Whats with the Gladiator's in high lvl dungeons?

2 times have I seen Gladiator's in dungeons where they shouldve been paladins and they all have one thing in common; theyre awful. Dont pull aoe agro, never say anything even when talking to them, stand in AOEs, and cant keep ST agro to the life of them as the DPS and Healer are always able to steal it, and they die incredibly quickly. And they arnt new because the game didnt bring up the "New player" message.

Has anyone else been experiencing this?

Thank god I haven't run into that, I would of left the minute I saw a lvl 50 glad in my dungeon.

There are a handful of people (I had the experience one day of running into like 3 of them back to back) who refuse to play as their job, which is uterly annoying and honestly they--post level 30 content--should be locked out of the DF if you are playing a class. I mean classes where supposedly left in the game to add to solo-play survive-ability so why should they be allowed to enter DF which is a group play experience? >.>

I understand your frustration...

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

I mean classes where supposedly left in the game to add to solo-play survive-ability...

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Can you expand more on this? As the game is now I've always wondered why they bothered with the whole class/job thing as it's currently pointless. I thought it to be a relic of an 1.0 idea that didn't work out. It would be interesting to hear more about this.

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Originally Posted by FaileExperiment

Can you expand more on this? As the game is now I've always wondered why they bothered with the whole class/job thing as it's currently pointless. I thought it to be a relic of an 1.0 idea that didn't work out. It would be interesting to hear more about this.

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The solo-play was for 1.0 era. For ARR, the vision was for all classes to eventually have two jobs each, but as you can see from SMN/SCH, it didn't work as well as intended and it only worked to the level it does because ACN was designed from the start with two jobs in mind. SE apparently ditched that idea with 3.0 jobs having no base class at all, and is only keeping the class system for pre-3.0 jobs because it can't really be removed anymore.

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Originally Posted by FaileExperiment

Can you expand more on this? As the game is now I've always wondered why they bothered with the whole class/job thing as it's currently pointless. I thought it to be a relic of an 1.0 idea that didn't work out. It would be interesting to hear more about this.

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It IS a relic of the 1.0 system. The original idea was that a base class, with access to more cross class skills, would be better for solo play because you could grab survivability skills from other classes that you couldn't have as a job.

It didn't really work out that way.

Ran into a level 50 Gladiator in T4 while farming light. Suffice it to say I ended up tanking almost everything.

My guess is either they were bots or clueless people that don't want to admit or acknowledge they have no idea what they are doing. My money is probably on the latter as I have run into such people that got verbally abusive with me when I suggested that they should really go back and do class quests and unlock their jobs if they are past lvl 30.

Well it can be removed. But yes, in 1.0 classes were designed to be more general than their specialized job counterparts (and they still are in 2.0; as you can equip cross-class abilities on a lancer than a dragoon). HOWEVER, all the solo content in this game is being created with the jobs in mind now so its pretty easy and cross-classing healing spells on lancer instead of just going DRG, is pointless, as its better and more effective to just be a DRG and dps the hell out of a mob before it becomes a problem, and use Blood Bath or Second Wind if you have to.

Sooo for whatever reason there are some players out there who still think class > job when doing content (I cannot speak to their logic as it doesn't make sense from a numbers perspective but none-the-less they are out there). All it does do is cripple parties, like mentioned in the OP; wherein healer pulls hate because the tank doesn't have the appropriate tanking abilities because they haven't equipped the job stone. Etc Etc.

Also, I thought I read somewhere that they were considering phasing out classes completely and going to a job structure?

I've encountered this as well, in WoD. There was a Marauder who insisted upon being main tank (by way of rushing ahead and forcing the issue). He couldn't do it, which led to many...complications, that run.

Base classes are utterly pointless past level 30. I've heard the idea that they're to improve solo play but...honestly I didn't even *discover* that I could remove my job crystal without switching to a new base class for a long time and suffice to say I've never had any trouble in solo content, at all. The only important cross-class skills are the one you can use as your job. Invigorate is great at any level, but why would I bother with crap-power CNJ spells as a pugilist instead of just getting the extra raw power from MNK and being smart about how I fight? I feel like this is one of those things that sounded good on paper but no one thought about the final result.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

My guess is either they were bots or clueless people that don't want to admit or acknowledge they have no idea what they are doing. My money is probably on the latter as I have run into such people that got verbally abusive with me when I suggested that they should really go back and do class quests and unlock their jobs if they are past lvl 30.

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Not bots. Gil-farming bots always queue together, usually it's a party of 4 BLMs.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

My guess is either they were bots or clueless people that don't want to admit or acknowledge they have no idea what they are doing. My money is probably on the latter as I have run into such people that got verbally abusive with me when I suggested that they should really go back and do class quests and unlock their jobs if they are past lvl 30.

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As much as I hate seeing these people as well. The more common reason is their dps is higher. Way higher in fact. That is why in pvp to stop people from coming as classes instead of jobs they had to give an across the board buff to job damage. It is the same reason you see wars wearing all str gear and no tanks wanting to tank in Crystal Tower. They want to be dps but want the que of a tank. I expect it to be 10 times worse when we see Dark Knights. "I'm a dps, just silly SE makes me tank /emo."

^
I've actually dealt with a solo queued botted tank in a dungeon before. All they did was run around erratically in a semi-random pattern until they got agro on something and then just auto-attacked until they or the mob died and then rinse repeat, so it is possible to see bots in dungeons with you.


^^
Class DPS>Job DPS is not really the case. It is only maybe helpful for burst damage but gimps you for sustained damage and overall dps. This made it only viable for PvP.
My dps as a PLD far surpasses anything I could do as a GLD, simply because of Sword Oath. Same with MNK because of Fists of Fire. Every job is better than their class counter parts in pretty much every way, the only thing you gain by staying a class is more freedom to cross-class skills but the job skills you are losing out on are way better than anything from cross-class.

As for tanks wearing STR gear, that is not necessarily a bad thing if you have more than enough HP for the content which a lot of tanks do since many out gear the content by a large margin.

While doing a book for my blm, I was unfortunate enough to run into this. We simply kicked the tank after he told us he "doesn't need a job to tank". It's a gld, with no tank stance, so you can see our frustration. After kicking him, I told the rest of them that I would be back as tank, forfeited my dps queue and chance to finish my book, I came back in as tank, since those are usually hard to Come by, and we beat it.

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

As much as I hate seeing these people as well. The more common reason is their dps is higher. Way higher in fact. That is why in pvp to stop people from coming as classes instead of jobs they had to give an across the board buff to job damage. It is the same reason you see wars wearing all str gear and no tanks wanting to tank in Crystal Tower. They want to be dps but want the que of a tank. I expect it to be 10 times worse when we see Dark Knights. "I'm a dps, just silly SE makes me tank /emo."

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Few things:

1.) Only MRD gains any DPS from Job -> Class, and it's not exactly a massive amount.
2.) Tanks wearing STR gear and tanks not wanting to tank don't necessarily go hand in hand. I wear a full STR set in any CT/ST/WoD run I do and I'm usually the only one who will tank things. It's just silly to have 10k+ HP in content that doesn't require nearly that amount.
3.) I dunno if it's actually tanks wanting to play their tank job as DPS or not. Sometimes it is, but most of the time I see it it's just tanks being lazy/not wanting to bother with having responsibility outside of doing their rotation. This usually only happens in CT stuff though, I've never seen it happen in any SCoB turn I've queued for, even as DPS.

Ony time the class system worked was in pvp lol
Other than that, why just why.

Saw this thread and did high level roulette as a L50 gladiator (got lost city of amdapor) and got 3 commends at the end #gladlife

Screenshots or it didn't happen. Golden rule of the internet.

First screenshot shows 3 commends
Second screenshot shows combat log using cross skills only available to gladiator as we defeated the boss.

http://i.imgur.com/sZ9YyJB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YgdTfpB.jpg

From what I understand, they're not phasing classes out and will probably revisit them in a future expansion. 3.0's jobs aren't the 'way of the future;' they're just being called 'Extra Jobs.' I'm guessing this is a band-aid while they figure out how to fix the existing class/job armory system.

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

From what I understand, they're not phasing classes out and will probably revisit them in a future expansion. 3.0's jobs aren't the 'way of the future;' they're just being called 'Extra Jobs.' I'm guessing this is a band-aid while they figure out how to fix the existing class/job armory system.

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They'll probably be able to come back to it once the level cap is expanded beyond 60 and classes actually have enough skills to be able to blend into another role.
Cuz another problem is viability: In order to make the additional jobs matter, they would need to find a role completely distinct from the other job with its own unique abilities.
A few of them...just kinda don't have anywhere to go. Marauder could theoretically split into Berserker, and Archer could split into Ranger, but then you have the conjurer problem: While MRD and GLD could be segued into a DPS job pretty easily, CNJ has primarily heals as class abilities, limiting their options in a big way.
There's also the problem that adding new jobs wouldn't give players anything new to do except the quests. You'd suddenly have hundreds or thousands of new, say, Rangers who have absolutely no idea how to use their abilities since they just speed ran the job quests and *presto* level 50 with no work.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

Not bots. Gil-farming bots always queue together, usually it's a party of 4 BLMs.

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There are other kinds of bots. There's been multiple instances where I've had a tank bot in a DF dungeon run. They basically just run ahead doing a terrible job, or follow the party and then engage mobs that are near enough. I'm guessing these bots are meant to level up mostly, instead of making gil.

Not having a new player tag doesn't mean they're not a "new" player (if that makes any sense...) I think the tag disappears after 40 hours playtime or something like that, and if you messed around a lot and swapped classes a few times you could probably manage that before you even hit 30. Maybe he did that and just never bothered picking up his job quest, or just couldn't be bothered picking up and levelling the necessary subclass (personally I'm not looking forward to hitting 30 on my gladiator and having to learn how to be a smelly wizard just to continue...)

Duty Finder, Savage Mode.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Well it can be removed.

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Wouldn't be practical to remove classes, they would have to throw away too much stuff. The whole progression of starting at the class guilds and doing class quests would have to be tampered with.

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Originally Posted by JimboTCB

Not having a new player tag doesn't mean they're not a "new" player (if that makes any sense...) I think the tag disappears after 40 hours

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You can also shut that off manually each time you login.

DFed into T1 and Ultima HM with a level 50 Glad o_O Two diff days, same fella.

In T1, he couldn't hold hate on the spawning ADDs in the ADS fight and wiped a bunch of times. We somehow managed to get through, but then couldn't hold hate at the snakes. we ended up vote abandoning.
In Ultima, had queued with FC mates - one of which was tank. He couldn't grab hate from our FC pali at 3 stacks x.x wipe after wipe... Eventually he did, but I was too busy to notice what out pali did (other than stand there with shield oath off?) to shake off the aggro on himself. I don't think we completed it, though.

I think I had already mindlessly spammed levequests to get CNJ to 50 before they even brought in the job system, but I definitely remember the original job quests were designed with the expectation that you'd find people to join your group in order to complete them. Then I worked on Thm and I had to take the Blm crystal off in order to survive leves by having cure and second wind.

Now if I'm doing solo stuff as Whm, I just throw up cleric stance and maybe call my chocobo. I had both Cnj and Thm at 50 before ARR hit, so I guess I'll actually have to level Thm/Blm again for the first time sincce 2012 once the expansion hits. ;p

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Originally Posted by Saseal

DFed into T1 and Ultima HM with a level 50 Glad o_O Two diff days, same fella.

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You're much nicer than I would have been. As soon as they showed that they couldn't do the job they're in there for (tanking and everything that comes with it), I would've vote kicked them. I don't go into DF to babysit people while they goof off. Yes they pay their sub so they can play the game their way, but so do the other seven people in the party. It's patently unfair to impose on them in that way just so you can have some giggles. You can make an argument for it in single tank fights (even then who's to guarantee the other tank will be any more capable of tanking?) but in duties like Ultima where you have a forced tank swap, that's utterly ridiculous. :|

If you wanna queue for duties with no soul crystals, get seven buddies and do it together. It's kinda fun.

Warriors used to unequip their Soul Crystals back in LotA because you didn't need two tanks for ANY of the fights. It was all literally one tank (at most) and this was a GREAT way to increase DPS for those who were offtanking as Warrior.

It's been a bit less popular recently but I wouldn't be surprised if the Gladiator is playing around with fufilling his roll and/or a roll as an offtank as a Gladiator instead of being a full-time PLD. but I think PLD's do more DPS than Gladiators do because of Sword Oath, while Warrior's can't do that because all we get is lame-o defiance :P

Nah you have higher DPS as PLD > Sword Oath than GLD.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Nah you have higher DPS as PLD > Sword Oath than GLD.

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Which is what I said. :P

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Originally Posted by kyuven

There's also the problem that adding new jobs wouldn't give players anything new to do except the quests. You'd suddenly have hundreds or thousands of new, say, Rangers who have absolutely no idea how to use their abilities since they just speed ran the job quests and *presto* level 50 with no work.

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This is where the 'Extra Jobs' experiment could really help. Imagine if new jobs were tied to existing classes for purposes of unlocking, etc, but had their own leveling progression. So you get Beserker, but it starts at level 30 and you have to level it up from there. (this is how it should have been for SCH/SMN, imho)

I ran into one once while in Stonevigil doing a page for Dragoon. Needless to say I had to swap some abilities and slow dodge/tank all the way through the boss. These are the people who advertise fast leveling for your chars. They hop on the account, grind it to 50 one way or another, spam roulette and get paid. They don't do quests, or anything job related other than getting to cap. They never talk, and use every single cool down/buff at once before running into the boss. They are just geared for the level requirement if needed and are really bad with anything beyond, Thousand Maws. The only up side is if the party lucked out on jobs of everyone else. It'll put to test the healer's overall skill and every ones ability to kite old school and manage hate around a gimp third leg. There will be dying but its better than waiting in DF on dps.

I can see the idea of Classes as a branching tree that grants access to jobs and then advance jobs based on level and combination of classes. But since Jobs currently share the same level and stats as class It defeats the concept especially on Acn> Smn/Sch. At best it's becomes the Red Mage of the game by trying to split Int and Mnd stats between both Healer and Mage jobs.

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

This is where the 'Extra Jobs' experiment could really help. Imagine if new jobs were tied to existing classes for purposes of unlocking, etc, but had their own leveling progression. So you get Beserker, but it starts at level 30 and you have to level it up from there. (this is how it should have been for SCH/SMN, imho)

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Herein lies the problem, though: If you do that, then why wire the quests to job progression and separate them, which creates more unnecessary work than just making new jobs completely separate?
If you make them separate, you have more range for balancing them and aren't tied to the base class's skills when devising new ones.
They basically DID take your idea, since the new jobs apparently require at least one class (ANY class, though) at 50 to unlock them, and they start from lvl 1 again. The only difference is they have their own equipment and weapon, and aren't tied to any other class' skills, because it's actually easier to take a new set of skills and balance them than it is to take an existing set of skills and create a few new ones that are different enough to distinguish it. Moreover, it lets them give the new jobs their own identity without cribbing off another one, which is kind of important for a new expansion.
Further, it also allows people who may not have that much interest in certain other classes immediate access to the new one without slogging through one them don't like. For example, a LOT of people want to play DRK, but dislike the playstyle of PLD and WAR. Requiring MRD or GLD to unlock it would alienate those players.

I really do wish they'd have just converted the classes to something like jobs to begin with. Change up for example Bard a little to make it more support focused and made Archer into a pure DPS class. Gladiator less tank-like and a bit more DPS focused. Marauder would be closer to AoE DPS and less tank as well. It'd take a lot of reworking as stands of course, like what to do between Thaumaturge and Conjurer who are essentially just weaker variations of their advanced jobs.