Red Mage

Red Mage should wield a sword and be a debuffer applying negative status effects that weaken enemies increasing the parties DPS.

Except that there is no Red Mage in FFXIV last time I checked. Did they implement it so suddenly or is it just one of your wild speculation threads again?
I bet it's the latter.
Oh and I don't think pure debuffer would work that well in FFXIV. If they ever get implemented, as you propose, they will at best function as a debuffer/DPS hybrid. So they would act as a melee bard with debuffs instead of buffs. I think people would still choose a bard over a red mage then (except if their debuffs would be too broken).

Red Mage will compete with Melee when implemented since they use a sword and cast enspells. As a Melee DPS/Debuffer with the current meta they will have around 95% of the max damage potential of the Monk. So they will compete with the Monk, Ninja and Dragoon as oppose to the Bard.

Actually I was hoping that red mages could stand back and cast refresh on the real jobs like they are suppose to do and provide the delicious cross job ability magic X.

I actually made a red mage concept a while back. I made mine a tank, but I helped adjust another persons concept into a viable DPS option, with a pseudo astral fire umbral ice mechanic

Here is the link to my idea for red mage, as well as dancer, salve-maker, and geomancer http://www.tinyurl.com/ff14arrjobs

And here is the link to sokeone elses concept that I tweeked, with his permission, into a dps version of red mage.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pt%21%29/page2

Here's mine. Its a DPS with support like a BRD, so think low weapon damage rating to keep its damage a bit subpar. It has access to couple of Cures, and they should be decently effective due to traits. It can Refresh and Phalanx single target, and provide a few other short term boosts to the whole party like damage +5-10%, mild forms of haste, regen, regain, and Aura (increases how fast the limit break guage fills). These effects tend on the weak side so as not to one-up BRD (they last for 15s, and have 60s cooldown). It would mostly do combos that are a mix of melee and spells. One element is single target (thunder), one is mostly aoe (fire), and its 3rd element (ice) has a skill where the RDM can backline and let a conjured blade continue his auto-attacking and deliver certain melee range moves for him (his own auto-attack is disabled with the conjured ice blade out). So if he wants he can stand back from a fight and do support casting and nukes, although its slightly lower damage to do so than it is to use the other element combos. A jack of all trades, for sure, and playing effectively calls for different playstyles for different situations. It doesn't have a whole lot to dps check, as in offensive cooldowns- doublecast, and chainspell are its best moves- but it can help the rest of the party to do so.

I made it sort of like a THM/BLM where casting certain spells gives it Astral/Umbral (but at a lower tier {max 2}), and 3 Enspell buffs that raise melee damage and provide an on-hit debuff or a self-buff for the RDM depending on element. It has some enfeebles too. The enspell is kind of like WAR's wrath. You get it in stacks by using certain skills/spells and can spend them for off-GCD attacks or party buffs.


Limit Break: Unique tier III (my inclination is to make it be a party-wide buff that does all 3 Aetheric Burst effects at once), healing tier I & II like BRD. Ultimately whatever SE does with BRD's level III, RDM's would be similar but different animation.

Cross class skills: RDM may set additional skills from CNJ and THM: Surecast, Swiftcast, Cleric's Stance (remove if it can be abused), Blizzard II, Aero, Cure, Protect, Raise, Stoneskin. At level 60 they pick 6. There could be more possibilities from level 51-60 skills.


Summary of effects:

Healing: Cure I & II equivalents, Stoneskin, Protect, Combat Raise

Debuffs: Damage penalty, Damage vulnerability, Pacification, Paralyze, Blind, Slow, Heavy, Bind (most of these are attached to an attack skill or spell)

DOTs: Aero, Poison

AOE Party buffs: Aura with weak refresh, Temper with weak regen, Haste with weak regain

Single target party buffs: Phalanx (reduces damage taken), Refresh

Personal buffs: Spell Blade damage bonus, Temper, Fast Cast, Enhanced combat movement, Skill Speed Boost, Doublecast, Chainspell, Astral Fire, Umbral Ice

Defenses: Phalanx, Stoneskin, Parry boost, Runic Blade (absorb magic damage and convert to mp), Riposte (successful parries result in 0 damage taken & counterattack)




Skill List:

1 Quick Cut
120 potency, 70 TP
Spell blade damage bonus applies.

2 Poison
Potency 50, Cast time 2.5s, single target ranged
Duration 21 seconds.
Damage over time potency 30

4 Attaque Au Fer (Attack the Steel/Blade)
110 potency, 80 TP
Inflicts Damage Penalty 10% for 10s.
Spell blade damage bonus applies.

6 En Garde (On Guard)
Instant.
Skill Speed and Parry +10% for 20 seconds
Recast 80 seconds.
Boosted to 20% by trait

8 Frost
170 potency, cast time 2.5s, single target ranged
Creates one stack of Spell Blade: Ice. Cancels Spell blade Fire/Lightning.
Inflicts Heavy.

10 Prise de Fer (Take the Steel/Blade)
Potency 140, 80 TP
Inflicts Pacification 4s.
Spell blade damage bonus applies.
Combo Action: Attaque Au Fer
Combo Bonus: Pacify Duration 6s

12 Sleep
Same as THM spell w/o trait

15 Conversion
Instant.
Recast 5s.
Next action that produces a Spell Blade stack converts the current stacks to that element. Also renews current spell blade's duration.

18 Shock
Potency 150, cast time 2.5s, single target ranged
Creates one stack of Spell Blade: Thunder. Cancels Spell blade Fire/Ice.
Combo Action: Shock Blade
Combo Bonus: Potency 220

22 Raise
Same as CNJ spell w/o trait

26 Burn
Potency 110, cast time 2.5s. Circular AOE.
Creates one stack of Spell Blade: Fire. Cancels Spell blade Ice/Lightning.
Astral Fire damage bonus applies.
Combo Action: Red Lotus Blade
Combo Bonus: Potency 140
(Basically Fire II)

30 Riposte
Potency 150, instant, duration 20s
recast 90s
Spell Blade damage bonus applies.
Successful parries result in taking 0 damage and reflecting damage on the attacker at 150 potency..


30 Frost Blade
Instant, but costs mp like a spell
Conjures a Blade of Ice that does auto-attacks and sword skills for the Red Mage so that he may stay at range.
Caster’s auto-attack is disabled, but he still can Parry.
Creates one stack of Spell Blade: Ice. Cancels Spell blade Fire/Lightning.
Cancelled if caster loses Spell Blade: Ice.
Spell Blade: Ice damage bonus applies to the Frost Blade’s attacks.

34 Heal
Cast time 2.5s
Potency 450.
Basically Cure II.

35 Red Lotus Blade
Potency 110, TP 110, cone AOE.
Spell Blade Fire damage bonus applies.
Creates one spell blade: Fire stack. Cancels Spell blade Lightning/Ice.
Combo Action: Quick Cut
Combo Bonus: Potency 130
Combo Bonus: Inflicts magic damage vulnerability +5% for 10s.

38 Aetheric Discharge
Instant/Off GCD.
Consumes one Spell Blade stack (trait eventually makes it free)
Effect varies by Spell Blade element.
Spell Blade damage bonus applies.
Astral Fire damage bonus applies to Detonate.
Recast 10s.

Ice: Deep Freeze. Single target, ranged. Potency 240. Causes Bind, duration 6s.

Fire: Detonate. 130 potency circle AOE centered on player.

Thunder: Bolt. Ranged, single target damage over time 50 Potency for 9s, ranged.



40 Thunderstrike
Potency 120, 70 TP
Creates one spell blade: Thunder stack. Cancels Spell blade Fire/Ice.
Spell Blade Thunder damage bonus applies.
Combo action: Quick Cut
Combo bonus: Potency 150

42 Phalanx
Cast time 2.5s. Single target
Damage Immunity equal to 1/4 RDM's INT.
Duration 30s.

45 Aetheric Burst.
Cast time 5s, consumes a big chunk of mp and 2 spell blade stacks, duration 15s, cooldown 60s
The RDM does not receive a buff from his own Burst.
Effect varies by Element.

Ice: Menphina's Gift. Aura status conferred to party members. Limit Break guage fills much faster. MP recovery boosted to 2x natural rate. (+2% mp per 3s for 15s)

Fire: Azeyma's Rage. Temper status conferred to party members. +10% damage boost. HP natural recovery boosted to 2x natural rate. (+2% hp per 3s for 15s)

Thunder: Energize. Haste status conferred to party members. Skill/Spell Speed +10%. TP recovery boosted to natural rate +50%. (+30 per 3 seconds for 15s)



46 Coupe de Grace (Blow of Mercy)
Potency 180 +20 per spell blade stack.
Spell Blade damage bonus applies.
Becomes available when enemy hp < 20%.
Recast 15s. Does not interrupt combos. Off GCD/instant

50 Refresh
Cast time 2.5s, single target ranged
Recovers mp +3% for 15s


50 Doublecast
Instant
recast 60 seconds
Double potency for next spell, also double mp cost.
Works on DOTs, Cures, and Nukes.
Enhancement spells' potency are doubled... can make a 20% hp Stoneskin, 2x stronger Refresh, etc.
Sleep becomes AOE 5y as if the RDM had the BLM trait.
Any spell that creates a Spell Blade stack will create 2 stacks when Doublecast.

54 In Quartata (An evasive action in fencing)
Instant.
Recast 60 seconds.
Short jump back move. Evasion +30% for 10s.


55 Runic Blade
Instant.
Duration 20s
Absorbs Magic Damage and converts it to mp at a 4:1 ratio.
Max damage absorbed = 50% of RDM's max hp.

58 Circle Blade
140 TP, Potency 180 +10 per spell blade stack. AOE 5y radius
Consumes 2 Spell Blade stacks.
Spell Blade damage bonus applies. Astral Fire damage bonus applies.
Combo Action: Pris De Fer
Combo Bonus: Potency 220 +20 per spell blade stack
Combo bonus: May inflict slow 20% for 10s (ice), blind 20% for 10s (fire), or Paralyze 10s (thunder) depending on Spell Blade element.

60 Chainspell
Instant
Duration 5s
Recast 180s
Spell GCD and recast drops to 1 second.
Next 4-5 Spells cast instantly. Practical uses: Burn AOE spam, Heal spam, Frost spam, Shock spam. Excellent way to switch spell blade elements or to dps check.



Traits
8 Enhanced Intelligence
14 Enhanced Intelligence II
16 Enhanced En Garde (+10% skill speed and parry)
20 Enhanced Spell Blade Can stack twice, damage bonus is 10%. Base action damage +10%
24 Jack of all Trades. RDM's STR and MND effectively get a bonus of 1/2 their INT. Stronger Cures and Parry/Block. Certain Healer or DoW armors that RDM's can wear will count as having INT instead of MND or STR.
28 Flurry Spell Blade: Ice gives the status Fast Cast. Spell Speed +15%
32 Enhanced Intelligence III
36 Inferno Spell Blade: Fire gives the status Temper. Damage +5%.
40 Enhanced Spell Blade II Can Stack 3 times. Ice/Fire now grant Astral/Umbral at 2 stacks. Spell Blade damage bonus is 15%. Base action damage +20%
44 Lightning Reflexes Spell Blade: Thunder confers an additional status to the RDM. Combat Movement Speed enhanced
48 Enhanced Raise Raise in combat
52 Enhanced Aetheric Discharge. Discharges no longer consume Spell blade stacks. They are limited only by their recast timer.
56 Enhanced Intelligence IV
60 Enhanced Spell Blade III. Can stack 4 times, damage bonus is 20%. Base action damage +30%.


Animation:

Spell Blade- Sword glows with element's energy, colored orbs circle the RDM like Astral Fire/Umbral ice, number of orbs = number of stacks
Quick Cut - a horizontal chop
Posion, Raise, Heal- Standard CNJ cast.
Attaque Au Fer- A lunge/stab
En Garde- A sword salute
Frost, Sleep, Shock, Burn, Frost Blade- Standard BLM cast
Prise de Fer- Veritcal chop and lean on enemy with sword for a second
Conversion- similar to Transpose
Red Lotus Blade- An overhead chop that delivers a triangular explosion of Fire on impact
Detonate (Fire discharge)- Extend sword toward enemy, circular explosion of Fire
Deep Freeze (Ice Discharge)- Extend sword toward enemy, huge ice crystal drops on enemy
Bolt (Lightning Discharge)- Extend sword toward enemy, arc of electricity between sword and enemy
Aetheric Burst- Hold sword skyward, crackle with energy of the element, then explodes outward. Party members surrounded by element briefly.
Thunderstrike- similar to Red Lotus Blade, but makes a flash of light and clap of thunder on impact
Circle Blade- sort of a combination of Holy and Circle of Scorn. RDM spins around with sword extended making a circular tracer of light, jumps and strikes the ground with a circular explosion of elemental energy
Phalanx- WHM cast. A white version of Protect that is shield-shaped flashes on the target
Refresh- WHM cast. Blue dots/bubbles float up around the target brielfy
Coup de Gras- Sword lunge deep into target. RDM (or his Frost Blade) appear to stab through target, then Blinks back to where he started. This doesn't actually change his (or his Frost blade's) position.
In Quartata- slight step back to present a narrower profile to enemy. shield arm forward, sword pointed down and back
Runic Blade- Hold sword vertically in both arms, clutched to chest. Purple energy glow.
Doublecast- Similar to Swiftcast. Spellcast animation is sped up and appears to happen twice
Chainspell- a yellow clock face & swirling energy surround the RDM, and his casting animation is sped up

Fleshing out some of the details

Weapon damage: Unlike other mages, RDM weapon damage is low for both physical and magical attacks (about the level of a BRD’s physical damage). This is because RDMs auto-attack, and their place is on the low end of the DPS spectrum. So while ability potency's tend toward the high side, the actual damage done is still low. They have a single-target combo, a melee range AOE combo, and have the means to continue meleeing while standing back from a fight and casting. To help conserve ability slots, two their combos share the same opening move and are finished with a spell. Their party buffing move and off GCD attack both have 3 different effects depending on which Spell Blade element the Red Mage is using.

I'd consider adjusting physical and magical damage rating on their weapons to favor magic slightly if needed, since spell blade provides a damage bonus to melee attacks. There needs to be a balance achieved such that single-target damage doesn't surpass MNK/DRG/NIN, and their AOE damage doesn't surpass BLM.

Damage type: RDM damage is piercing and magical. If Spell Blade is up, it all counts as magical. If its not up, auto-attacks and Attaque Au Fer/Prise de Fer are piercing. Because of a level 24 trait, STR and INT are one stat for a RDM, which simplifies gearing and lets melee and magical attacks have the same amount of main stat. Boosting both stats on the same piece of gear with materia will not work.

Armor: When armor is not job-specific, RDM's make use of Caster sets and a few Light/Mid DoW/MNK/DRG armors. RDM can use small shields and a few mid-sized ones. SE will need to add new shields to the game since there are practically no high ilvl ones that aren't Tower Shields meant for PLDs. Alternately, they could add parrying daggers.




Primary mechanic: Spell Blade

Spell Blade description: Though the origins of Spell Blade are unknown, it is widely theorized to be the result of studying Beastmen tribe "enspells" by Thaumaturges. Lost to dusty tomes, "Spell Staff" just wasn't considered a safe or efficient means for a Thaumaturge to best his foes. It turns out it was the Thaumaturges' choice of weapon that was the problem. I'll leave the rest of the story to SE's Lore team, but it probably should involve a haughty Thaumaturge and a cavalier Duelist who loathed each other....

When casting elemental magic, the Red Mage's sword is his focus and becomes a temporary reservoir for elemental energies. Spell Blade harnesses residual energy from spell casting and attaches it to a weapon. This elemental energy in the blade increases melee damage by 5%. Spell Blade becomes enhanced by traits and gains additional damage boosts of 5%, up to a total of 20% at level 60.

This damage boost applies to auto-attack, melee skills, Circle Blade, and Aetheric Discharges.

Spell Blade accrues as stacks of energy. These stacks do not have anything to do with the amount of Spell Blade’s damage bonus; that is either on or off at its maximum power as determined by your traits. A few abilities let you spend Spell Blade stacks to produce damaging or enhancing effects. If you use all of your Spell Blade stacks, Spell Blade is cancelled and you lose its damage bonus until you take an action that creates at least one stack of Spell Blade. Spell Blade stacks will also wear off after 10 seconds if you are not taking any actions that renew them.

Ice: In addition to bonus melee damage, Spell Blade: Ice gives the status Umbral Ice, which enhances mp recovery and decreases the cost of Fire spells. The trait Flurry gives you a spell speed bonus while using Spell Blade: Ice, known as Fast Cast.

Fire: In addition to bonus melee damage, Spell Blade: Fire gives the status Astral Fire, which raises Fire damage & mp costs. Astral Fire increases damage only for Burn, Aetheric Discharge, and Circle Blade.

Lightning: In addition to bonus melee damage, Spell Blade: Lightning inflicts the status Dia on melee hits. Dia has a 5s duration but constantly reapplies itself as long as a RDM is meleeing. A trait also increases in-combat movement speed after level 46 while under the effect of Spell Blade: Lightning.


Changing elements: Spell Blade elements cannot co-exist on your sword. If taking an action that changes elements between Fire and Ice, Spell Blade is cancelled and so is the Astral/Umbral bonus (just like what happens when a BLMs does it wrong). Early on in your career you learn Conversion to make element transitions smoother. Its similar to Transpose.

Conversion is an incredibly useful ability. Much like Transpose, its lets you switch elements quickly. Unlike Transpose it makes the next Spell Blade generating Fire/Ice/Lightning skill convert the current element's stacks to the new element. It does not grant a stack and change elements the way Transpose does. So it preserves the Spell Blade stacks you have. Umbral Ice and Astral Fire will also change when using Conversion between Fire and Ice skills.

Astral Fire and Umbral Ice will linger if you use Conversion and switch to Lightning because Lightning doesn't have any effect on Astral Fire or Umbral Ice; the same as it is for Black Mages. Astral/Umbral will naturally wear off after 10 seconds. the way they do for Black Mages.


Abilities that trigger Spell Blade:
Ice: Frost, Frost Blade, Blizzard II
Fire: Red Lotus Blade, Burn
Lightning: Thunderstrike, Shock


Does this mean RDM's have a Fire/Ice cycle like BLMs? Sort of, yes. RDM's can usually conserve their mp pool for quite a long time though because their combos use TP and MP, so they are drawing from 2 different resource pools.

RDM's will tend to use Lightning and melee for single targets. If their mp or tp gets low they can swap to Ice. They have the option of using Frost/Deep Freeze for single target ranged damage almost like how a BLM wields Fire/Firestarter, and will never run out of mp when doing so, but it isn't quite as effective as meleeing with Fire or Lightning. While casting Ice Spells, a RDM isn't using TP, so he recovers it naturally. RDM's can AOE with every spell blade element by using Circle Blade, but it quickly uses up his spell blade stacks. Its more efficient to use Fire skills at melee range along with Circle Blade for the most effective and sustainable AOE.

Playstyle:

Ice Maging: You can backline by using DOTs and Ice-based spells. Frost's damage is slightly higher than other elemental nukes and you get a trait to cast it faster.

Frost Blade allows you to backline without losing your auto-attack. You can even do the melee/enfeebling combo with a Frost Blade. Discharges are similar to a BLM's Firestarter, but are on a cooldown rather than a proc. Burst can push the Limit Break guage. Your Frost blade can AOE for you with Circle Blade, or you can run in to use it (if Frost blade isn't up). This is a play it safe mode and your resource recovery mode. If you just cast DoT's, Frost & Discharge, you will recover TP while you're back-lining because you aren't spending any. Umbral Ice even at just level 1 or 2 will fill your mp pool very fast.


Frost Blade > DOTs > Frost spam mixed with Discharge and/or Circle Blade. You can support cast Heal, Refresh, and Phalanx.





Fire AOE Combo: Fire excels at AOE damage. Fire discharges are instant and AOE. Its Burst confers damage boosts to party members. Fire state is a mode of heightened damage for a RDM, and his combo provides a small damage boost to other magic DPS. Fire spells cost the most mp, and AOE skills cost more TP as well. The fact that you alternate between TP and MP helps make the combo a little more sustainable, but this is still a mode where you can easily run low on TP, MP, or both.

Just as a rough idea of damage numbers, I estimate in i130 gear a BLM hits for 600 and crits around 1000 with a Fire II. RDM's AOE's would hit around 300-450 and crit around 500-700. But he is still auto-attacking, and doesn't have downtime of cycling to Umbral like a BLM does. Just one move in his combo is single target, and he can easily get off ~10 AOE's (including Detonations and Circle Blade) before having to swap to Ice to recover mp.

Early on you just have Burn, which you can cast 3-4 times before running out of mp.
It then becomes Quick Cut > Red Lotus Blade > Burn repeat... with Circle Blade and/or Discharge thrown in once you learn them.

Because the rotation alternates as single target TP > AOE TP > AOE mp skill > spell blade stack use, you can repeat the rotation a few times before being out of TP & mp. There are trade-offs no matter what you choose for Spell Blade stack usage. Discharge should be your default choice. Circle Blade makes you run out of TP faster in an already TP-heavy combo, but does more damage and inflicts enfeebles.



Lightning Combo: Shock combo puts Dia on a target and is your best single-target rotation thanks to Shock doing critical damage from its combo bonus and Shock Discharge's DOT damage.

DOTs > Quick Cut > Thunderstrike > Shock
Discharge/Burst, Circle Blade, and Doublecast Shock as timers/stacks allow.
Do 2 combos, then renew DOTs.
You may alternate the enfeeble combo or just use Circle Blade by itself.

Between good single target damage, Haste Burst, faster movement, and en-Dia, Lightning is your go-to single target rotation.


The enfeeble combo:
You can use 1, 2, or all 3 parts of it depending on your needs. You can freely use these moves without impacting your spell blade. They are normal melee attacks, and benefit from Spell blade's damage bonus. The enfeebles inflicted are: damage penalty > Pacification > Slow, Blind, or Paralyze. All of these moves can be proxy'd by a Frost Blade, so this combo can be done at range with a Frost Blade up. Its not too bad on DPS, and cripples enemies. Circle blade costs 2 stacks, and this combo doesn't generate any, so be prepared to lose all your stacks after using it.

Attaque Au Fer > Prise de Fer > Circle Blade



Coup De Grace is a move like Mercy Stroke and Misery's End. Damage varies a little by how many Spell Blade stacks you have.



Phalanx and Refresh are powerful support spells, but using them takes a GCD and yields no damage, which is never good for a DPS job. Be cautious about over-using them. Along with DOTs, they can be a good filler option to cast when recovering mp in Ice cycle or good between dungeon pulls.

I think I like the idea of Red Mage being a like a Spell Blade.

While I like the idea of a spell sword being included in the game, isn't the Arcanist already a Red Mage/Pet Class hybrid? I know most people try to play it as a pure DPS like the would BLM, but I've always played it as more of a debuffing specialist who does damage in the process. I feel it's more of a support class than a raw damage dealer, though from what I've seen and how people talk about it, apparently I'm the only one, despite the fact that over half of it's abilities have a debuff attached to them even if you don't count Virus and Eye for an Eye.....

I'd rather Mystic Knights (not spell blades/swords >.>) and Rune Fencers over Red Knights. FF14 isn't ready for that class. Rune Fencer can be a Disciple of Magic Tank class, or Mystic Knight can be a DPS with both Ranged and Melee spells (probably closer to what a Red Mage would be)

I don't see it being pure dps. And I don't see it being powerful enough to content with the heavy hitters like mnk/drg/nin/blm/smn. I see it having around the same dps potential as brd with support spells thrown in.

Hard to picture Red Mage in a world where there are only 3 classes. Unless they add a 4th class for Support, it seems like a poor fit.

I could see a Red Mage, in the current setting, having 4 stances.

Magical stance which allows the player to use weaker offensive spells of the main elements (Water, Blizzard, Fire, Aero, Stone, Thunder)
Physical stance in which allows the player to use weaker, offensive abilities in rapid succession, inflicting damage and dealing different ailments (Poison, slow, heavy, healing reduced, Dispel etc)
Healing stance which allows the user to use weaker healing based spells and esuna-like abilities (Heal, Healra, Pray, Pray, Soft, Vox etc)
Tank stance which allows the user to become a tank, to a greater degree of Titan-egi but not good enough for a full Off-tank or main tank role (Taunt, a form of Manawall/ward, AoE Taunt; no tank gear = lower parry, defense, HP etc)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Actually I was hoping that red mages could stand back and cast refresh on the real jobs like they are suppose to do and provide the delicious cross job ability magic X.

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>:O

*coughreadmysigcough*

I'm surprised no one has brought up the chrysalis fight and the fact he uses double and triple cast (red Mage moves in tactics).

I see red Mage having weak spells, both healing and nuking, and using double and triple cast mechanics to make them powerful through casting them in quick succession.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I'm surprised no one has brought up the chrysalis fight and the fact he uses double and triple cast (red Mage moves in tactics).

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I always thought Double/Triple to be BLM abilities more lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Actually I was hoping that red mages could stand back and cast refresh on the real jobs like they are suppose to do and provide the delicious cross job ability magic X.

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FFXI ptsd coming back... "RDM HASTE HEAL AND REFRESH ONLY! NO ATTACKING, NO DIA OR BIO, AND DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT ENTHUNDER AND MELEEING!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steady

Hard to picture Red Mage in a world where there are only 3 classes. Unless they add a 4th class for Support, it seems like a poor fit.

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I mean they're going to add red mage into the game eventually. It's one of the most requested jobs. They can make it fit however they want. Scholar has always been a cross between white and black mage and they made it a healer. Dark knight is usually a DPS and they made it a tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I'm surprised no one has brought up the chrysalis fight and the fact he uses double and triple cast (red Mage moves in tactics).

I see red Mage having weak spells, both healing and nuking, and using double and triple cast mechanics to make them powerful through casting them in quick succession.

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That ability in the hands of a player character is a little overpowered, since you'd have a spell or ability being done three times at full power with individual chances of critical hit on each. Not even just in PvE, but a RDM with Double or Triple as seen in Chrysalis would be overpowered as hell in PvP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by File2ish

FFXI ptsd coming back... "RDM HASTE HEAL AND REFRESH ONLY! NO ATTACKING, NO DIA OR BIO, AND DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT ENTHUNDER AND MELEEING!"

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Those are wounds that'll never heal, friend.

if DRK is anything to go by you might want to brace yourself come 4.0..... New Healer - Red Mage, look forward to it :-D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Duelle

That ability in the hands of a player character is a little overpowered, since you'd have a spell or ability being done three times at full power with individual chances of critical hit on each. Not even just in PvE, but a RDM with Double or Triple as seen in Chrysalis would be overpowered as hell in PvP.

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Not necessarily, if you remember BLU from ffxi, there were a lot of moves that seemed like they would be OP if a player used them but actually weren't since we didn't have the stats the monsters do.

Shock may be 2k per cast when he uses it but if the player version was, say, a 100 potency nuke, then under double cast it would only be 200 potency and 300 under triple cast.

If double cast was a 30 sec or 1 min cooldown and triple cast a 2-3 min cooldown that would be pretty tame.

RDM would work imo.

I would definitely be a support role with basic dps/heal abilities.

I think it would be a somewhat hybrid of selene and brd, but slightly different

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

RDM would work imo.

I would definitely be a support role with basic dps/heal abilities.

I think it would be a somewhat hybrid of selene and brd, but slightly different

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Small issue here...
FFXIV at the moment is setup with healer/tank/DPS setup in mind.

the only place there for RDM would fit in would be a healer+support role (sorry just don't see SE making this a DPS role) like BRD is a DPS+support role

I could imagine them making this a role where you are a dps with some buff/debuff abilities, but honestly it wouldnt wind up like you want it to be in the current party set up. People want bards because of ballad, sure foes is nice, but they take bards in case they need emergency resources. Right now most of the dps checks in serious content are so tight you really couldnt afford to give up one of your best damage dealers (melee) in exchange for another bard. Most of the fight mechanics are doable with 3 melee, but in general people consider 2 melee, 1 caster, 1 bard optimum. If you did go with 2 traditional melee, a rdm, and a caster the rdm would have to offer something pretty dang good to make them preferable over the safety of having a bard. Not to mention they have been making some enemies invulnerable to certain debuff effects, and they arent that useful anyways.
tl:dr current party set up doesnt work for very support oriented classes

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

Small issue here...
FFXIV at the moment is setup with healer/tank/DPS setup in mind.

the only place there for RDM would fit in would be a healer+support role (sorry just don't see SE making this a DPS role) like BRD is a DPS+support role

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Its not really, with the content available its more than viable to have a class that heals/buffs and has the ability to dps.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Its not really, with the content available its more than viable to have a class that heals/buffs and has the ability to dps.

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we got too many DPS roles in the game atm adding a new "Hybrid DPS" role would be a waste more logical would be to make RDM into a healer role with buffing ablities (which is what RDM ended up being in FFXI (trust me i know I dropped the job because of this)) since there is a lack of healer and tank roles.

for all we know we might end up with the next 3 jobs being added as being Rune fencer (Tank), Samurai (DPS), and Red Mage (Healer)

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

we have *

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We are lacking caster dps roles and dps roles which bring something more than just raw numbers.

Anyway not going to go back and forth, gets a bit boring after a while.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

We are lacking caster dps roles and dps roles which bring something more than just raw numbers.

Anyway not going to go back and forth, gets a bit boring after a while.

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my base point being, don't hold your breath about RDM either a) being added to the game and b) if it is added to the game that it is going to be a DPS job

there was alot of posts about adding DRK to the game as a DPS role and than ended in...... DRK - Tank role

I would brace yourself to the posiblity that SE might ignore all the "RDM DPS" posts and bring it out as a Healer role (well more logical than TANK role)

i'm done with disaponting you guys so i'm going to sit back and laugh.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Red Mage should wield a sword and be a debuffer applying negative status effects that weaken enemies increasing the parties DPS.

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When it gets implemented in a way that is somewhat similar but different enough to not trigger those nostalgia feels, can I look forward to another 1.5 years of weekly posts about how it must be fixed now? Complete with game breaking redesign ideas?

Hybrid roles cant really work in this game.

Why would I bring a gimpy heals that can kind of dps? Why not leave the healing to a true healer and bring a dps that can focus on dps only?

Bards are mostly included in progression content for Ballad. Once things are farmed, most bards switch to pure dps and either dont play songs other than Foe (not needed), or enter the instance as another job.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

we got too many DPS roles in the game atm

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I hate it when people say this. The tank to healer to DPS ratio come Heavensward is 3:3:7. That's pretty good, all things considered. We'll have too much DPS when we hit 2:1:22.

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adding a new "Hybrid DPS" role would be a waste more logical would be to make RDM into a healer role with buffing ablities (which is what RDM ended up being in FFXI (trust me i know I dropped the job because of this)) since there is a lack of healer and tank roles.

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Green Mage, Geomancer, Mystic/Oracle, Chemist. There, I have four other suckersvolunteers you can turn into healers.

Edit: Just to elaborate on these...

Green Mage - A HoT-based healer. Not Direct Heals+HoT+Shields like SCH, but more akin to resto druids from WoW with HoTs that can be detonated into burst heals when needed.

Chemist - Gun-toting healer that throws potions that heal allies. Reliant on TP recovery since their abilities cost TP while have access to medicinal darts that can impair enemies (Tranquilizer Dart) or quickly heal allies (Remedy Dart).

Geomancer - Healer that uses the strength of the land to heal and protect allies. A potential system for them would rely on a sort of elemental cycle (the Geomancer's Parable would be "Wind moves water, water corrodes the earth, the earth withstands the wind").

Mystic/Oracle - A healer built on damage dealt, HP transfers with a multiplier, or perhaps converting damage taken into heals or healing power. The design would play on the ying-yang aesthetic that we know of mystic/oracle from FF Tactics. Tying the job to the Milvaneth Sacrarium in Ul'dah would give it the additional lore benefit of playing into the duality of Nald and Thal along with Thaumaturge.

Honorary mention - Dancer - A healer built on a system similar to NIN mudras but it being called steps. Steps bring an immediate benefit to the person it is being used on, and Flourishes would be healing "finishers" or grant specific effects based on what is needed.

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Originally Posted by Ageofwar

if DRK is anything to go by you might want to brace yourself come 4.0..... New Healer - Red Mage, look forward to it :-D

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If RDM becomes healer only I will be 1,000 times more disappointed than I have ever been in SE before. Please do not say such things. D:

RDM can definitely fit the support dps archetype.

Make EnElement spells buffs that improve specific archetypes, so EnFire deals additional fire damage on spellcasts, EnThunder deals additional lightning damage on skillcasts, EnQuake deals additional earth damage on skillcasts and reduces damage taken for a while(damage lower than Lightning), EnLight causes heals to heal more.

Of course, there's also Dia, a defense shred. Refresh an MP version of Goad and Raise.

And if it was up to me, I'd also allow them to cross class Cure and Medica. But due to low MND these spells would need to be Doublecast to be really effective. And Dualcast would be the real crux of the RDM class, seeing as it's their signature spell in the series.
As a twist, I'd have dualcast be applied as a buff when you use a basic three stage combo. So you'd go 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> get dualcast -> Fire as your basic damage combo. or 1-> 2 -> 3 -> Dualcast -> Medica if you want to help aoe heal.

Dualcast casts a spell twice, with the second one costing no MP and dealing full damage/healing. Effectively doubling the spell's effect.

Main stat intellect. And intellect increases both magical and physical damage.

Of course, none of this will actually happen. But I'd play a class like that, even if I have to suffer through leveling with extremely subpar personal dps.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

Hybrid roles cant really work in this game.

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SCH would like a word with you :p

Causing increased damage taken as a debuff (Dia) is a solution to lower avg dps. I propose an on hit effect on a certain enspell element, while other enspell elements can buff the RDM in other ways (temper, fast cast, etc). This way you have tools to adapt to different situations. 4 man dungeon? Use fire combo and enfire. Gives you temper and astral fire to boost your damage and the skills are mostly aoe. Dangerous to melee or out of mp? Conjure a blade that does your autoattacks for you, stand back and cast blizzard and an instant proc like Firestarter but ice based, while enjoying fast cast boost and Umbral ice. Lower damage than other elements, but resourceless. Large group? Single target? Use thunder combo for best single target potency, while inflicting Dia to boost party damage. There\\\\\\'s still room for some Enfeebling and other buffing. Dispel. Maybe break instead of stun. Converting enspell stacks into party buffs. Refresh and or regain and or phalanx.

I'm pretty sure will see red Mage and samurai in the game by 4.0 or in 4.0 the question is what roles with they be.

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Originally Posted by Velox

SCH would like a word with you :p

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SCH is not a jack-of-all-trades. RDM has always been, though.

The thing about Red Mage in FFXIV is that they could design it to fit most of the roles available in the game.

Healer with some offensive magic (ranged from safety) or melee (higher DPS, maybe mana regen?)

Pure DPS that mixes melee & magic with some limited healing/defensive magic (like how a SMN has physick/raise)

Support DPS that mixes melee & magic with minor group wide support abilities (think a melee version of BRD)

Or a tank that uses defensive white magic & melee with some limited offensive magic power.

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

If RDM becomes healer only I will be 1,000 times more disappointed than I have ever been in SE before. Please do not say such things. D:

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RDM could make a very solid healer. Think about how WHM has cleric stance to switch between heals & DPS. RDM could have a melee version of the same thing. They could also have the normal Cleric stance for ranged magic too. This would arguably be the most classic implementation of RDM since all 3 features of RDM (heals, magic, melee) can all be reasonably represented and useful to the class.

personally, i think the red mage need to be reinvented for a mmorpg, being a melee, that can cast attack spell, heal spell, buff and debuff is overpowered.

make it a melee that can cast elemental spell is already quite close of what do already the ninja.
i dunno what they can do for make it more interesting and more unique. they can either go with the idea to make it a jobs that will use a different weapon or make it a jobs that will not be a mage but more a elemetal knight. i dunno, i feel the red mage will either be too powerfull or not enough powerfull for be good. we can argue that bring it's needed and find some skill that can fit the image of the red mage. however, do it will fill a role needed, do it will bring something to the game and the team?

i don't see the red mage like a healer, i feel Dancer will be better for this. i do see it like a support/dps that for sure. but how make it work is something that will recquire a lot of work. and at best it will not come before the 4.0.....

be a jack of all trade in a solo game is nice, into a mmorpg is often bad, since you can do all, but master nothing, and the mmorpg recquire specialisation since it's game of group, not solo.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

personally, i think the red mage need to be reinvented for a mmorpg, being a melee, that can cast attack spell, heal spell, buff and debuff is overpowered.

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the concept has already been executed successfully in WoW with the Enhancement Shaman. The way it stays balanced is that the class has a stacking buff from autoattacks that makes their next spellcast cost less/cast faster (up to eventually casting nothing and being an instant cast), so they have to choose between throwing a heal or throwing a lightning bolt. if they throw out dps spells their dps is on par with the other classes, but if they throw heals it's obviously going to output lower dps. furthermore, the class has an extremely small mana pool so it can really only cast 3-4 heals before it's out of mana if it isn't taking advantage of the stacking buff.

or to take a different route, they could just give RDM different stances to allow it to dps/heal/whatever, only switchable outside of combat.