I just did a bunch of goldsmith synths, and found myself using 2 manipulations instead of a master's mend II quite often.
Positives:
- it's an extra step, an extra shot at ToT, chance to extend the synth to get in a 3rd CZ
- it's versatile, you don't need to be at 10/20 durability, which can save a step of SHII
- it can keep you from capping out CP if you get a lot of ToT procs early
Negative:
- it costs 16 more CP
When I had SHII wear off at 10/20 durability, I would use MMII. But since I don't need reclaim anymore, I'm putting Manipulation in its spot. Just something to think about for my fellow crafters.
Manipulation vs MMII
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01-27-2015, 11:38 AMStouterTaruManipulation vs MMII
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01-27-2015, 11:02 PMFlipside101
Being a GSM yes it's a very handy skill to use. However Manipulation competes for a cross-class slot on other classes - but this depends highly on your rotation and your stats, so my point could be moot if you don't use Inno/Inge2/RS/Reclaim (any 1 or 2 of these), and the amount of CP you need (referring to the minimum # of ToT procs) to actually finish the craft.
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01-28-2015, 03:28 AMMishini_DracotoQuote:
Originally Posted by StouterTaru
Really, it's a 16 tp cost, for a 25% to get an extra 4 CP. or a 75% to just lose 16TP.
Unless you are trying to rack up your total step count, I don't really see this as advantageous. If you've been getting lucky with RNG, then great.
I suppose if you are like me, don't don't want to waste SH2 actions, thereby optimizing your CP spent on SH, then for example you use SH2, ToT, HT, TOT, HT, TOT, You are still @ 60 Durability, and no SH2. So you could pop Manipulation, and keep going. I can see how this would be a smart strategy early on in the synth. (Because in order for it to be applicable, you've already gotten a lot of Good procs, and are full on CP anyway or close to, so the CP cost it also protecting you from wasting further good procs)
Interesting. I'll give this some more thought. The more I think about my argument the more I agree with you lol. I wouldn't say as a set rotation, but as I said, aespecially early on in the since if you are blessed with lots of good procs. -
01-28-2015, 03:29 AMStouterTaru
BB, INGII, PbP, RS, Inno, Mani, CSII, ToT, CZ, SHII, Hasty
Mani dropped for LTW, WN added to ARM/GSM/ALC/CUL
There's no reason to keep reclaim after you've completed your 4 star books. 4 ToT by step 33 is all you need to get 3 Manipulations off and still have GS>Inno>(CSII fish)/BB. -
01-28-2015, 03:33 AMStouterTaruIt's also one less step you need to get that 3rd CZ, one extra step of SHII (using it between SHII up time instead of MMII in the middle), and if you have 3 ToT procs by the time you reach 60 durability you are either using Basic Touch or capped on CP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto
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01-28-2015, 03:36 AMMishini_DracotoBecause if you've gone a whole Wootz Bhuj synth and only gotten one good condition, don't bother reclaiming, because it'll fail anyway? *sob*Quote:
Originally Posted by StouterTaru
(this happened) -
01-28-2015, 05:31 AMStouterTaruIt's all about mass production, make enough mats that you can use all HQ on stuff like the 110 weapons, and spread around the NQ to easier synths. For the rare NQ, slap a few junk materia on it and do a few expert runs to turn it into materia. Loss of materials is always a loss, NQ isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto
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01-28-2015, 05:45 AMRiceisNiceEven if you used HQ materials, if you got only one good condition the entire craft, it ain't happening. And you're making a weapon at this point, where it s HQ or gtfo unless its for glamour (which probably is, 110 weapons have lower weapon damage which is the best stat for most classes).Quote:
Originally Posted by StouterTaru
That being said, it's really based on what cards you're dealt with. If you haven't gotten any TotT procs, the increased CP cost is going to hurt you in the long run that an extra tick of CZ won't save you. Not to mention manipulation will compete with other cross skills when you're BSM and LTW.
If in the golden world where I cap my CP before using my second CZ, I'd just pop a basic touch with SHII active. -
01-28-2015, 06:50 AMStouterTaruAll HQ mats starts you at ~1500 quality, that's a huge jump. 1 ToT proc is enough to get you a Mani and a MMII, that's 13 tries to land two RS and as many hasties as you can, although it does mean skipping the Innovation at the end. Just landing 8 HT is enough to get you up over 50%. And like I said, spiritbond it if you NQ, or find someone who will.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
And like I said above, MMII if SHII wears on 10/20 durability, which it will if you only have 1 ToT proc, either as the first durability gain or the 2nd, so the CP loss would be a moot point.
What extra skill do you have instead of INGII, Reclaim? -
01-28-2015, 07:38 AMRiceisNiceI've been working with 360~ or so CP up until now, and even then I prefer MMII when I have enough CP to spare it (otherwise, i can do MMII + manip without any ToT procs.Quote:
Originally Posted by StouterTaru
Getting 8 HTs would be enough, yes. However, we're looking at someone that got 1 good condition, that'd at the most would be able to fit MMII and manip for 9 extra steps on top of the 8 starter ones. Put aside 5 steps to finish the craft (assuming he has 453 craftsmanship), you have 12 hasty touches and well... shit can happen. You want to start with all HQ materials when possible, but this isn't the case when you're making the baseline materials like platinum ingot (which can only get 400 starting quality). Assuming worse cases, your highest starting quality would be around 400-600 from the HQ'd 3 star materials.
I take manipulation over ingenuity II. It's still nice to have in the event that you don't have enough CP to spare for MMII and still have enough left over for a BB finisher. But my stance is that it's not something I'd use over MMII when the latter is available. -
01-28-2015, 08:01 AMStouterTaru
You said you wouldn't have it as BSM due to cross class skills, what other 10 do you have?
I have no issues getting HQ mats at least 80% of the time from full NQ, that's where the mass production comes in. If you just make enough for one synth, you can get screwed over, but if you make extras you can use the NQ mats on other synths.
It's only 11 hasty touches, you forgot to add in the BB, and that's assuming you hit both RS, hence the 13 steps for 2xRS + HT. -
01-28-2015, 08:15 AMRiceisNice
BSM for 3★: Manip, BB, SHII, CSII, RS, Inno, CZ, TotT, reclaim, HT.
4★, i swap out manip with PbP. I'm at enough craftsmanship that I can finish my 3★ crafts with 3 RS and 1 CSII. As far as BSM is concerned though, I only get to do high profile, non-material crafts for this (artisan tools) with a fairly diluted quality pool (cant remember but I think it was 600 for the offhand tools) that I'd want a contingency plan for it. If it was material crafting then I'd agree with you, and thats what I do; i'd delegate the NQ stuff toward furnishings or glamour crafting. -
01-29-2015, 12:41 PMgiantslayer
I usually look at manipulation in comparison with MM1, which costs 4 more CP. Saving 4 CP is nice and I wouldn't mind having it at my disposal, but on most classes my cross class slots have more important skills to fill.
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01-31-2015, 07:34 AMdspguyFor 4-star, my rotation can "finish" with 0 ToT and I get at least a GS+BB at the end. If I'm remembering this right, with no ToT, I wind up with 59CP with 25 durability, worst case scenario. So I can either choose to reclaim or GS+(bait)+BB. Reclaim is 90%. And depending on what my HQ% would if BB lands, 90% on that chance. With 1 ToT, I can either SH1 my BB for 100% chance to land. Or BB/Inn. And those are worst-case scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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02-03-2015, 06:38 AMMishini_Dracotoyour rotation must also no include Rapid Synth to ensure this guarantee.Quote:
Originally Posted by dspguy
At any rate, I can concede Stouter's original response to mine. He would use all HQ Mats. his rotation is clearly built in a way where he will always make sure the snth is completed. By definition, this means he's focusing less on Quality than some of us. In his scenario, that's acceptable, as he stated, he will use NQ stuff on items that are easier to synth, and if he NQ's final product he Spirit Binds and converts.
It's good advice. To a certain extent, I wonder if maybe I should do the same thing. My biggest problem is that I don't have the materials to do such large quantity snthesis as he must be doing to end up ahead. I have been taking advantage of really cheap materials. It feels like people are only buing Terminus putty and Scheelite. . . the other mats of same tier are dirt cheap. The Allagan mats are also expensive on Ultros atm. So i'm buying up all the cheap mats, I'll use em when I need to. *Cough* like crafting my Lucis. -
02-08-2015, 06:48 AMdspguyIt has RS. There are many points where I can take ToT anyway, but I like the idea of having enough CP to finish the synth regardless of the # of ToT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto