Final Smash Fantasy: Melee XIV

So, I kinda like reading threads about melee capacities and stuff, and since there's 3615 thread about SMN/BLM to overkill you for days, I want this thread to be about everything melee related. Let's call it a Melee Job General thread. So you can discuss anything like DPS, Utility, Rotations, Comparisons against other melee jobs, positional, and most of all, for new people to this game, don't hesitate asking question concerning any of the three melee jobs.

So, any of you guys think Melee are too op in this game, or think it's well balanced against ranged dps who seem to not appreciate the fact that we are getting more dps than them?

Melee have the disadvantage of, well, having to stand right next to whatever they're attacking, so it makes sense for them to have better DPS to even that out. Fights are usually designed around a mixed party composition (imagine trying to take four melee into T13; you can pick straws to choose people who have to move away for Megaflare), so it's pretty balanced.

No melee aren't op at all.

There's various pros and cons for both melee and ranged classes.
Even in PvP you see balance between melee and ranged with ranged classes being able to CC someone from afar and tear them up, but at the same time a melee can rush a target and CC them and deal out some serious burst to blow someone up.

In PvE there's a lot of AoEs that ranged dps simply don't have to deal with, but that can go the other way too with some AoEs only targeting ranged.

You can clear Final Coil with 4 melee. The jobs aren't imbalanced–the fights are. Granted though, if we merge a little realism into this, a Monk shouldn't be top DPS.

Since we are talking about melee do SMN ifrit count for that?

Top-tier melees can do 60-100 dps more than BRD, SMN, and BLM cause FCOB (including T8) is more melee-friendly. Other than that, there are some disadvantage to other content where melee dps don't really shine too much. So it's just really based on content.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

You can clear Final Coil with 4 melee. The jobs aren't imbalanced–the fights are. Granted though, if we merge a little realism into this, a Monk shouldn't be top DPS.

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There's the classic argument for this of "the Monk isn't pushing the deeps by hitting hard, they're pushing it by hitting many many times very fast", but did you notice how this directly translates into the attack animations? Monks have more animations that hit multiple times than any other class, I believe.

Bootshine: 4 hits
Twin Snakes: 2 for one
Dragon Kick: I think this hits twice, but the breakdance could be confusing
Demolish: 5 hits

There's also the element of hitting pressure points, ala Touch of Death, but realism really does falter when one considers using such things against robots. Yo, Avatar! I'm going to make your... organs fail? Huh?

You want to have some sort of class synergy to be able to boost the entire performance of the party; such as DRG and BRD, BRD and casters, BRD and melee, etc etc. Honestly "being melee" doesn't really justify being top dps because they're hitting those numbers anyway despite dealing with AoEs and positioning... So maybe stack our dps with the highest dps classes.

The thing is, people don't do that. They have a bard to maximize melee dps uptime, BLM for more control over add dps, opting to take a DRG/NIN over a double monk set up for more synergy (trick attack and disembowel). You could do raid content with 4 melee, just not ideal. Same with having a bard to an extent; it's nice to have a bard for paeon or foe for the blm, but double bard is redundant and doesn't contribute much.

On the same end, you don't want a single class to be able to provide a bunch of utility that essentially mandates a slot (BRD when they had 10% damage debuff on RoD), or be so underwhelmingly weak that they have no place in content (DRG in 2.4 and now SMNs)

Melee is pretty well balanced at the moment. The only reason that DPS gaps are so huge between melee and ranged right now is due to the current FCoB mechanics. All fights are VERY melee friendly, causing 2 melee compositions to be the norm. High up time on the boss, and virtually no knockback abilities that affect melee only are common features in all FCoB fights. Melee is strong right now, but it has nothing to do with balance, just mechanics.

With the exception of SMN, all other classes are in a decent place now and are competitive in terms of placement in FCoB parties.

I see your opinions, and I still wonder why rangee whine about the gap then. Anyway, do you guys also think it'll be the same in Alexander, or the normal compo will change to three ranged one melee? I wouldn't be surprise to be honest, unless people find again a way to get the melee to have as much uptime as they can. As a melee dps, I don't mind having melee jobs to shine obviously.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

You can clear Final Coil with 4 melee. The jobs aren't imbalanced–the fights are. Granted though, if we merge a little realism into this, a Monk shouldn't be top DPS.

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Then who should be?

Feels like that depends on the definition of "realism" Lore or job mechanics?

Lore-wise a group of dragoons should be able to take down twintania and bahamut on their own or something.
In terms of job mechanics:

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Originally Posted by Donjo

There's the classic argument for this of "the Monk isn't pushing the deeps by hitting hard, they're pushing it by hitting many many times very fast", but did you notice how this directly translates into the attack animations? Monks have more animations that hit multiple times than any other class, I believe.

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Also "realism" is a sketchy term to use in a fantasy based rpg with mages that can cast giant flaming balls of death and light.

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Originally Posted by Blueskyy

Then who should be?

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If we were to consider blms magic realism, the blm.

Followed by drg and nin probably.

I honestly hope that they do a better job of balancing the mechanics for Alexander. Assuming it will be similar to coils and be a series of 4-5 fights, they should try and have at least 2 of them be more favorable for ranged DPS. The idea of 4 fights ALL being melee favored kind of boggles me. I mean, its not like they didn't have 4 separate instances to design bosses in. It would've been pretty easy to design more ranged favored fights.

The combination of poor gear scaling, poor stat distribution, and melee favored FCoB mechanics is what drove SMN out of the meta. Let's not repeat that mistake again.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

I honestly hope that they do a better job of balancing the mechanics for Alexander. Assuming it will be similar to coils and be a series of 4-5 fights, they should try and have at least 2 of them be more favorable for ranged DPS. The idea of 4 fights ALL being melee favored kind of boggles me. I mean, its not like they didn't have 4 separate instances to design bosses in. It would've been pretty easy to design more ranged favored fights.

The combination of poor gear scaling, poor stat distribution, and melee favored FCoB mechanics is what drove SMN out of the meta. Let's not repeat that mistake again.

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Why not have encounters that actually doesn't play favorites with any of the DPS roles? Would be nice to have a T9 again.

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Originally Posted by AldricBranchais

Why not have encounters that actually doesn't play favorites with any of the DPS roles? Would be nice to have a T9 again.

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I think it'd be a bit tricky to make encounters like that while keeping it varied. I remember in a reddit interview with Yoshida is that he intended the dungeons/duty to be completible as long as you fill out the role (2 tanks/2healers/2dps) regardless of who those dps, healers or tanks are. It might not be optimal (taking 4 monks, the highest dps class, or two bards), but it can work.

Can't say that for DRG as soon as 2.4 hit, or 2.5 in general for SMN with the itemization. I feel that they need to avoid this first rather than making an encounter being incredibly range/melee friendly (because for all I know, it certainly isn't stopping our monk from toppling my bard's DPS in T9)

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

Feels like that depends on the definition of "realism" Lore or job mechanics?

Lore-wise a group of dragoons should be able to take down twintania and bahamut on their own or something.
In terms of job mechanics:



Also "realism" is a sketchy term to use in a fantasy based rpg with mages that can cast giant flaming balls of death and light.

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We're in a setting where green chickens exist, cat-girls tend to be sluts, midgets and pointy-earred people are pricks, and giants who are jolly pirates. I think realism is pretty much thrown out of the window by the time I mentioned the green chicken.

If you want to play that game though, the "lore" aspect of paladins and bards feel extremely underplayed if anything and I hope that gets fixed up with 3.0 new actions.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

We're in a setting where green chickens exist, cat-girls tend to be sluts, midgets and pointy-earred people are pricks, and giants who are jolly pirates. I think realism is pretty much thrown out of the window by the time I mentioned the green chicken.

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Pretty much, thus the point I was making. Want to take realism into it? Suddenly SCH and SMN dps is useless on a sizable portion of the coils, how are you going to make the organs and lungs of a machine (ADS, dreadnoughts, the avatar, etc) fail?

I thought this thread was going to be about smash bros. After reading the title.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

You can clear Final Coil with 4 melee. The jobs aren't imbalanced–the fights are. Granted though, if we merge a little realism into this, a Monk shouldn't be top DPS.

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That's right. You are completely correct. Gunpowder and mechanized warfare will forever replace our primitive pointed sticks and clenched fists. I expect no less than a 99% Machinist adoption rate.

If you are not already looking forward to it, please do.

I think Skeith's point was that because Monks have such a good utility, they shouldn't also have the best DPS. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

I think Skeith's point was that because Monks have such a good utility, they shouldn't also have the best DPS. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

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The way the current content is, monks are more desirable than monks or dragoons when you compare it against those two. There's so many sources of magic damage going out in FCoB that dragon kick on top of 20% mantra is a godsend.

It's also partially the reason why SMN is so meh; the itemization on most of the caster end-game gear doesn't suit them.