DPS
1.) War
2.) Drk
3.) Pld
How well they tank
1.) Pld
2.) Drk
3.) War
My prediction anyways
Tank DPS Ranking prediction.
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06-20-2015, 10:31 AMSolduiosTank DPS Ranking prediction.
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06-20-2015, 10:48 AMMaero
Have just started Dk but in terms of dps from what i have seen it can possibly take #1 spot (just my opinion)
How well they tank i would say
PLD
WAR
DK -
06-20-2015, 01:05 PMKalma51
@Maero - How would PLD ever top War / Drk is beyond me.
I'm pretty sure that War / Drk will roughly tie each other, with PLD bringing up the rear. -
06-20-2015, 10:22 PMSirTaint
DPS as a MT PLD is bringing up the rear for sure. DPS as an OT is going to be really close. Goring blade combo is 920 pot and sword oath is still the biggest game changer.
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06-21-2015, 12:17 AMRbstr
Yeah, OT dps is going to be close or PLD on top again, but by a larger margin. They got a ton of potency, but the war's 5% buff, crit bonus and abandon attack are pretty hefty.
MT might even end up being DRK. Less damage penalty, 15% increase most all the time, and high potency. -
06-21-2015, 12:28 AMXenosan
I get the feeling DRK would be top DPS MT. I suppose dropping Grit for Blood Weapon and other rotation-esque factors need to be decided first.
But the amount and frequency of oGCD attacks, with Low Blow having a Bloodletter like CD reducer gives an itch. DRK DPS is highest when taking hits. -
06-21-2015, 05:21 AMwonka11
Thinking PLD is somehow better than Warrior, either because of their stances (they're statistically unimportant, Defiance and Shield Oath break near par), or that Paladin has Bulwark as an additional CD (since their block is now matched by warrior's parry ability), is ridiculous.
IB is on demand, 20% damage reduction, so instead of having to blow a CD to get a 30% dmg reduction (on a single large hit, maybe two if the duration lasts long enough), warriors have it everytime whenever a big hit is coming, which we all know FFXIV tanking rotations revolved around big, predictable, mitigatable hits. What does that mean? It means good warriors have mitigation when they need it, where they need it, and aren't hampered by the limitations of a long cool down on a blanket duration defensive CD.
This whole garbage about tanking orders and tiers, WAR being the OT, PLD being the MT, needs to go. Its antiquated BS from release that died when 2.1 was released.
Bunch of green, amateur tanks. -
06-21-2015, 05:52 AMHundred
PLD seems like it would be higher?
Goring blade and Royal Authority are rather high potency....and don't require a specific Oath
Fell Cleave requires 5 stacks...
If I recall PLD and WAR Dps wasn't really far apart -
06-21-2015, 06:14 AMSirTaint
In tanking stance (defiance/shield oath) WAR was a clear winner and will continue to be so. (PLD vs WAR only)
WAR has unchained and Innerbeast which ignore the penalty as well as Maim which negates a good chunk of is. (damage up 20%)
PLD has nothing to counter Shield oath.
The old order for DPS was.
PLD SwO MT + WAR OT
WAR MT + PLD SwO OT
WAR + WAR
PLD SwO + PLD SwO
WAR Def + PLD SwO OT
WAR def + WAR OT
PLD ShO + WAR OT
PLD ShO + PLD OT -
06-21-2015, 06:34 PMrawker
Fight or Flight, in Shield Oath, is a net gain of 4%.
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06-22-2015, 03:53 AMMarxamyeah but x2 Fell Cleave under berserk, deliverance, internal release, maim and maybe the new drg party buff is 1000 potency in just 5 seconds not including slashing debuff. War will still be the preferred ot due to having storms eye/path and has tp regen now, but until we get some numbers at optimal gear we won't know for sure. That being said I'm constantly crit-ing for 1.5k as drk with darkside, dark arts, souleater and i'm nly 52 atm.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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06-22-2015, 10:09 PMReynhartYou take Raw Intuition into account, but you forget Sheltron. Cause 30s cooldown allows you to pop it on every big hit, above one of the big cooldowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonka11
Biased...maybe ?
I haven't touched my PLD during EA, but when I look on Shield_Oath, it says it reduces damage taken by 25%. Is it a "stealth" upgrade or a typo ?
If the above link is true, and depending on how damage mutlipiers are applied, Flight Or Fight, at best, negates Shield Oath for 20s. It's basically a quicker Unchained, now, yet WAR still have Berserk on top of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rawker
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06-22-2015, 10:20 PMstoxastic
WAR dps is so OP now. Was in lvl55 dungeon and tanked miniboss in deliverance and did 600+ dps. Deliverance and Fell Cleave are just so good.
Shield Oath is 20% still I believe. I think it's a typo. 25% would be too good. -
06-22-2015, 10:26 PMReynhart
Now that PLD has some really powerful WS and WAR gained better mitigation and a big heal, I can't wait for crushing numbers with a WAR MT + PLD OT setup :D
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06-22-2015, 10:59 PMUltimatecalibur
One thing that is very easy to miss is that Warriors lost MT damage capability: Wrath stacks no longer grants crit rate+, they grant parry rate+ now. This very easy to miss because Defiance's tool tip has not been change, but the tool tip on the Wrath buff has.
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06-22-2015, 11:49 PMReynhart
I don't know the damage output of DRK as a MT yet, but with Berserk and several means of not keeping the damage penalty WAR clearly surpass PLD when in tank stance.
As an OT, it's...more complicated, now. -
06-22-2015, 11:59 PMLaunchedThat's still only a tiny nerf (though an unnecessary one). WAR's MT damage came from being able to ignore Defiance's damage penalty with Unchained, and 300 potency Inner Beasts that also ignored it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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06-23-2015, 12:33 AMIpkonfig
DRK is a DPS machine.
The attacks added to PLD were just so they could keep up with DRK/WAR. Goring Blade's 540 potency gated by a 3 chain combo, and DRK's Scourge, 500 potency stand alone ability. Royal Authority brings the RoH combo up to 237.5 average potency. Dark Arts/Souleatter is 266 and if you want to maintain MP and cut CDs out of the rotation Delirium into DA/Souleatter spam averages to 246.
I'm curious about all out WAR Vs. DRK, but I don't think PLD will be in the equation, PLD has some sexy defensive utility now though in Clemency and Divine Veil. -
06-23-2015, 12:56 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Ipkonfig
Don't forget Sword oath (the biggest DPS increase of any JA besides maybe cleric stance)
I haven't played DRK yet but what is their equivalent to FoF/Zerk?
I wish the grind to 60 wasn't so lengthy. I am looking forward to parsing all 3 jobs in 30sec,3,5 and 7 minute intervals for science. -
06-23-2015, 01:05 AMZodiacSoldierIf you read what Maero said he said PLD tops WAR/DRK in terms of TANKING, which I agree with, their mitigation is incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalma51
He said that DRK might outrank WAR in terms of DPS, and he didnt even mention PLD in terms of DPS rankings for obvious reason.
But overall I agree with the OP for the rankings.
DPS
1.) War
2.) Drk
3.) Pld
Tanking ability
1.) Pld
2.) Drk
3.) War -
06-23-2015, 01:22 AMIpkonfig
FoF is decent, 30% damage for 30s on 90s CD, 33% uptime for an overall damage increase for around 10%.
I guess DRK's "Sword Oath" is Dark Side, 15% constant damage increase, which can be up while in Grit. They also have Blood Weapon which is 10% attack speed and MP/hit for 15s on a 40s CD. Makes TP sustain rough.
Zerk is an amazing DPS cooldown if you have a good healer who can dispel the pacify right as it lands, but on average all of WARs potencies are really low, all three combos for them average at or just below 200, Fracture for them is only 300 potency, and the only OGCD they get is Brutal Swing for 50 potency every 20s. The saving grace is Maim + Deliverance giving them 25% more damage and the 2% crit per stack of Abandon and Fel Cleave hitting like a truck.
Another thing to consider is that DRK has 5 OGCD attacks to factor in.
Low Blow - 100 potency
Salted Earth - 525 potency
Dark Passenger - 150 potency
Plunge - 200 potency
Carve and Spit - 450 potency with DA
DRK will have fantastic tanking DPS as well, Dark Side running while in Grit helps stop the DPS loss on the stance, and Low Blow has a 30% chance to reset on Parry. Dark Dance has a 33% uptime... SO MANY KICKS! -
06-23-2015, 04:28 AMXenosan
From what I can tell, Attack potency is not factored into Blood Weapon, every attack (GCD or oGCD) replenishes the same amount of MP. So Low Blow, Plunge, Carve & Split, Reprisal.. want to use all these during Blood Weapon preferably, as that's properly 'min/maxing' that CD. The better the MP replenishment, the more Dark Arts buff'd Souleater, Dark Passenger, and Carve & Split that can be dished out.
Like DPS using BfB, also consider 'holding' on popping BloodWeapon until the GCD wheel is at 75% or higher. This may squeeze an extra GCD into the buff's duration. -
06-23-2015, 05:47 AMRBlackshield
FoF is on a 90s cooldown, not a 180s cooldown.
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06-23-2015, 02:32 PMKaedanDRK have two direct damage buffing skills: Darkside. It's a 15% increase to all damage, but drains MP slowly while active. We also have Dark Arts, which significantly increases the potency of some skills, but it costs a lot of MP to use, so you have to combine it with either Blood Price (tanking with Grit) or Blood Weapon (no Grit). Though speaking of Blood Weapon, that does increase attack speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
A competent DRK can keep Darkside up at all times, so we constantly get a 15% damage bonus. -
06-23-2015, 03:10 PMDoc_CarmichaelShould I try Drk?
I have lvl 53 bard and loving it, but think if dark is a more dps tank I'll give it a go!
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06-23-2015, 05:44 PMBlueThunderPretty much what Kaedan told you, DRKs have no buff that would increase their overall damage for X seconds. Instead, we can use MP on keeping Darkside up (15% more damage) and need to use Dark Arts (Potency increase OR enhanced Defensive Cooldown) for the next skill that uses its effect, albeit Dark Arts consumes 1/4 of your maximum MP, so its quite difficult to pop that all the time unless A) Constantly attacked by a pack of mobs and Blood Price is up, or B) Using Blood Weapon when OTing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
The thing is, Dark Knight has even more oGCD offensive skills than PLD or WAR, thou 1 of them consumes MP too (damn you, Dark Passenger), so half of your damage as a DRK comes from all those skills and the correct use of Dark Arts. -
06-23-2015, 05:45 PMBlueThunderYeah, Blood Weapon increases your attack speed by more than it seems. But it just makes you drain your TP like crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaedan
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06-24-2015, 04:22 AMXyphon
So far I've leveled up DRK to 59, and have been full str distribution the entire time (in full vit gear I'm still at about 13k+ health without food). Dark arts + souleater has crit several times for 1.6k on many boss fights; with grit enabled (without crit its hitting for like 1.1-1.2k). Including Ravana. I did though see a screen shot of a fell cleave for like 3.5k though lol. Once we find the comfortable HP level for end game, we'll be able to gauge more in terms of tank dps rankings.
After I get drk to 60 I plan to either take pld or war to 60 next for comparison. So far I've also haven't had any issues maintaining darkside the entire dungeon/raid, especially after you get soul survivor (great for adds). Looks like they fixed the tooltip for it after maint last night as well, woot.
If you ever get into a situation where you see your mp going dry, you can always pop a mana pot for emergencies to prevent it reaching zero. My rotations seem to be a tad different than most people, and I nearly always have a substantial amount of tp. I weave the enmity rotation every other rotation, so I can keep full mp. That being said, I'm still addicted to using fracture from when I played pld. I feel scourge+fracture+salted earth is just insane @_@. -
06-24-2015, 05:33 AMwonka11Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Oh look, you and everyone else in this thread was wrong. Imagine that. Not the first time I've been right, not the last time, and certainly not among a few.
Warrior dps is very high at the moment. Their survivability is just as good as Paladin, their Parry Buff is FAR superior than Sheltron.
Hey, you heard it here first, and you'll hear it here last. I was right. -
06-24-2015, 05:59 AMMythToken
1. War
2. War
3. War
in that order -
06-24-2015, 06:09 AMTilaParry is also a really crappy damage mitigator. Why do people treat it like its a big deal? Pretty much a poor mans shield.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonka11
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06-24-2015, 08:34 AMSleigh
From what I'm seeing in endgame so far, but by NO MEANS anything too concrete:
MT DPS in tank stance: WAR > DRK > PLD
OT DPS: WAR > IDK, I've seen disturbing numbers so far. 950 at 3:30, which is too close to DPS, and they have infinite TP ...
Survivability wise against physical things (not counting debuffs the tanks apply): PLD > WAR > DRK
Survivability against lots of magic: DRK > WAR/PLD
Survivability overall with constant tank busters (like T5): WAR > PLD > DRK
Survivability with far apart tank busters: PLD > DRK/WAR
Survivability by just existing and doing combos: PLD > WAR > DRK (Sorry, IB being used constantly > HP drain IMO)
Debuff importance: WAR >>> PLD >>> DRK (unless no MNK party and then it's below WAR, above PLD)
Combos of tanks and what general survivability I speculate the MT of the pair would have (based on CDs + debuffs each tank brings):
PLD MT + WAR OT > DRK MT + WAR OT > WAR MT + PLD OT > PLD MT + DRK OT > DRK MT + PLD OT > WAR MT + DRK OT (aka probably the worst survivability I think you can get unless you stack the same tank in a comp, it's literally just having a WAR solo)
Right now, if I had to speculate, and obviously I am speculating right now, DRK MT + WAR OT and PLD + WAR in either role of OT/MT are the safest bets for comps. I would not bring DRK as OT if it can be helped, nor would I bring DRK MT + PLD OT because you lose that sweet, sweet Path/Eye. -
06-24-2015, 10:18 AMReynhartWow, I've never seen such a decisive argument : "You're wrong because I'm right".Quote:
Originally Posted by wonka11
Again, live in you dream, buddy. -
06-24-2015, 03:09 PMFaytteThis. Parry is not that good anymore. Its a flat 20% reduction on things that can be parried. Sheltron works off a shields block strength, which with kite shields even now is about 30% and will increase as the expansion goes. This is all that matters for tank busters, and its 30 second cd means it can be up for EVERY TANK BUSTER.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
You need to understand how critical that is, basically paladins just got a 30% damage reducer for every tank buster given they all (save akh morn) -
06-24-2015, 03:23 PMReynhartAh, yes, Akh Morn...Isn't that the move where PLD need to cover WAR just after they hit a bunch of them with holmgang to not die by the following auto-attack...whereas PLD will eat them like cornflakes with 0 damage ? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Faytte
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06-24-2015, 04:07 PMReynhartOk, you'll probably ignore that post, but whatever, here's where you're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonka11
Mitigation skills need to be compared either by cooldown or duration. Like you said yourself :
So, basically, duration is not a big problem there.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonka11
So, cooldown ? Raw Intuition...90s, Sheltron...30s. Is it basic enough math ?
Well, in fact, Sheltron is not the PLD equivalent of Raw Intuition. It's the equivalent of Inner Beast, as they're both "pop it at will to reduce one hit".
Bulwark is the equivalent of WAR Raw Intuition. So, is Raw Intuition better ? Yes, on paper, it is. Shorter cooldown, and more reliable. During fights ? Well, it stills have shorter cooldown, but in the whole rotation, both tank can have their coolwdowns when they're needed. As for the "reliable" part, Raw Intuition is also better, but the difference is slight at best, since Bulwark is added upon the natural blocking rate, which is already decent, depending on the shield.
For the mitigation part, although, recent Parry test puts it at a flat 20%, exactly like Inner Beast, whereas block scales with shield and level, but stays consistenly higher than that.
So, now that Inner Beast and Raw Intuition got their equivalent, what do we have ?
Defiance for Shield Oath : So close that it doesn't really matter.
Vengeance for Rampart and/or Sentinel. Vengeance is exactly mid-way through both with better mitigation but longer cooldwon than Rampart and lesser mitigation but shorter cooldown than Sentinel.
For once, let's look at "average" mitigation.
Vengeance : (30/180)*30% is 3.75%
Rampart : (20/90)*20% is 4.44%
So, on average, Rempart is better.
Then, you have Thrill Of Battle. It gives you 20% more HP whereas Sentinel reduces damage by 40%. In terms of eHP, thats 120% against 166% (Since they both have the same eHP when comparing Defiance and Shield Oath)
As for Halloweg Ground vs Holmgang : Hallowed Ground negates all incoming damage, meaning that healers don't need to do anything for the duration and doesn't stress them once the cooldown ends. Whereas Holmgang makes you die in one hit once its down.
Holmgang as a much shorter cooldown, but, for the moment, there's no fight that "requires" several Hallowed Ground of Holmgang to makes it really matter. -
06-24-2015, 04:35 PMBrian_You know why every tank that knew what they were doing dropped all parry rating from their gear? Because parry sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonka11
The tank damage that matters in this game comes in bursts. You can't rely on a low% parry to mitigate those bursts. You need guaranteed mitigation. And, healers don't heal reactively. They heal proactively. They are healing you for the same amount regardless of if you parry or not. If you rely on parry to save you, you're doing it wrong.
So you're comparing something that is near worthless to something that is ideal for the game's encounter design. -
06-24-2015, 04:43 PMFaytte
Paladins are the mitigation kings. Warriors are not close (and in fact, Drk's are even further behind).
And while a warriors dps when OT in deliverance -is- very impressive, if you are mting you are dropping out of vengeance to do that (which when ytou go back in, does not auto heal you for the extra health, you basically dealt that damage to yourself the healers need to top back off) and wasted mitigation from IB.
Royal authority (340 potency attack we can spam every 3rd gcd) and Goring Blade combined damage is quite spectacular. Fracture (with war trait) ends up being 270-300 potency ( server dot ticks). Goring Blade is 20 tp cheaper and is 500-540. Yeah you read that right--over 24 seconds, it hits as hard as a fell cleave does (not taking in mind damage amplifying buffs, but we are also talking about a COMBO power vs something that takes 8 GCDS to charge up).
Paladin burst will never touch a war, but sustain isnt as different as you might expect. -
06-24-2015, 06:38 PMLaunchedQuote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Parry as a STAT is worthless because it's complete RNG, just like block. Parry on Raw Intuition is GUARANTEED, meaning it's a physical-only Rampart. There's a huge difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tila
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06-24-2015, 07:30 PMJandor
1. Dark Knight
2. Paladin
3. Warrior
I base my rankings on how Warriors seem to have taken a level in loud obnoxious boasting since the expansion, they were always much more vocal about how super duper fantastic they are but recently it's got to the point where it's suspicious. Like they're overcompensating for something...