who's leveled DRG).

My reaction at the end of the story was less one of "Oh no, Estinien!" and more one of "Ugh. Really? You had one job, Estinien. One job!"

I always had a feeling he was going to get screwed over by the eye. I was like "no way would they keep warning him and the player how dangerous the eye is without something happening". Lo and behold....

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Originally Posted by Ibi

He's obnoxiously cocky and over-confident, especially given that Nidhogg already made a puppet of him once (at least for anyone who's leveled DRG).

My reaction at the end of the story was less one of "Oh no, Estinien!" and more one of "Ugh. Really? You had one job, Estinien. One job!"

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Did you literally miss the part where he actually DID suppress the eye, several times, when he needed to? He had one job and he believed it was done when Nidhogg was dead. THAT is why it overcame him, not because he was too weak but because as Nidhogg said, he let his guard down. Yes, he's cocky and arrogant but that's because he's really good at what he does. It's almost like only players feel they can be cocky and arrogant or something? Estinien had such good development and people get upset over it.

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Originally Posted by Kauthryn

Did you literally miss the part where he actually DID suppress the eye, several times, when he needed to? He had one job and he believed it was done when Nidhogg was dead.

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Given that he's failed to suppress before and considering how serious the consequences for failing are, most people in his position probably wouldn't be so certain that there's no way it could possibly happen again.

Besides, Nidhogg was already dead for some time when Y'shtola gave him the warning that the eye was still attempting to take control of him. If he thought the job was done when he killed Nidhogg, at the very least that should have told him otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Kauthryn

It's almost like only players feel they can be cocky and arrogant or something?

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When in the MSQ is the Warrior of Light ever cocky or arrogant?

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Originally Posted by Kauthryn

Estinien had such good development and people get upset over it.

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It's your opinion that he had good development. Other people have a different opinion, which is why they get upset.

Estinien never really gave me the impression that he was overly arrogant - he was simply focused on protecting his people and homeland above all else whilst wrestling against the influence of Nidhogg. In many ways he had far more pressure on his shoulders than the Warrior of Light did so it's a testament to his competence that he survived for as long as he did.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Y'shtola: "Be careful with that dragon eye, it's a seething, malevolent ball-of-hatred that wants to consume your soul."
Estinien: "Pfffft, as if. I'm totally stronger than it and I'll destroy it before it could ever be a problem."
Seething, malevolent ball-of-hatred: "o rly?"

He's obnoxiously cocky and over-confident, especially given that Nidhogg already made a puppet of him once (at least for anyone who's leveled DRG).

My reaction at the end of the story was less one of "Oh no, Estinien!" and more one of "Ugh. Really? You had one job, Estinien. One job!"

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He thought the job done if not almost. Estinien is strong, both physically and mentally. He has to to resist the Eye for that long. I really didn't expect that he let his guard down that much, or that nidhogg only needed a single moment to attack.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Given that he's failed to suppress before and considering how serious the consequences for failing are, most people in his position probably wouldn't be so certain that there's no way it could possibly happen again.

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1. What do you believe his "job" was, exactly? The Azure Dragoon is supposed to defend against the Dravanian Horde, and as far as we knew that threat had ended with Nidhogg's fall. The death of Iceheart brought the heretic threat to an end as well, so yes his job did seem to be over for him. If nothing else, he could use a breather? By his own statement, it seemed that everything was done.

2. I said they, as in the person playing.

3. My opinion is based on his development as a character, yes. It doesn't require me to exclude facts to come to a pretty bogus realization.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Estinien never really gave me the impression that he was overly arrogant - he was simply focused on protecting his people and homeland above all else whilst wrestling against the influence of Nidhogg. In many ways he had far more pressure on his shoulders than the Warrior of Light did so it's a testament to his competence that he survived for as long as he did.

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That's why I liked him. I mean he certainly could be abrasive, brusque, and belittling but he came from a position of intending to protect his people. Idealism mattered little to him, yet despite that in the end he did grow to see his ways were wrong. I mean, "Fare thee well, my lady," was something I'd never have expected him to say at the start.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I disagree with the value you (don't) place on individual human life. That is all.

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this is just a game dude

I didn't like him at first, but he grew on me. He was right more often then Iceheart was, as well. There wasn't a peaceful solution to the war while N lived.

He grew on me and over time Iceheart and Estinien grew on each other. But quite frankly I am not surprised Estinien didn't survive the main scenario. Everyone and their grandmother mentioned several times that all the rage inside Estinien will doom him. It did. Granted, he might come back when we finally kill Nidhogg for good, but whatever happened to him, he had it comming.

I'll be honest, I would have been surprised if he survived considering every other major character was killed right in front of us.

No body, no death. Worked well enough for Y'shtola.

I was kinda hoping for Iceheart and him to hook up... sooth the dragoon, as it where. Oh well.

Too much characters on screen, they had to kill all the new ones for the come back of the scions.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

He grew on me and over time Iceheart and Estinien grew on each other. But quite frankly I am not surprised Estinien didn't survive the main scenario. Everyone and their grandmother mentioned several times that all the rage inside Estinien will doom him. It did. Granted, he might come back when we finally kill Nidhogg for good, but whatever happened to him, he had it comming.

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Why did he have it coming?

Everyone gonna pull a nanamo rez.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Everyone gonna pull a nanamo rez.

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Estinien could totally be saved, Iceheart would be harder, she could still come back thanks to the echo or be brought back in some way but it's not sure.

Unfortunately the best character ever won't be back T-T.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Everyone gonna pull a nanamo rez.

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While it was touching to see Raubahn's relief, am I alone in feeling that the complete lack of deaths so far is a little... underwhelming? By the end of 2.55 I was invested because of a lot of reasons, but Y'shtola is alive, Nanamo is alive, and Yda and Pap are probably alive. I doubt Thancred or Minfilia are dead so we lost... Noraxia, Wilfred, and He Who Shall Never Be Forgotten?