Booing when Coil2 Nerf was announced

I had to chuckle a bit, don't think they were expecting that. Though I agree with one of the audience members who yelled out "coil is suppose to be hard".

The worst part about it is, its not even hard. Learning the fights is hard but once you learn them, its cake mode.

It kind of shows who the vocal minority are to me when the forums are littered with people whining about difficulty but when a fan gathering is held the true feelings are much more obvious.

The hardest part about coil is finding a group to run it with regularly. Coil itself is a total joke. Savage is more like the true glimpse of what a challenging raid would be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

The worst part about it is, its not even hard. Learning the fights is hard but once you learn them, its cake mode.

---

Is that why every week I see bad pugs after bad pugs on it? I'm not taking any side on this discussion but lets not say is cakewalk because is not. Is not one or two that had problems with it, is the vast majority I've pugged with. It cannot be just my extremely bad luck.

Sure you get the occasional one shots but in general the fights are hard and I like it that they are like that. Now echo and gear may make them easier in the future but I don't see how they would help on t7 to be honest when people will just keep stoning each other. 20fi more hp doesn't really make any difference to those mechanisms.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edli

Is that why every week I see bad pugs after bad pugs on it? I'm not taking any side on this discussion but lets not say is cakewalk because is not. Is not one or two that had problems with it, is the vast majority I've pugged with. It cannot be just my extremely bad luck.

Sure you get the occasional one shots but in general the fights are hard and I like it that they are like that. Now echo and gear may make them easier in the future but I don't see how they would help on t7 to be honest when people will just keep stoning each other. 20fi more hp doesn't really make any difference to those mechanisms.

---

Mechanically the fights are very simple, just because pugs are bad does not mean the content is hard.
There is never more than one or two mechanics taking place at once, and even then they're generally things like "move now" or "turn away from party members" or "run to this tower".
When broken down the mechanics in the fights are very simple, the fact people manage to screw these up is a failure on the players part, not the developers for making it too "hard"

There is the one side. Special snow flakes that are like "I don't want others to have the gear that I have"
There is the other side. A lot of players that are like "Would mechanic x or y be a bit less punishing, we would have cleared it."

Abd of COURSE T1-9 is easy for YOU if you have Nexus/High allagan weapon and maximum current available iLvL thanks to soldery and high allagan. There still are people, who would have thought, that are not overgeared for every thing in the game.

That what happen when you want to make sure all the noobs/casual players can get it done. Also for the new players who may join or return in 2.4 and wants to catch up and play with friends. I think this is how Yoshi-p want to set this game i bet when 3.0 is release the first set of endgame would be hard then 3+month later add new set of it and everything in 3.0 would be easy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Mechanically the fights are very simple, just because pugs are bad does not mean the content is hard.

---

Seriously do not over-exaggerate so much. Very simple, cakewalk, total joke, just 3 out of 6 comments I saw here. You cannot have a serious discussion when you people do this.

They have the right amount of difficulty for pugs. May be slightly easier for dedicated statics but that's why savage exists. Just don't say cakewalk, that's just ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edli

Seriously do not over-exaggerate so much. Very simple, cakewalk, total joke, just 3 out of 6 comments I saw here. You cannot have a serious discussion when you people do this.

They have the right amount of difficulty for pugs. May be slightly easier for dedicated statics but that's why savage exists. Just don't say cakewalk, that's just ridiculous.

---

When you break down the mechanics though, they are that simple.
Let's take a look at Turn 7.
Cursed Voice? Just turn and point it away from your group, nothing difficult about that whatsoever. Yet I've been in groups where people can't for the life of them do something as simple as turn around.
Shriek? Move behind the Renaud.
Petrifaction? Turn around, so hard.
Renauds are the only difficult part of Turn 7 because of how dynamic they are, and even then that depends on your strategy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edli

Seriously do not over-exaggerate so much. Very simple, cakewalk, total joke, just 3 out of 6 comments I saw here. You cannot have a serious discussion when you people do this.

They have the right amount of difficulty for pugs. May be slightly easier for dedicated statics but that's why savage exists. Just don't say cakewalk, that's just ridiculous.

---

Ya i would not say it's cakewalk but it's surprising how many people fail at coil. What i have learn is from being in many statics for turn 6-9 is most team just does not work. Most people that i thought suck won with other party. Most people would say they was carried i would say it's not that issue to carried someone. When most people in the party only have a few of the new Ilvl gear.

Overall we just have to get use to the idea of old stuff being easy.

i feel i haven't the same definition of hard than most people then, i don't find insta-gib skill of monster hard... i found it lazy. what it's hard it when a player get hit and are left with barely enough for survive anything behind, healer will need to heal him, means less healing on the tank, means more jobs for the healer.

actually the trouble of the high end raid of FF14 is the fact that it's not really raiding, it's dancing, we don't play with the other we are doing synchronized dance together. that quite different. a fight need to be more chaotic, less organized like they are right now. a good example of fight is the boss at the end of stone vigil, where you know what can do the boss, but never know what it will do. you need to react and adapt at the situation. this is raiding!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kimikryo

There is the one side. Special snow flakes that are like "I don't want others to have the gear that I have"
There is the other side. A lot of players that are like "Would mechanic x or y be a bit less punishing, we would have cleared it."

Abd of COURSE T1-9 is easy for YOU if you have Nexus/High allagan weapon and maximum current available iLvL thanks to soldery and high allagan. There still are people, who would have thought, that are not overgeared for every thing in the game.

---

Most mechanics are very very simple if you are paying attention. the punishment is suitable in my opinion if you fail to react.

Even after nerfing people will still be stuck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edli

Seriously do not over-exaggerate so much. Very simple, cakewalk, total joke, just 3 out of 6 comments I saw here. You cannot have a serious discussion when you people do this.

They have the right amount of difficulty for pugs. May be slightly easier for dedicated statics but that's why savage exists. Just don't say cakewalk, that's just ridiculous.

---

Why does our discussion have to be any less serious than yours?

So getting a voice and turning away from players is hard? in turn 7 the kiter has the hardest job the rest is just tank and spank.

In turn 6 the hardest part (apparently) is getting people to stop spazzing during blighted...

Turn 8 its all about timing

Turn 9 is a bit more in depth than that.

Nothing in those raids is actually difficult. Learning them on the other hand, that IS the difficult part.

I bet you are the guy that believes every pug that tells you they know the fight huh?

This just in: Fights are easy when you learn them!

Most people are stuck on content due to lack of time, lack of fight knowledge, or the inability to find a competent group. There are very few players in this game that are just so bad that they can't execute a fight's mechanics, even after they know what to do. Those players usually choose not to raid on their own, as well. If SE tones down a few of SCoB's mechanics a bit, it just might help the stuck players finally get past what's holding them back.

As for the players that are currently clearing coil every week, it really won't matter to us anymore when 2.4 is released. We'll be working on Final Coil by then. I'm all about being ahead of the game, but there's really no point in permanently locking slower players behind content that is 2+ patches old, just because you did it while it was hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

It kind of shows who the vocal minority are to me when the forums are littered with people whining about difficulty but when a fan gathering is held the true feelings are much more obvious.

---

because everyone know the majority of the players are present in the Fan Fest (how can one not afford a trip to Vegas in a "limited tickets" event ?) and can assist to the live letter (which is a restricted event in a restricted event)

Be real, it only shows that the minority present at the Live Letter was in majority against a nerf. Nothing else.



On the other side, I don't see why they boo'ed the discussed nerf (petrified people can no longer be insta-killed in T7) as it won't prevent stupid death (petrified your healer/OT/kiter ? wipe). People complaining for the sake of complaining ? It will only allows the raid to survive if MT gets petrified and maybe one of the 2 healers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Let's take a look at Turn 7.

---

it's not any single mechanic that makes it hard. It's that you have to deal with all of these mechanics together while killing adds while DPSing the boss that makes it difficult. t7 alone has six different potential roles for 8 different players. It takes time to learn.
I'm with Edli, they do have relatively simple mechanics, but everything from t5 onward throws a whole bunch of them at once that, even if you know what to do, you still need to EXPERIENCE them to get them right. Add to that everyone seems to have their own tactics for them (t6 has about 4 viable tactics pre-leafstorm, with another 3-4 after leafstorm. t7 has about two) and thus you add more to the learning curve.

Oh Im not saying I care about them toning down some of the fights at all. I would love a T9 tone down to make it faster to farm for my alt which has all 50's that need lots of gear lol.

Im just saying that the mechanics in the fights aren't hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

Even after nerfing people will still be stuck.

---

This pretty much. Take a look at turn 5. A fight that has 20% echo, access to gear with 20 ilevels above the original cap and it's unlocked so friends that have beaten it can help you and yet people still complain that it's too hard and they can't beat it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

Im just saying that the mechanics in the fights aren't hard.

---

juggling 3 beanbags isn't hard either. Singing isn't hard. Try doing them together :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

It kind of shows who the vocal minority are to me when the forums are littered with people whining about difficulty but when a fan gathering is held the true feelings are much more obvious.

---

I would hardly consider attendees to be the majority of the playerbase.

I mean, I think you could break down anything in life to its most simple mechanics and claim that its not hard.

Hey here is an idea. You have a problem with having the old content nerfed using the echo buff, you just click that damn thing off. Yoshi-P wants the game to be accessible to everyone, you beat Coil 1 - 5, and then beat 6 - 9, no problem, new content incoming. You're a new player or a returning one and have friends that beat the old content, well they now can help you with those fights. It's different strokes for different folks, you all need to get over it, this how the game is moving forward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

When you break down the mechanics though, they are that simple.

---

They are. Every hard fight when you break it down mechanic for mechanic is made of simple mechanics. What makes a hard fight hard is the amount of them, the frequency and the overlapping of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyuven

it's not any single mechanic that makes it hard. It's that you have to deal with all of these mechanics together while killing adds while DPSing the boss that makes it difficult. t7 alone has six different potential roles for 8 different players. It takes time to learn.
I'm with Edli, they do have relatively simple mechanics, but everything from t5 onward throws a whole bunch of them at once that, even if you know what to do, you still need to EXPERIENCE them to get them right. Add to that everyone seems to have their own tactics for them (t6 has about 4 viable tactics pre-leafstorm, with another 3-4 after leafstorm. t7 has about two) and thus you add more to the learning curve.

---

wha? 6 roles where? You have tank and OT, Kiter -- THATS IT. Where you derive 6 from IDK

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyuven

juggling 3 beanbags isn't hard either. Singing isn't hard. Try doing them together :D

---

We arent talking juggling and singing though... We are talking face away, face away from people, and huddle. There is nothing difficult bout it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edli

They are. Every hard fight when you break it down mechanic for mechanic is made of simple mechanics. What makes a hard fight hard is the amount of them, the frequency and the overlapping of them.

---

What overlap? you BARELY get a voice and shriek overlap.. THATS IT. nothing else overlaps

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

wha? 6 roles where? You have tank and OT, Kiter -- THATS IT. Where you derive 6 from IDK

---

MT, OT, kiter, healer, Ranged DPS, melee DPS.
Melee DPS don't have to deal with fireballs but are closer to the boss.
Ranged DPS have to deal with fireballs.
MT and OT are obvious
Kiter kites renauds
Healers...heal.

Se want the community to think coil is exclusive and difficult. When it's really just a memory test.

The only difficulty with coil is finding 7 other members. Sure maybe a hint of "skill" was required figuring out these fights, but I laugh every time I see "skill" and coil in same sentence now.

Guide to coil: 1) Watch strat video from other people. 2) wipe continuously until u get it right. This is skill?

The reason why people are saying the fights are straight forward is...because in the literal sense it is. Everything is scripted and occurs on a rotation, pattern or boss hp (which is now displayed by a %). The closest dynamic mechanic I've seen is the spawn location of certain adds (such as bulbs and renauds), but dealing with them is all the same.

The real challenge is getting 7 other people who are willing to commit to a group and learn the fights. Every group does the fight differently, and while things are simple on paper, you still need to have first hand experience to be able to work on it. When you have to replace people in a static or PuG, you're at the mercy of them being on track with what you know, or essentailly have your progress reset when someone within that static bails on you.

My static has been stuck on T7 for the last week because every raid night someone bails out on us at the last minute, causing us to start an hour late and have to PUG someone (who would then also bail on us after 2-3 wipes, despite it being a progressive/learning static)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sessurea

............
Guide to coil: 1) Watch strat video from other people. 2) wipe continuously until u get it right. This is skill?

---

It is call "Oversell yourself".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

What overlap? you BARELY get a voice and shriek overlap.. THATS IT. nothing else overlaps

---

Since we're talking about T7 I as an offtank a lot of times got voice the moment I pick first add. A lot of times I get it when picking third add. Kiter getting voice or shriek when trying to do his job on positioning ren. These are overlaps in T7 and T7 is not the only fight in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

We arent talking juggling and singing though... We are talking face away, face away from people, and huddle. There is nothing difficult bout it.

---

If you are melee, don't get cleaved. Sometimes the tank will have to move the boss around, including facing where you are now. Be aware.

If you are heals, you will also have voice. Its your responsibility to freeze the renauds. Sometimes, your kiter will have to pick up a renaud from across the room. Sometimes, your voice duration will be longer or shorter than the previous one. Its also your responsibility to heal fireball damage on a ranged (or both). Particularly your kiter. Be aware.

If you are kiter, you have to be aware of your healers voice. You also have to be aware of your incoming fireball. Don't let your fireball overlap with the other ranged fireball while you are kiting around. Don't face the renauds OR the party if you get a voice while kiting. Be aware.

If you are ranged, you have it relatively easy. However, don't let your fireballs overlap with the kiter. This might seem tricky because of the way the game updates client side positions. Be aware.

In addition to the forementioned nuances, please also remember not to push the phases early, as it will result in not having a properly timed voice to hold the renauds. They will then awaken and wipe the raid.

So yea, it gets a bit more complicated than "Face away, face away from people, and huddle."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

We arent talking juggling and singing though... We are talking face away, face away from people, and huddle. There is nothing difficult bout it.

---

Um, that was a metaphor. Juggling and singing at the same time is a basic type of multi-tasking. Every single fight in this MMO is built around some form of multi-tasking. Some people are better at multi-tasking than others, while some take time.
In fact since a lot of people use voice chat, the game has a lot more in common with juggling and singing at the same time than you realize.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The reason why people are saying the fights are straight forward is...because in the literal sense it is. Everything is scripted and occurs on a rotation, pattern or boss hp (which is now displayed by a %). The closest dynamic mechanic I've seen is the spawn location of certain adds (such as bulbs and renauds), but dealing with them is all the same.

---

Ya, but hey watch for logic on these forums most people started killing late and claim "Easy". Most weren't on the cusp of progression with no guides, or defaulted to any video as soon as it came out. Without video assistance I doubt many people would have been able to do the content.

I.E. If a divebomb guide wasn't made in T9 I doubt many people would have cleared as they did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sessurea

Guide to coil: 1) Watch strat video from other people. 2) wipe continuously until u get it right. This is skill?

---

Where I somewhat agree, I also would like to point out, not everyone that runs Coil raids with this mindset.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyuven

MT, OT, kiter, healer, Ranged DPS, melee DPS.
Melee DPS don't have to deal with fireballs but are closer to the boss.
Ranged DPS have to deal with fireballs.
MT and OT are obvious
Kiter kites renauds
Healers...heal.

---

Yep, when you go into a fight, people expect you to play your job.

You aren't making much sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kyuven

MT, OT, kiter, healer, Ranged DPS, melee DPS.
Melee DPS don't have to deal with fireballs but are closer to the boss.
Ranged DPS have to deal with fireballs.
MT and OT are obvious
Kiter kites renauds
Healers...heal.

---

Well I'm gonna have to stop you there. You can't count fireball as being something that the ranged DPS have to "deal with". They get hit with it regardless, they just have to be healed up. "Being closer to the boss" isn't exactly something melee DPS have to "deal with" either. It's literally the only way they can DPS. Being close to Melusine isn't even a disadvantage in that fight.

The kiter and the OT have the hardest jobs in T7, and those jobs aren't really all that hard.

t6-8 are pretty easy especially at i110. Those fights have been PUGed for 5 months.

T8 takes the most coordination, I'd say its about the same as Ramuh EX.

T6 at i110 is a joke since you can skip the entire last phase and just DPS. Getting the person with honey eaten is the hardest part.

T7 is red light, green light in a video game. The kiter needs to be on point, the healers need to coordinate with each other. The other 5 people just turn around at the right time. There is also no DPS check in this fight so at i110 you can take your time and make sure you don't F-up.

T9 will be the struggle for most people (like t5) there is a ton going on in that fight. Meteor placement and phase 4 have the biggest learning curves.

I do the hardest role in T7 and it's honestly not hard at all. It can be annoying if the renaults choose to spawn across the field constantly making everything awkward but it's by no means hard. T8 is as simple as being able to pay attention to the field and either knowing how to listen if someone tells you to do something or knowing how the towers work. I still see people hesitate to enter a tower when they know they should and I just don't understand it. I especially don't get people dying to blighted. Console or not, just turn around and don't touch the control sticks/tap S.

So what are they gonna nerf in there? or did they just say they will nerf it whitout giving any detaled information?