Is it possible that Ninja will do more dps than Monk?

The reason why I say this is because I've been looking at Ninja skills and they seem pretty powerful. But then again we won't know until in-game.

They'll have the same derp as a Dragoon, so no I don't think they will beat Monks :P. Monks have to work the hardest so hopefully they will remain king.

Anything putting out more ST DPS than a MNK will probably get nerfed, so let's hope not :P

Doubt it since from skills we've seen, ninja will have better aoe options than mnk currently has. As to their various buffs increasing damage by 20% and their attack speed buff, I'd guess they will be more similar to bards, low sustained dps but with ability to spike for super high amounts.

I personally think that the Ninja will be the first melee class to have amazing aoe capability due to it's Ninjutsu abilities. While I highly doubt that Ninjas will out-dps Monks in perfect conditions, I do believe that they will probably have extremely high burst damage that either rivals or bests that of the Dragoon with the downfall that they probably won't have great sustained damage.

Taking a quick glance at the job itself, it's very much single-target, kill-it-as-fast-as-you-can styled gameplay. Ninja will probably be good in short fights or speedruns while Monk will thrive in the long haul.

And, as always, if a person is bad at the job, they won't do well. Both jobs, it seems, will require a bit of thought to work out, and there is currently no faceroll, easy DPS class in the game so far (yes, even DRG has thought put into its rotations). I don't think Monks will be sitting on the sidelines.

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Originally Posted by The_Last_Dragoon

I personally think that the Ninja will be the first melee class to have amazing aoe capability due to it's Ninjutsu abilities.

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Eh what? MNK and DRG have great AoE Capabilities, sure it isn't as good as BLM or BRD but a MNK/DRG won't be far behind if they know how to use their skills properly.

Their ability to increase party damage on the mob by 10% will make them highly desirable, regardless.

Ninja will increase the DD of monks with TA.

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Originally Posted by Destinova

Ninja will increase the DD of monks with TA.

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Trick Attack lowers the target's damage taken across the board, not just Monk output.

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Originally Posted by Decrith

Eh what? MNK and DRG have great AoE Capabilities, sure it isn't as good as BLM or BRD but a MNK/DRG won't be far behind if they know how to use their skills properly.

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While I agree that DRG has decent aoe capabilities, MNK has by far the worst of all the dps, sure they can pop PB and have 10 seconds of rockbreaker spam with howling fist thrown in, but after that they can only use rockbreaker at end of every combo. On speedruns, I'm lucky if I can pop PB every 3rd-4th pull.

Arm the the destroyer does laughable dmg, you'd need 10+ mobs you're hitting with it to excuse the dps lost from just using single target skills for first two skills of combo. Not to mention you again only get to use it every 3rd move in combo chain if you dont want to lose your stacks, which would lower your dps even more.

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Originally Posted by Parodine

Their ability to increase party damage on the mob by 10% will make them highly desirable, regardless.

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This. Everything this. If NIN are not as high DPS as MNK, they will be highly sought after for their +10% damage buff as it happens every 60 seconds. They will be able to benefit from all of their high damage abilities and keep the MNKs TP up through the use of Goad. Depending on how strong Goad is, they may even replace BRD in some instances... cause while Foes is great for casters, Trick Attack is AMAZEBALLS for literally everyone in the party (tanks, heals, and DPS).

Lets put it this way it depends on the GCD of the ninja ability because most ability require at least 2 hand signs to activate that would be if both GCD was 2 sec for examples would have to damage 2x to one monk GCD but I digress why would you worry about doing more DPS then another class the point at the moment is to learn to maximise DPS for a ninja vs other ninjas before you think about comparing DPS to other DPS classis.

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Originally Posted by Parodine

Their ability to increase party damage on the mob by 10% will make them highly desirable, regardless.

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Having the ability to increase party damage on the mob by 10% wont that make them so desirable that it will make people want to have a ninja in a static rather than a dragoon? So it seems like dragoons may be thrown to the side and not needed.

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Originally Posted by Kripp

Having the ability to increase party damage on the mob by 10% wont that make them so desirable that it will make people want to have a ninja in a static rather than a dragoon? So it seems like dragoons may be thrown to the side and not needed.

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Their damage could be crap and the 10% buff makes up for it.

The gap between monk and dragoon isn't that big in the practical sense. T8 is one of the few fights that allows for monk to go uninterrupted and a dragoon is only 30-40 dps behind it. Anything else and they are within 15. I imagine Ninja will be within the same range of damage. As long as it isn't 10% lower than the other melee it won't matter. None of the fights require max ilvl and perfect player skill to beat.

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Originally Posted by Kripp

Having the ability to increase party damage on the mob by 10% wont that make them so desirable that it will make people want to have a ninja in a static rather than a dragoon? So it seems like dragoons may be thrown to the side and not needed.

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Depends on the damage they deal. If it's laughable (and they turn in more a support class relying on TA and Goad and what not) then there may still be reason to take a DRG for the consistent spike damage. However, if they can maintain 350+ DPS average in fights like T8 may give them an edge because even though there is a loss of about 50-100 DPS AVG from dropping the DRG, you'll make that up with the other DPS, yourself, the tanks, and the healers when they DPS for that brief period, more than enough damage to compensate for it.

Also dragoon is getting buffed this patch, probably because of ninja.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

They'll have the same derp as a Dragoon, so no I don't think they will beat Monks :P. Monks have to work the hardest so hopefully they will remain king.

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I can play monk in my sleep the only challenge about a monk is maintaining their derp stacks. DRGs have the more complex rotations and if you screw up even nce you have start that **** all over.

Maybe for some but they will never out dps me.

Hopefully this doesn't spiral into a "DRG IS BETTER THEN MNK... NO MNK IS BETTER THEN DRG" thread...

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Originally Posted by Pylfer

Depends on the damage they deal. If it's laughable (and they turn in more a support class relying on TA and Goad and what not) then there may still be reason to take a DRG for the consistent spike damage. However, if they can maintain 350+ DPS average in fights like T8 may give them an edge because even though there is a loss of about 50-100 DPS AVG from dropping the DRG, you'll make that up with the other DPS, yourself, the tanks, and the healers when they DPS for that brief period, more than enough damage to compensate for it.

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350 dps in T8 is laughable i'm doing 393-423 dps as a DRG in T8

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Originally Posted by Kripp

Having the ability to increase party damage on the mob by 10% wont that make them so desirable that it will make people want to have a ninja in a static rather than a dragoon? So it seems like dragoons may be thrown to the side and not needed.

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The only utility DRG brings to a party is the +DPS they give to BRD. If NIN has similar DPS and provide more overall DPS to the party, then DRG is simply outclassed. Fortunately, this is just for min/max world first teams. I really doubt the DPS of a DRG and a NIN will be so significant that one is excluded from parties in favor of the other in the long run. No DPS checks are that tight. Then again, I can see a bunch of groups thinking they're world first raiders and excluding DRG anyway... but only time will tell if that holds true.

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

I can play monk in my sleep the only challenge about a monk is maintaining their derp stacks. DRGs have the more complex rotations and if you screw up even nce you have start that **** all over.

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Lol, I can agree with that, when tank decides to spin mob in a way I can't predict and my mnk positionals don't land, it's slightly annoying that I didnt hit as hard as i could for that hit, but all the debuffs/buffs refresh and my combo doesnt break. On drg I want to throttle tanks who cause me to miss a positional, since I have to start that section of combo all over again, only this time with my cooldowns blown, so instead of landing that full thrust powered up with life surge and b4b for 1500+ dmg, it hits normally for only 900 :(

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Originally Posted by Gralna

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I know the feeling. Whenever tanks decide to spin around, I go insane because they don't think about the potential to lose a buttload of DPS for not only myself but for the party. If a DRG messes up a complex rotation, they have to start over, but more than likely without the buffs since that has already been lost. This is why I try to stand still whenever I DO tank unless the party is all ranged.

Going to go out on a limb here and say "probably".

The reason for the high potency of some moves is due to the time it takes to perform the Sanji-in (Three seals/mudras). While +20% extra damage from Kiss of the Viper/Wasp may seem incredibly good in conjunction with these kinds of potency around 200-400, and Huton (Wind) granting +15% attack speed for 70 seconds (which is insane on its own), it likely is to compensate for the loss of dps while performing the actual Sanji-in. It may not look like much, but every second lost not doing damage, is just that, loss in damage, but I think that there won't be no bigger problem catching up, at least not while Huton is active.

While MNK is dependent on Greased Lightning III to keep damage going, and indeed can be troublesome to keep up, I suspect that at least in the end, NIN will be slightly stronger. The insanity that is Trick Attack (+10% damage taken by target for 10 seconds) is enough to grant a spot to a Ninja in any party.

I think a big part of using In, like Doton, Katon, Huton and Raiton is dependent on whether doing one while another is active, erases the currently used In. IF that is the case, and IF Huton is canceled when performing for example Raiton, then it would be extremely vital for the Ninja to quickly get Huton back up FAST again as every second lost with the 15% attack speed buff up will likely get it below MNK.

That's about all I can speculate about at the moment. As a main Pugilist/Monk myself, I am very curious as to what skills we will inherit from Ninja, and vice versa.
I do however think that an incredibly skilled Ninja will do more damage than an incredibly skilled Monk. /grovel

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

350 dps in T8 is laughable i'm doing 393-423 dps as a DRG in T8

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I was referring to the NIN maintaining 350DPS+ in the fight. 350, coupled with the +10% damage that everyone gets, coupled with the fact that it happens every 60 seconds may or may not out weigh the amount of damage that DRG (or MNK even) may be able to bring :/

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Originally Posted by Pylfer

I was referring to the NIN maintaining 350DPS+ in the fight. 350, coupled with the +10% damage that everyone gets, coupled with the fact that it happens every 60 seconds may or may not out weigh the amount of damage that DRG (or MNK even) may be able to bring :/

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In most raids, Ninjas will only be able to Trick Attack once, at the start of battle. So, they won't be able to consistently reapply the +10 damage buff. Trick Attack requires Hide and Hide is only usable outside of combat. Therefore, NIN won't be as desired in raids for that simple fact.

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Originally Posted by Zanmato

Going to go out on a limb here and say "probably".
Snip Snip

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I assume the limiting factor is going to be their weapons have shit Raw damage to compensate for combo finishers with 320 POT, Kiss of the Wasp/Viper, B4B, Internal, +15% ATKSPD and the +10% damage.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

In most raids, Ninjas will only be able to Trick Attack once, at the start of battle. So, they won't be able to consistently reapply the +10 damage buff. Trick Attack requires Hide and Hide is only usable outside of combat. Therefore, NIN won't be as desired in raids for that simple fact.

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=_= Suiton let's them use Sneak Attack, or Trick Attack without Hide.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

In most raids, Ninjas will only be able to Trick Attack once, at the start of battle. So, they won't be able to consistently reapply the +10 damage buff. Trick Attack requires Hide and Hide is only usable outside of combat. Therefore, NIN won't be as desired in raids for that simple fact.

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Suiton lets you to SATA without Hide.

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Originally Posted by Pylfer

I assume the limiting factor is going to be their weapons have shit Raw damage to compensate for combo finishers with 320 POT, Kiss of the Wasp/Viper, B4B, Internal, +15% ATKSPD and the +10% damage.

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Yeah, that's very likely as well, and something I didn't consider. Guess we'll find out in a couple of months mate.

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Originally Posted by zar

Suiton lets you to SATA without Hide.

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Where can I find that info? The patch notes just say water damage with a potency of 180. Additional effect: Suiton. 10s duration.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Where can I find that info? The patch notes just say water damage with a potency of 180. Additional effect: Suiton. 10s duration.

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https://imgur.com/a/DrIQK Can find it there. Info is gained from patch notes along with analysis of past videos that show the hotbars. This is the whole reason Suiton gives an effect that lasts 10s on the user.

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Originally Posted by Lufir

Where can I find that info? The patch notes just say water damage with a potency of 180. Additional effect: Suiton. 10s duration.

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We are committing a logical fallacy while assuming this since we actually do not know to 100%, but... We assume that Suiton (Water) grants you "Hide" without using "Hide", so to say.

Edit: Oh cool! So... seems like we DO know. Sweet!

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Originally Posted by Gralna

On drg I want to throttle tanks who cause me to miss a positional, since I have to start that section of combo all over again

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Been there. One of my biggest pet peeves is tanks that can't sit the monster still quickly at the start of a fight. While the ranged DPS pew pew I have to wait for the tank to stop dancing so I can actually land an HT. I've stopped popping buffs on my first couple of rotation unless I know the tank is good because I waste BFB and IR often that way. Sometimes I have to sit on BFB because if I miss my window at the start of an encounter I can't use it before a raid-wide AoE.

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Originally Posted by Pylfer

I assume the limiting factor is going to be their weapons have shit Raw damage to compensate for combo finishers with 320 POT, Kiss of the Wasp/Viper, B4B, Internal, +15% ATKSPD and the +10% damage.

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Why? Mnks have 27% damage with GL3, 15% attack speed, 5% from Fists of Fire, 10% from Twin Snakes, -10% Blunt Resistance, B4B and for them Internal Release is better. Ninjas have higher base potency, 15% attack speed and -10% Slashing Resistance, B4B and weaksauce IR but 22% LESS steroid damage topped out. You do have high potency Trick Attack...on a 60sec CD.

Bootshine autocrit is 225 potency iirc, compared to NIN's 150 (180) potency Spinning Edge, for example. It's easy to eyeball the potency numbers and think 'high damage' but Mnk has more steroids than people give them credit for. I expect NIN to be higher than DRG on long fights, better at burst than MNK but top out lower. Middle of the lane.

EDITED: For bad math and forgetting about Twin Snakes. So...yeah.

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Originally Posted by Kripp

Is it possible that Ninja will do more dps than Monk?

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Yes. It's also possible that Monk dps will be more than Ninja.

Monks: "I sure hope not!"

Probably in long fights like turn eight, unless the bard is on top of paeon. Dragoons never have to worry about TP unlike monk, and rogues seem to be able to heal their own TP.