6 men dungeon

Englis is not my main, so apologies for the mistakes...

Regarding this post, i wish SE make the endgame content 6 men rather then 8.

The obvious reason is the long queue DPS have to wait. 1 tank, 1 healer and 4 DPS.. That will make the queue A LOT shorter for DPS. I hear you... 1 tank means no share tanking. How about making some DPS OT ? Could be melee using a skill that allow them to boost their evasion or DEF. To be fair, having to use this special skill would lower their offensive radically.

1 healer would mean making other jobs more supportive on the heals. I would create a song from BRD that could give a skill comparable to medica. I would also make BLM have raise.

The other reason why i wish a 6 men content is that i usually can gather 5-6 men with ease for a static or in party finder.. but it seems getting the last 2 spot is hardest and makes it long.


What do you guys think ?

No. The entire game would have to be redesigned.

The obvious solution to dps queues is to queue on tank or healer instead.

Why not 3 man dungeons? or 7? or 5? People always suggest some arbitrary number for X man dungeons for "easing DPS queue times", but it's always gonna be the same result; unless you got more people lining up as a healer or tank, you could have 100 DPS sitting and twiddling their thumbs until that healer or tank finally signs up.

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Originally Posted by ZaaZaa

, i wish SE make the endgame content 6 men rather then 8.

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Make that "6 person content in addition to 8 person content" and I'll get behind you. I've played mmos with 2 person content lol and they were pretty darn fun.

6 man dungeon sounds so much better.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

No. The entire game would have to be redesigned.

The obvious solution to dps queues is to queue on tank or healer instead.

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I would suggest to make this radical change in next patches.. but what is already designed to stay like that.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Why not 3 man dungeons? or 7? or 5? People always suggest some arbitrary number for X man dungeons for "easing DPS queue times", but it's always gonna be the same result; unless you got more people lining up as a healer or tank, you could have 100 DPS sitting and twiddling their thumbs until that healer or tank finally signs up.

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I disagree. It's all about the ratio tanks/healers vs DPS. If you make 6 men dungoen, then the usual second tank would have to queue in another group of 4 DPS. It adds up fastly... let's say 20 tanks are available to raid, they all queue up for T9. That's 10 groups of 40 DPS... Now imagine only 1 tank is needed... so 10 tanks for the same 40 DPS... the other 10 tanks will have to queue up and reaches the other DPS waiting in line.. That's an extra 40 DPS.

The only real issue i am finding in 6 men dungoen is the loot. Tanks and healers would get gear faster then the rest and that's quite unfair. A solution to that is the tank and healer gear would statistically drop less then the DPS, who would get a boost. I think that could work.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

No. The entire game would have to be redesigned.

The obvious solution to dps queues is to queue on tank or healer instead.

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3.0 is getting some redesign elements, and they have already pulled off 1 tank 8 player parties in ST, i'm sure with new jobs 6 player parties would be plausible.

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Originally Posted by ZaaZaa

I disagree. It's all about the ratio tanks/healers vs DPS. If you make 6 men dungoen, then the usual second tank would have to queue in another group of 4 DPS. It adds up fastly... let's say 20 tanks are available to raid, they all queue up for T9. That's 10 groups of 40 DPS... Now imagine only 1 tank is needed... so 10 tanks for the same 40 DPS... the other 10 tanks will have to queue up and reaches the other DPS waiting in line.. That's an extra 40 DPS.

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You just revealed the problem with your own solution. There are not enough Healers and Tanks to go around. Reducing the ammount of DPS per cue will solve nothing. We need more Tank Classes and Healer Classes to ballence out the fact that there are two tank classes and two healer classes when compaired to the 6 diffrent DPS jobs.

Like wise, because there are so many more dps jobs there are also alot more people playing DPS which tend to be the only thing left to level after the carrier tank and carrier Healers get their WARs,PLDs, WHMs, and SCHs to 50. There is a over all imbalence in DPS to anything else ratio. THERE is the problem. Making 6 man dungeons would only cut DPS levels in half and still do nothing to make more tanks and healers show up.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

3.0 is getting some redesign elements, and they have already pulled off 1 tank 8 player parties in ST, i'm sure with new jobs 6 player parties would be plausible.

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Um.......... nope. Not happening. This thread is just more dps whining that the most popular archetype is the one with seemingly zero responsibility and expectations (which is false).

Kaiser, the problem is people don't WANT to roll as a healer/tank. You can give all the incentives you want, but the novelties will wear off and if people don't want to go something besides DPS, then you can't exactly force them to. We can only hope Dark Knight and Astrologian are interesting enough for people to stick with them.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Kaiser, the problem is people don't WANT to roll as a healer/tank. You can give all the incentives you want, but the novelties will wear off and if people don't want to go something besides DPS, then you can't exactly force them to. We can only hope Dark Knight and Astrologian are interesting enough for people to stick with them.

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Yes, this is the source of the imbalence in a way. Tanking and Healing is not a simple task (Though as a carieer DPS my self I'm not saying DPS is easy). I say it could add some more balence since there are plenty of people who will pla ya new class to 50 for the sake of having all 50s (Which is why I'm lvling BLM which I ROYALY Hate playing as). But some of those people will turn out to love the class and play it more regularly. All in all I have 4 favorite classes Dragoon (My main class) Paladin (Though I'm looking forward to Dark Knight), Bard (As I'm also an Archer IRL), and Summoner (Gotta love bending primals to your will). But there are people who WILL NEVER play as a tank or healer simply because they only like one class. But if there was more to pick from they may change their mind. I wasn't liking the looks of Rouge and Ninja until I gave them a shot. I also use to see Monks and White Mages as squishy punching backs till I played them my self and saw how bad ass they could be. But we eventually come to the paradox "You can't please eevery body". If they had wanted too they could have made it where your job was compleatly irrelevent. (Tanking Bards? Not on my watch! <Hallowed Ground> <Provokes then flash spanm>) It's a full time job just to filter what's a legit problem and who's just whineing because they secretly suck.
but any way, more tanks and healers would help, but ultimatly nothing will fix it because Players use, abuse, and at times down right ignore the system. That's the whole reason Ninjas were so OP was because they were being played in a way that wasn't expected. So most of the problems in the game are entirely the fault of the players. And trying to change a way a person plays an mmo is like trying to change the way a culture practices religion, aka compleatly impossible.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

3.0 is getting some redesign elements, and they have already pulled off 1 tank 8 player parties in ST, i'm sure with new jobs 6 player parties would be plausible.

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That would be nice. If enough people want it, I don't see why they wouldn't consider it :)

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

You just revealed the problem with your own solution. There are not enough Healers and Tanks to go around. (...) Making 6 man dungeons would only cut DPS levels in half and still do nothing to make more tanks and healers show up.

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Yes, adding healer and tank classes would help, but ultimately, as another person said, people are not interested to play the role, so it's not about the class. But i still keep my position. Again, it's all about the ratio and i don't understand why you seem discrupted with this concept. Allow me to amplify. Imagine a 99 men raid with 1 healer, 1 tank and 97 DPS. Do you honestly think tanks would get instant queue ? OF course not. We would see DPS having instant queue.

Well they'd still get instant queues simply because there's so few tanks playing that they can fill those spots that no one else wants to fill.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Well they'd still get instant queues simply because there's so few tanks playing that they can fill those spots that no one else wants to fill.

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Right but the idea is not getting ALL jobs instant queue, because that is simply impossible. The idea is to reduce the waitig time for DPS with some incentitive. The 4500 gils reward is a joke, let's face it. Now a 6 men dungoen will greatly reduce the waiting time in queue for DPS and after that, if DPS still QQ on a 20 min waiting queue, well, that's their problem.

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Originally Posted by ZaaZaa

Right but the idea is not getting ALL jobs instant queue, because that is simply impossible. The idea is to reduce the waitig time for DPS with some incentitive. The 4500 gils reward is a joke, let's face it. Now a 6 men dungoen will greatly reduce the waiting time in queue for DPS and after that, if DPS still QQ on a 20 min waiting queue, well, that's their problem.

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Don't get me wrong ZaaZaa, I'd love the DPS cues to go down too. But I'm just not seeing how this in particular is a solution. At best it would do nothing to fix it at all and at worst it could dammage it worse than ever. There NEEDS to be a solution but it's much more complicated than Add a Job or Reduce/Increese the Cue Numbers. The core problem is "Why are there so many more DPS Players" which is a question that can't be answered by players and maybe not even the devs them selves. In 1.0 there was the "Fatuige System" where you could only level one class so much per day before it stoped earning EXP.

The idea was that it'd deture players from using the same class all the time and ultimatly add diversity to the player base. How ever, instead it was one of the greatest mistakes that the privious director did because truly dedicated level grinders like the ones from FF11 could wind up getting ALL classes to that 0 EXP threash hold in one day thus hurting the player base and ultimatly one of the main killing factors for 1.0's Dev team.

So while a solution is needed it needs to be examened carfully as to not make the problem worse. Remember how hard it is to find FATEs and how infrequently some spawn? That was a consequnce of a hasty decition made back during the 1st releise of the "Lightning Strikes" event. And it's been a constant problem since then because of one hasty decition they made 3 months into the games release.

Tank popularity is the key problem, and is caused largely by the human factor. They effectively must be leaders, and if they don't lead well they are berated leading to fewer interested.

Id personally like incentive to keep 2 tanks in parties more often... Nexus was horrendous due to onetankplox mentality. If tanks were more popular, there would be more of them.

Perhaps there could be some sort of wondertwinpowersunite buff if a party has two tank jobs? (probably a pipe dream, still...)

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Tank popularity is the key problem, and is caused largely by the human factor. They effectively must be leaders, and if they don't lead well they are berated leading to fewer interested.

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You could be on to something. Tanks are rare because of how much people mistreat the ones that are in the game. I certanly don't like it when a DPS critisizes how I tank and I wind up thinking "Ok, you tank the pulls while I suck at DPSing, how does that sound?" Thus the DPS vs Tank hatred. Then Healers start to be rare because they are the 1st to get blamed if ANYTHING happenes. It dosn't matter that the party died from Megaflair's one shot kill because aparently a healer that dosn't suck can heal the entier party even though every one is dead. This the Healer vs DPS hatred and the Tank vs Healer conflicts.

People don't want those positions because they arn't fun. And they arn't fun because of how poorly they get treated. It causes the thinking "I can get yelled at and critisized IRL for free, why am I going to pay 12.99 USD a month to get the same treatment online?"

I can vouch for that. I main as a healer and the moment I slip, I get hate thrown at me with everyone telling me how to do my job. If a tank gets too ballsy with the large pulls and dies, I get blamed for not keeping the tank alive. As a WHM, I have to make snap decisions in an ever changing situation, which also means I have to decide who I have to top off and who has to bite the dust. I bet most people roll as DPS because they can just run around and hit things and the only time they will get called out is if they either A) keep running into AOEs or B) have extremely low DPS.

No one wants to bear the burden of a healer or tank.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

(...) But I'm just not seeing how this in particular is a solution. At best it would do nothing to fix it at all and at worst it could dammage it worse than ever.

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I just can't get it why reducing, as you said, the cue numbers on DPS wouln't help significantly, and quite frankly, i just can't see how this idea would make it worse. BUT, if i read between the lines, you are saying that if the queue time is reduced for DPS, more healers and tanks might want to re-role a DPS precisely because of that, so then, we are back on square one. I agree, but still...

I also beleive the real problem is making people WANT to play tank/healer roles. The incentives are too weak. Here are a suggestion : how about creating a special ability, a skillchain, between tank and healers to make a super buff on party ? You played FF11, you know what it means. Its fun and rewarding. I wouln't mind a nice haste buff :)

I'm glad you aren't in any way in charge of game design, since you don't think things through properly.

Also, try reading. You keep missing this point: the intrinsic issue with tanks is many players don't want responsibility. If you're bad at dps (outside of coil) stuff just dies slower. If you're bad at tank or healer, people die or have a much rougher time.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I'm glad you aren't in any way in charge of game design, since you don't think things through properly.

Also, try reading. You keep missing this point: the intrinsic issue with tanks is many players don't want responsibility.

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AGain, and AGAIN, even if people don't want to play tanks, making 6 men dugnoens will REDUCE the DPS queue time, and that is a FACT. I never said it was a great solution, just a little improvement.

Another way to make people WANT to tank and heal, would be to adding a skillchain, like in FF11, for healers and tanks only.

But i know what you will say... It will make things worse because skillchain is adding a responsability and those who will miss the skillchains will be pointed as n00bs. Don't forget that MANY players don't play tanks and healers simply because it is a boring job.

Could be skilchains between the 2 tanks for a DEF buff, and a healers skillchain for a haste buff. Just suggestions.

I see both sides of the argument, and I wish to amend my support of 6 player dungeons:I do indeed think that caution must be made going this route. Incentivizing more people to NOT play tank/healer IN ORDER TO play DPS because its easier/more fun seems to undermine the core issue even further, not make the situation better...

I haven't gotten to endgame in FFXIV yet, but 8 sounds like a good number. I remember when WoW raids were 40 man.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

I see both sides of the argument, and I wish to amend my support of 6 player dungeons:I do indeed think that caution must be made going this route. Incentivizing more people to NOT play tank/healer IN ORDER TO play DPS because its easier/more fun seems to undermine the core issue even further, not make the situation better...

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Why can't it be both ? 6 men dungoens BUT also, at the same time, add other incensitives for wanting to play tank/healers. I tought of adding skillchains between tanks or healers or tank/healers... but it doesn't seem very popular, as people are saying adding a mechanic will add a responsability and make people scared even more playing these jobs.

So, we must find something that people would want to play tanks and healers more... something other then adding new jobs (ASL and DK), wich is already a good start...

ST already tried the extra DPS route (5 DPS in instead of 4) and it didn't really make queues any faster; every time I queued up, the long wait was always due to lack of healers and tanks. Changing the core mechanics of the battle system itself for the sake of having shorter wait times for duties is going past the forest and into a landfill. Unless Square decides to abandon the holy trinity, people are just going to have to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by ZaaZaa

AGain, and AGAIN, even if people don't want to play tanks, making 6 men dugnoens will REDUCE the DPS queue time, and that is a FACT. I never said it was a great solution, just a little improvement.

Another way to make people WANT to tank and heal, would be to adding a skillchain, like in FF11, for healers and tanks only.

But i know what you will say... It will make things worse because skillchain is adding a responsability and those who will miss the skillchains will be pointed as n00bs. Don't forget that MANY players don't play tanks and healers simply because it is a boring job.

Could be skilchains between the 2 tanks for a DEF buff, and a healers skillchain for a haste buff. Just suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Also, try reading. You keep missing this point: the intrinsic issue with tanks is many players don't want responsibility. If you're bad at dps (outside of coil) stuff just dies slower. If you're bad at tank or healer, people die or have a much rougher time.

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You really should have taken the 'try reading' part under advisement. Absolutely nothing you have said anywhere at all addresses this issue. This is not unique to FFXIV, this is an issue with MMO in general.

It also won't reduce dps queues.

If you want fast queues, have tank/dps/heal all geared out at 50 and just cycle through them until a queue pops.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

ST already tried the extra DPS route (5 DPS in instead of 4) and it didn't really make queues any faster; every time I queued up, the long wait was always due to lack of healers and tanks.

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Idk, I remember DPS ques being quite fast when ST came out. Especially compared to the the old CT.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

ST already tried the extra DPS route (5 DPS in instead of 4) and it didn't really make queues any faster; every time I queued up, the long wait was always due to lack of healers and tanks. Changing the core mechanics of the battle system itself for the sake of having shorter wait times for duties is going past the forest and into a landfill. Unless Square decides to abandon the holy trinity, people are just going to have to deal with it.

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I could see a difference the first weeks, but sure, soon enough, tanks and healers went "ooh so now DPS time is fast on DPS... i should play my DPs and gear up" ! I still beleive it's faster then CT, maybe not as significant as i tought, but a little is better then none.

But good point there friend.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

You really should have taken the 'try reading' part under advisement. Absolutely nothing you have said anywhere at all addresses this issue. This is not unique to FFXIV, this is an issue with MMO in general.

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Ellatrix, i find you are a little arrogant. You advise me to "read better", but it seems you must follow your own logic.

I did explain well enough the logic behing my idea and if you can't get it, then YOU must read better ? I know it's not unique in FF14, but other games have it worse then some. I never said my idea was the cure for a none wait time for DPS.. all i said was to REDUCE the time.. and again, it would.

IT's simple logic. Stop debating like a 5 yrs old "you are wrong, i am right, but i wont tell you why you are wrong and why i am right. It just is..."

Nothin YOU have said proved my idea wrong and wouln't work. Now shush or do your homework.

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Originally Posted by ZaaZaa

all i said was to REDUCE the time.. and again, it would..

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Unless it is paired with added incentives to tank and heal, unfortunately... it very likely will make things worse.

We need to focus on what those would be, as your 'solution' is only half the battle, if that.

Thing is ZaaZaa, you havn't even come up with a short term solution. Lets re-examin your idea.

Reducing DPS to 6 vs 8. This reduces the amount of DPS needed but still does not adress the Tank or Healer shortage thus rendering this solution moot.


Adding skill chains will only increese the responcibility of the Tanks and Healers thus making their jobs more dificult and cause inevitable infighting which will cause even less people to play those classes making cue times even longer.

The simple fact is, the slow cue times isn't a DPS problem, it's a Player base problem. No matter how few DPS are required, even if it was just one, untill more players start playing the parts that are missing then this will never be solved. There is no way that DPS numbers could be manipulated to fix this problem because DPS isn't the problem. DPS is the Victem not the problem. If there was a DPS shortage THEN your idea would be the solution. But it will not solve an over saturation of DPS or The Obvious problem of the Healing and Tank shortage.

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Originally Posted by Black91CRX

Idk, I remember DPS ques being quite fast when ST came out. Especially compared to the the old CT.

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Because everyone rushed to play ST when it was new and CT was outdated at that point. ST got a rush again when Sands and Oils of Time became common loot there. Now that everyone has their toys and better ones being out, no one has a reason to run ST or CT unless they want gear for glamour.

The finale of the Crystal Tower is going to go through the same thing. Mark my words.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Because everyone rushed to play ST when it was new and CT was outdated at that point. ST got a rush again when Sands and Oils of Time became common loot there. Now that everyone has their toys and better ones being out, no one has a reason to run ST or CT unless they want gear for glamour.

The finale of the Crystal Tower is going to go through the same thing. Mark my words.

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Agreed. I'll wadger 100 gil on that out come.

no one wants the responsibility of tanking , and to a lesser extent healing.
However increasing the dps in dung/raids would help Q times because the % of players remains the same.
example 5-6 people dung with just more dps. or 9-10 raid with more dps.

However, it should also be a little more dynamic for coil/ex primals.
example add a "support" role slot for raids only, and make it require tp/mana regen (currently only bard, however could easily be ninja with a mana goad or some future class).
This is because It really sucks to get into groups whose only reason for failing is they happen to not get a bard for mana song. (which is currently very specific fights, with lesser geared players but point stands.)

Keep in mind the OP is the same guy who thinks its a good idea to remove the 'Greed' option for loot and only leave 'Need' and 'Pass'. So instead of farming on tank or healer for dps loot, now I'm forced to go dps.

Yea, that really solves tank shortage. I highly recommend spending more than zero seconds thinking about something before posting a new thread, especially when they all contradict each other.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

The finale of the Crystal Tower is going to go through the same thing. Mark my words.

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You could say that about all aging content.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Keep in mind the OP is the same guy who thinks its a good idea to remove the 'Greed' option for loot and only leave 'Need' and 'Pass'. So instead of farming on tank or healer for dps loot, now I'm forced to go dps.

Yea, that really solves tank shortage. I highly recommend spending more than zero seconds thinking about something before posting a new thread, especially when they all contradict each other.

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You noticed that too? ZaaZaa literally made two more posts trying to gain attention for two of the ideas that we (The REAL player comunity) have already shot down as poor ideas on here. Sounds like ZaaZaa is either trying to be a Resident Troll or should just go back to Vana'diel which they clearly miss so much.