Melee Limitbreak

Pls tell your SE programmer team, that the casttime of the melee limitbreak in Frontline is to short, it is not avoidable with 0,5 sec ...

The animation 3 sec and casttime 0,5 sec, for this dmg is it out of balacne.

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Originally Posted by Redfame

Pls tell your SE programmer team, that the casttime of the melee limitbreak in Frontline is to short, it is not avoidable with 0,5 sec ...

The animation 3 sec and casttime 0,5 sec, for this dmg is it out of balacne.

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Try moving this to the PvP board and Xexos or one of the other devs might see it. Fern has little to no input on front lines since he's the Lore Team admin and Chief of localization .

Sorry, no.

It's good as-is because it's basically like putting a giant red flag on your head for a few seconds so the enemy's turn on you & murder you for utilizing it.

I do think however that it'd be nice if there were like a minor saiyan-like aura over a person with a primed LB to inform you of the incoming danger.

There should simple be no limit break at all in PvP. Or the old one. They were halfway okay.

Stick to the 4k max Health minimum and melee LBs aren't so much of a problem (the times that it does kill you -- odds are you would have been killed by the focus fire anyway)

The animation lock the enemy is stuck in following the lb leaves them vulnerable and gives time for recuperates, second-winds, CCs, emphyreal winds, or whatever. It's not an issue in my opinion.

Just try to avoid OHKO situations, which means staying at 4k+ HP or don't let them get close.

I think if you roled melee you wouldn't think this :)

edit: and there's nothing more psychologically damaging to a Melee DPS player than for an enemy fishy surviving LB with .01% health and swimming away~~

my lunch, nuuuuu

Well, you can still try to survive the LB if you wear tank accessories.

Just go full tank accessories. Every dps should do that.

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Originally Posted by Redfame

Pls tell your SE programmer team, that the casttime of the melee limitbreak in Frontline is to short, it is not avoidable with 0,5 sec ...

The animation 3 sec and casttime 0,5 sec, for this dmg is it out of balacne.

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No heck no and fck no. In fact I want SE to increase my range of lb, like they can to run up to 10 yalms before I loose my lb. U prolly don't play melee in frontline to make this complaint. Idiot.

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Originally Posted by Butcherboy

No heck no and fck no. In fact I want SE to increase my range of lb, like they can to run up to 10 yalms before I loose my lb. U prolly don't play melee in frontline to make this complaint. Idiot.

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As aslways people is really nice in PvP theards xD
Anyway I think too that there is something "wrong" with the Melee LB, cause it can really one-shot a full HP caster with no tank jewels and he can't do anything to prevent it.
Butcherboy as u said if you are too ar from the one who start casting LB you will lose it, but I can confirm you that as caster when I see a melee starting the cast of a lb on me (without stunning, that is a melee faultin that case), I have no time even via sprint or Aethrial manipulation to reach 10yalm distance if I wasn't already running, and casters can't cast and run :/

Anyway I'm not too in panic for this problem, even 1 tank jewel or VIT food can make you survive.

How 'bout getting rid of the sick joke we call Adrenaline. On their own as party-based limit breaks, they are absolutely fine. If you're melee LB'd there, there's a problem with your team or you were a healer that needed to die.

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Originally Posted by Geologo

As aslways people is really nice in PvP theards xD
cause it can really one-shot a full HP caster with no tank jewels and he can't do anything to prevent it...I have no time even via sprint or Aethrial manipulation to reach 10yalm distance if I wasn't already running

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This is latency or something. You have to break range or CC the melee before his Raw Destruction Cast Bar reaches 1/2 full. Even if a PLD comes in to Stun him or you starting running far away, if the range or Stun wasn't in that first half second, then the LB will still land.

all those things need to be happening in the first half-second after LB starts being cast. Once the cast bar reaches between 1/3 to 1/2 full it's too late. This isn't unique to Melee, all classes LBs behave this way

Slaughter last night, I rolled whm. 5 members got melee lb'd 0 died XD

It is annoying how hard it is to dodge but meh its the same with a caster lb

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Originally Posted by Butcherboy

No heck no and fck no. In fact I want SE to increase my range of lb, like they can to run up to 10 yalms before I loose my lb. U prolly don't play melee in frontline to make this complaint. Idiot.

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I agree with this dude ... but not with rude part.

The melee LB casting time is fine in my opinion... cuz Its tricky to lb.. actually tough job.. when there are multiple casters sleep / Bind / push / and a random tank Stun me.. when Im about to lb and lose half the charge cuz of that.

And yes i would love to see SE increase my lb range.

Melee LB is allright as it is to me. You can wear tank accessory and have a VIT setup and have shields (stoneskin, adloquium) up eventually. After they've done the LB you have lots of time to heal you (even without Benediction / Lustrate) or to get healed, because the guy LBin you get stunned for 2-3 second after doing it.
I think it is totally fair.

I run with 5.7k HP in frontline, you can easily get a half way there.

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Originally Posted by Geologo

Anyway I think too that there is something "wrong" with the Melee LB, cause it can really one-shot a full HP caster with no tank jewels and he can't do anything to prevent it.

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They could always wear tank accessories to prevent getting . . . oh wait.

One of my last matches had a Dragoon go through his main DPS rotation on me while I was under Attunement and then to my delight I see the melee LB bar going off knowing he just wasted it since I had several seconds of invulnerability left. I'd already marked him for my team to focus down (gotta do something during those 10 seconds where I can't move), and ended up chasing him back towards his team as his HP dwindled and finishing him off with energy drain. Knowing how frustrated he must have been already, after going from thinking he had me to wasting his LB and then dying instead, I decided to risk opening a bottle of Realm Reborn Red over his dead body before he revived back at his base. And who says going as a healer in Frontlines isn't any fun? :D

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

One of my last matches had a Dragoon go through his main DPS rotation on me while I was under Attunement and then to my delight I see the melee LB bar going off knowing he just wasted it since I had several seconds of invulnerability left. I'd already marked him for my team to focus down (gotta do something during those 10 seconds where I can't move), and ended up chasing him back towards his team as his HP dwindled and finishing him off with energy drain. Knowing how frustrated he must have been already, after going from thinking he had me to wasting his LB and then dying instead, I decided to risk opening a bottle of Realm Reborn Red over his dead body before he revived back at his base. And who says going as a healer in Frontlines isn't any fun? :D

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Rofl this has been me soooo many times. . . that is. . . I've been the dragoon wasting the limit break =)

Dmg is not the problem, but the short unstoppable casttime.
You can stop every caster lb with stun and sleep but the try to break a melee cast is only a ''lucky strike''.

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Originally Posted by Redfame

Dmg is not the problem, but the short unstoppable casttime.
You can stop every caster lb with stun and sleep but the try to break a melee cast is only a ''lucky strike''.

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Seems pretty fair, given that caster LB can do more than 3x the total melee LB damage with a good strike on multiple targets and can be used at range. Melee LB does more damage to a single target but must be used...in melee range. It makes us susceptible to any AoE CCs and everyone who could even think about targeting us as we go running in. Unless the melee uses Fetter Ward, of course.

All in all, though, there are disadvantages and advantages to both types of DPS LBs in PvP. Each has its own niches and counters. So I don't see the problem, neither as a player nor a game designer in training.

As far as I'm concerned, the only aspect of LBs in PvP that might be cause for concern is Fetter Ward + LB (or, to a lesser extent, Hide + LB). One could make the argument that that ability removes pretty much all sense of skillful use for melee LB for the Jobs that have FW. Aside from that, the only other valid argument in my eyes is not having LBs in PvP at all.

just ask them to remove all limit break from pvp please

There are a lot more problems in Slaughter than limit breaks:

1. Push mechanics off cliffs - Sure LB's have unavoidable deaths sometimes but they do have counters. There's nothing you can do about getting pushed off a cliff. Instant death mechanics are not good for PvP - sure LB's need to be toned down but then so does healing because otherwise hardly anyone would get KO'd.
2. Ninja spawn camping - The map's setup makes it too easy for ninjas to spawn camp and gank lone players running back after getting killed. Bounce pads help for easier getaways and when you're stunned on your mount you can't even purify. Being fully locked while stunned while mounted is probably the main issue here.
3. CC's last way too long - a full length sleep or bind shouldn't last for more than 3-4 seconds. Sitting around for 15 seconds unable to move is a terrible PvP mechanic.

Sure limit breaks are high on the list of toxic mechanics in Slaughter, but Slaughter is full of toxic mechanics. I can't fathom why it's the most popular mode of PvP and why it's the only queue that pops. I feel like I need to roll a black mage or summoner if I want to have an impact on the teams victory...I just do it because it's the quickest games and the quickest way to get PvP rank (ugh it's been a horrible grind).

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Originally Posted by Geryth

There are a lot more problems in Slaughter than limit breaks:

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1. Positioning

2. Communication instead of moving out of the base 1 by 1 like idiots

3. Healers have esuna, you have purify, cc immunity exists

It's avoidable unless you fail to avoid it.

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

1. Positioning

2. Communication instead of moving out of the base 1 by 1 like idiots

3. Healers have esuna, you have purify, cc immunity exists

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I'm not complaining about those mechanics in the sense that "I can't counter them" or there's "nothing I can do about it" or "whine whine whine". I'm just noting that these mechanics are anti-fun, toxic, and bad for PvP (when I said there's nothing I can do about getting pushed off a cliff I mean that AFTER I've been pushed I can't do anything to stop it - obviously paying attention to push classes and positioning is a way to limit these encounters). The OP is complaining about melee limit break - I'm just saying that's there's bigger problems in Slaughter right now than limit breaks. That said, here's my take on your "counter points".

1. Most classes that can push you off the cliff can stun you first. And many times both GC's will gang up on you and push you towards your ramp. There are many situations where you can't avoid being close to a ledge. The mechanic as a whole is toxic, it's really nothing to do "counters". Instant death mechanics are "anti-fun" meaning the joy obtained by the players pushing you off a cliff does not offset the frustration someone gets by being pushed off a cliff, thus the "net-fun" of the encounter is negative as a whole for the game. It's bad design.

2. Yeah, right, communication. In a 24 man team people can't even agree to go to markets or mannors after the eggs pops. I've tried and tried to organize a simple 3-4 people to thwart campers and what usually happens is I get killed by 3 ninjas with battle high and LB's when I actually pose a challenge for them trying to help a clueless teammate have a safe passage to the bounce pad. In Aether the flames have even started to employ warriors or dragoons to hide on the flanks to get that initial slow while you're mounted so you can't even take a long side route so the ninjas can catch up if you didn't go straight down the center like a noob. The way the map plays and the general behavior of PUGs makes this too successful of a strategy and is also an "anti-fun" mechanic - if you can't leave your base that's a terrible feeling. Again, not that I'm complaining that I can't be successful at killing ninja campers (I'm usually the catalyst to their demise on the occasions that I can organize something against them or if I have my own limit break up I can sometimes 1v2 them), I'm just stating that it's an anti-fun mechanic as a whole and Slaughter particularly helps it to be a successful strategy.

3. 15 second sleep = Esuna. 12 second sleep = purify. 9 second sleep = ? Also healers are usually struggling to keep people alive, and I can't control a healer's ability to notice that I'm asleep. The fact that anything renders me unable to participate for so long is also an "anti-fun" mechanic. Purify is the only thing I have control of and it's a 3 minute cooldown - I get to use it maybe three times in one match, whereas I'm CC'd way more often than that. For a PvP encounter any CC needs a hard cap of 4-5 seconds with diminishing returns making you immune after the third CC regardless of type (bind/sleep/stun etc.) This would even help alleviate the cometeor spam issue. Mass bind/sleep plus cometeor spam is the devil for this mode.

Anti-fun doesn't mean there aren't counters, and it doesn't mean that there isn't strategy or even some fun involved in the encounters (remember, one side is having a great time while the other is having an even more frustrating time). But overall they are toxic to the health and enjoyment of the game.

I agree with some of what you're saying, Geryth. Some.

Knocking people off cliffs to get kills is not a healthy mechanic, for most all of the reasons you outlined. Though, despite agreeing with you, I'd argue that it's quite possible that the "net fun" of the mechanic could be positive depending on just how much someone enjoys killing people this way.

(Side Note: Word is that DRG can survive being pushed off a cliff via a well-time Elusive Jump. So there may be a single counter to this mechanic, at least.)

All in all, for cliff-pushing, if the one who pushes you does not get credit for the kill (and thus the enemy team does not get points in Slaughter), then the mechanic is acceptable. I'm not sure how it works now, but if it were to work as I just described than that would be fine, imo. Otherwise it's just a cheap way to cheese some points in for your kill count.

As for camping of bases - I disagree. If people are foolish enough to keep running back into an ambush, then they deserve to get stuck in their own base. There are very easy ways around a base camp...camping unless the enemy team had overwhelming numbers there.

As a NIN who rarely ever base camps anyway, I consider it a valid battle strategy.

Your point on CC is true, but your "limits" on their duration are far too extreme. Given the 2.5s base GCD in FFXIV, base duration of sleeps and roots should be 10s, or 4 GCDs. That's a fine amount of time when taking into account what would otherwise be achievable. With the diminishing returns of CC, that duration seems fair to me.

Getting pushed off a cliff it's not 100% death. You don't always die depending from where you fall. It's absolutely fair as classes like healer have absolutely no way to kill someone or of disposing of people chasing them.

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Originally Posted by Faltrask

Getting pushed off a cliff it's not 100% death. You don't always die depending from where you fall. It's absolutely fair as classes like healer have absolutely no way to kill someone or of disposing of people chasing them.

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And 9/10 you're on the top of the ramp or the middle battleground where it -normally- happens. THAT is what they're talking about. Pretty safe to assume we know a deep fall isn't going to kill you. That mechanic didn't exactly change from the PVE scene.

Also...Really, Healers don't really do this as a counter measure. It's more done as an offensive measure. >.>

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

Last Post

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Well what I mean is that even if you push someone down, if you don't do it on the external side of the cliff i's not a 100% kill.

What they should change is that the falling kill goes to the last person who did damage to it counting dots. So if you're from Limsa and you throw down someone from uldah who have a gridanian player's dot on him, the kill goes to gridania, but i guess that can't be helped.
I've Killed tons of Fevered/High people with fluid aura, unfortunately sometime it happened that I just gave points to other FCs.

I think the push back thing is something that makes the fight interesting, you always have to be careful about that.

Short Version:
I do it as a tease/offesive measure... But yea you don't kill people 100% of the times, especially Ninjas lol.

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What they should change is that the falling kill goes to the last person who did damage to it counting dots.

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this is what happens already...

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

this is what happens already...

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What I meant is that it is BAD that you throw someone down and another GC get the kill-point just because the target had their dots on him.

I love knocking people off ledges. Shield bash into glory slash, goodbye :D
Plus it makes healers scary when near a ledge.

I can only repeat it, melee lb is out of balance. It is like, a gamemaster is on the map and killing ppl for fun. 2nd problem, lb is after a kill rdy for a 2nd use. What a hard developer fail..., Realy hard joke....

Get come vitality rings, you are now no longer killed instantly by limit breaks

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

Get come vitality rings, you are now no longer killed instantly by limit breaks

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It is old, every one know abaout tank stuff, but if you are on a horse and an ninja come from hide with stun and dmg skills, so is that not the solution, also you are a freekill and can not do anything.

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Originally Posted by Redfame

It is old, every one know abaout tank stuff, but if you are on a horse and an ninja come from hide with stun and dmg skills, so is that not the solution, also you are a freekill and can not do anything.

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...you still deal alot of damage with 2 or 3 health items

Also if you are on a horse when you know ninjas are doing to gank you, you kinda asked for it :P

iirc Recuperate heals a % of max HP, so your VIT is boosting it's potency.

IMO Start with all VIT rightside, and over the course of PVP matches start trading those Fending accessories for main-stat until you find the HP amount / Attack Power you're satisfied with but will still keep you alive.

My DRG/MNK/NIN loadouts are at 5250~ HP after eating food, and that's not even full rightside VIT.

Battle High/Fever, Allagan Weapon System buffs, and CDs/Debuffs are what turn LB into 4ooo+ OHKOs, not your accessories. Accessories are crumbs in DPS boosts compared to the former, and those buffs/debuffs don't happen unless keeping alive.

The only one I'm cautious about with stacking VIT on is WHM. With too much I really feel the hit on my MP pool, even with AP'd Mana Draw.

And I don't bother when BLM or SMN because never leave the backlines.

I stack Full VIT on whm, I also have Bonus Points stacked there. MP pool never really been a problem if Bard know his job, plus I always carry X-Ethers with me for emergencies.
I enter with 5.7k HP, plus all my vit gear has DET and CRIT, so having VIT gear weights less on my healing potency, and focus on Spell speed on the left side (body, head, etc)

It's funny when you get HP/MP Boost + Thrill of war buff and you get around 8k+ HP, stoneskin lasts forever xD.

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Originally Posted by TwiissTwiiss

Just go full tank accessories. Every dps should do that.

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Shhhh....

On a side note.... It feels very nice when you take melee LB... And the melee is just like: "O_o"

It has been found out. Vit accs and you are safe. I never LB random dps/healers anymore (unleass I'm drunk or something). I chance it once in a while if I suspect he/she will be targeted next by my pty or get marked.

Worst moments are when I start LB and I see attunement/hallowed ground is on -__-

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Worst moments are when I start LB and I see attunement/hallowed ground is on -__-

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And tank LB buff