Way to go Squenix, coil's loot system is sooo innovative that WoW learned from it years ago and made a token system.
I'm bored out of my mind from this raiding.
Terrible terrible unrewarding system.
12 weeks of Coil T6+T7 without my loot dropping.
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10-01-2014, 10:16 AMKalandros12 weeks of Coil T6+T7 without my loot dropping.
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10-01-2014, 10:24 AMgamesmart
12 weeks of T6 and I haven't seen my ring. RNG is RNG.
Oh, and I couldn't care less if the ring actually does drop before 2.4. -
10-01-2014, 10:31 AMElim
Yup. RNG can be a jerk sometimes. Only seen one healer ring drop in turn 8 and my healer parter was super insistent that he got it, so I let him have it. I doubt it will ever drop again. I've also cleared Ramuh extreme about 50+ times and healer ring hasn't dropped once. RNG doesn't want me to get i110 before ilvl raise.
Also never seen my healer necklace in t7.
EDIT: LOL my necklace and ring dropped tonight. -
10-01-2014, 10:50 AMAirikay
I think I'm on week 25 of clearing T7 with no healer neck.
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10-01-2014, 11:58 AMPArcher
I was a DRG in 2.0. Took me until 2.2 to get the Body, Hands, Feet, (Maiming) Ring, Mask, (Maiming) Bracelets and Spear.
And people said DRG gear rained on parties in Coil1. Right...
RNG is RNG. Lockout is gone soon anyway, so gather your static and start farming for your gear. Not like 6 or 7 (or 8) is hard with a decent group anyway... -
10-01-2014, 12:41 PMBrianmj
T6 + T7, the new atma?
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10-01-2014, 01:29 PMAshiee
Congrats on learning how RNG works. If it makes you feel better I've done Turn 6 since the second week it came out (so like 25 weeks?) and have yet to see DRG hands drop. I'm also missing a piece a single piece of dragoon armor from every turn after 20+ runs.
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10-01-2014, 01:47 PMscarebearz
14 T9 Kills, Still no BLM weapon...
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10-01-2014, 02:34 PMLitheraThere IS tokens...it's called Soldiery Tomestones...would you prefer they delete Coil and make both armor sets Soldiery gear? Sorry RNG is screwing you but for every person like you there's a group that has your drop raining on them every week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalandros
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10-01-2014, 02:34 PMXatsh
Tokens solve 1 problem and create a whole new one. Example people spamming the quickest clear dungeon to get the most myth/soldiery an hour.
Pure token drops do not work.
Maby make it where you can trade in 4 dropped items from a turn and choose 1 of your choice.
RNG and MMOs go hand and hand, people need to understand it is something that this genre is build around. If you take it away, well it has simply not worked in any mmo. And we have tokens like WoW does. It is called Soldiery Gear. That is what those are, token gear. (The person who beat me to the post by 10secs above agrees >.>) -
10-01-2014, 02:52 PMCrimson-Falcon
13 T9 kills no axe
also 13 kills an no fending ring and heavy allagan coat -
10-01-2014, 02:58 PMSapphicAbout same with t6 and never seen MNK hat and earrings drop :SQuote:
Originally Posted by Crimson-Falcon
Our first t9 kill was Tank chest and PLD sword. -
10-01-2014, 03:03 PMLadon
They really messed up the token system with ARR.
How it should have worked:
Gear drops from every dungeon from properly itemized chests. Chests could drop actual gear, just gil or some crafting item. Every person that didn't get a piece of gear from a chest would get a token instead. Said tokens could be traded in for pieces of gear that drop from the chests those particular tokens sourced from. This would have made opening chests an actual exciting event as you might get lucky. And of course if the RNG screws you over, you at least can still eventually buy some gear with your accumulated tokens. Of course this system would be applied to Coil as well.
The current system is dumb and a big source of most of the games problems. People don't run dungeons for gear, they run them for guaranteed currency and of course players are going to take the path of least resistance here. So what you get is people abandoning and ignoring all but the most efficient parts of the game. It's sad how much the current tomestone system has marginalized game content to be ATM token machines. They've tried to fix the issue with silly systems like the daily roulettes which wouldn't even be necessary if they had a proper loot and token system in the game. Not to mention the weekly caps and such that serve no purpose now that the game has enough content to keep most people busy doing something.
I really hope they change the system. It doesn't need to be done in current content and it doesn't look like it's happening in 2.4, but I REALLY hope they abandon the whole tomestone system for the first expansion in favor of something more traditional. -
10-01-2014, 03:11 PMDenariusJayIt blows my mind that they didn't take the token system route. 8 people all taking time out of there schedule yet only a select few get to have the loot. What a outdated and boring system - plus the real threat of never seeing the drop you need for weeks is so lame. They need to fix it (they won't, stubborn is stubborn)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalandros
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10-01-2014, 03:18 PMTomTom1968
I have a Love and Hate connection to Coil. I love to test myself with it and try try try till I can defeat each turn. But the Loot system is something I truly hate because it also hates me lol. While in all other dungeons I am winning Loot here and there and generally do not have a problem with getting the items I want over time, Coil is different.
In the first Coil installment, I was Item level 90 when I saw the first item dropping for BLM. By the time it dropped, it was already obsolete while others from my static were almost completely decked out in Coil drops already weeks before. I started a tad late with Coil and it took 10 weeks of clearing T5 till I saw the BLM weapon dropping. But by that time, my upgrade from Zenith was almost complete and the soon to be iLevel 100 weapon made the Coil weapon obsolete.
Second Coil is already taking the same route. We are clearing T6 and T7 since over 2 months and T8 since a month. Last week, the FIRST BLM item dropped ever. It is not that a BLM item has dropped and I lost it to another BLM or SMN. Nope, not one single item while tanks already make their drops free loot for all because they already got what they needed.
We have just started with T9 and by the time we will be able to beat it, I will have my iLevel 115 Nexus weapon already.
I know I am no Hardcore progressive Player and will always be a bit behind. But why on Earth I never get anything from the hardest content I run is something that is beyond me. It is also great when some members of my static are on Holidays. Most PF groups ask for loot link or Lodestone link. I am on a PS4 so writing down an 80 digit long link is no option and before last week, I had 0 drops to show. Always feels a bit embarrassing to do Coil since months and still walk around like all the Hunters out there who do not step a foot in Coil.
RNG in Coil prevents that I feel rewarded besides the great moments when you beat a Turn for the first time and at some stage reliably and quick.
I will always prefer a Token system over RNG based loot. Not only because I get the shaft obviously but because I know that this kind of loot system is bound to produce winners and losers - for doing the exact same thing. Also gear progression and planning is more a matter of Luck than anything. -
10-01-2014, 03:18 PMLithera14 kills is statistically nowhere close to a large enough data set to prove anything btw. How many of the weps have you actually seen? Statistically you should have seen 6/9 weapons after 14 runs or 8 repeat weapons of varying types (Could even be 8 extra WHM staves for example). The expected number of runs to see every wep at least once is 26. There hasn't been 26 resets since 2.2 and it took 2 weeks for a group to clear T9 anyways. The odds of not seeing a certain wep 14 times in a row is also irrelevant by the way since you have the same flat 1/9 shot every week.Quote:
Originally Posted by scarebearz
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10-01-2014, 03:19 PMUtsu
Just pray the Helix.
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10-01-2014, 03:24 PMLadonI get why you are pointing this out, but you are pretty much driving at the main problem here. Statistically under the current system, you are likely to never see the weapon you are after until the next content upgrade comes, lifts the weekly lockouts and then becomes an outdated piece of gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
And players can't do a thing to improve their odds which is the most frustrating part of it all. -
10-01-2014, 03:28 PMLitheraWhat you just described is essentially a tomestone set for every dungeon Tier...that would be even more tedious than it is right now. There is nothing wrong with the Tomestone system. IT does exactly as you are asking. Rewards you with tokens so you can purchase gear to fill slots you're not having luck getting the Coil drop for. Of course you're going to hold out on the soldiery piece for a slot where High Allagan is better but once you've picked up your essential Soldiery pieces you can start grabbing the odds and ends as well as long as it doesn't impact your accuracy cap and replace with High Allagan as it drops. Heck we even have another (unrestricted) source for i110 rings and a finished relic wep is even with HIgh Allagan . You don't want the sllow but guaranteed grind...you don't want the quicker, harder but RNG based option either...what the F do you want?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
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10-01-2014, 03:34 PMLitheraNo...statistically you stand a pretty good chance of seeing your weapon. After 14 runs you have a 6/9 shot of having seeing your wep of choice at least once. The 26 attempts is simply the point where all 9 weps should have fallen at least once. Your static will have 8 people...it's expected that you'll see 8/9 weapons in 22 attempts. Does this hurt people who have taken a while to reach T9? Yes. But there's nothing wrong with that. Dedicated people who managed clears early in 2.2 are justly rewarded. Those slower people are also the ones most likely to be most of the way through their Main's relic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ladon
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10-01-2014, 03:41 PMLadonNo this entire system is flawed. The entire concept of having parallel but different gear is just a bigger piece of the entire problem and it has created one of the worst gear progression systems I've seen in an MMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
The current system does not:
-Solve the issue outside of Coil in any way. All content outside of Coil serves as nothing but a tomestone farm.
-Solve the issue of people wanting complete gear sets. This is a fundamental drive for many, many players.
-Allow for proper statistical loot population without having to artificially cap player activities.
-Solve the massive redundant gear issue the current system has created.
A proper loot, itemization and token system as I describe solves all of the above with no additional issues that aren't already present in the current system. -
10-01-2014, 03:46 PMOoshima
My FC mate who just got his 21st T9 kill last night finally saw his BLM staff, lol. Another FC mate on his 20th T9 kill have yet to see his SMN Book. Another of my friend on his 17th T9 kill have yet to see the MNK fist.
Got to continue sacrificing a lalafell every week... -
10-01-2014, 03:55 PMDuelleThe token system in WoW was only in place for tier pieces (the class-specific gear in that particular dungeon). And the only reason it worked the way it did there was because there was a LOT of loot in each raid between multiple weapons and a lot of armor pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalandros
You're asking SE to put High Alagan gear on a vendor to be obtained by a boss dropping a token for each armor piece. This wouldn't work because it creates a lot of iffy loot distribution. Bosses in WoW would drop two or three armor tokens per kill, and I don't think we have enough jobs in the game nor people in a raid (coil being only 8-man) to justify that approach. Also remember that tokens bunched up several classes, so you go from loot RNG to Need Roll RNG between you and however many people of the classes that correspont to the token are present in the raid.
It's not as easy as saying "i want a token system". -
10-01-2014, 04:00 PMLadonHuh? It would be completely controlled. They would know the exact maximum number of tokens a person could gain in Coil and know the exact maximum rate since there is a weekly lockout. Pricing the High Allagan gear to allow for a desired loot distribution would be dead simple. If they want to control weapons vs armor it's as simple as having an armor token and a weapon token which drop only from specific turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
We aren't talking about a system where one token = one piece of gear here. FF14 1.0 had a perfectly good working system like this for primal weapon drops. I'm not sure why they didn't just expand on that system. -
10-01-2014, 04:30 PMlogicallysynced
I'm one of those people who have gone 10 weeks without a single, I mean not a single BRD drop, which is really Really starting to get on my nerves, but at the same time my static has got the T9 DRG lance about 5 times in a row now. I have heard so many stories about similar situations happening in other parties & statics - never seeing a single item once over months and months, yet seeing the same item over and over, week after week.
Think about this.. Lets say each chest contains 12 items each in them and RNG chooses which item to give the party. Imagine having a 12 sided dice which you roll. It is extremely unlikely (statistically impracticable) to roll the same number four or more times in a row - and even if you did get it once or twice, the chances of you getting it the next time drops exponentially.
[continued] -
10-01-2014, 04:31 PMlogicallysynced
[continued]
If the FFXIV Loot system was based on pure RNG, I don't think this could ever happen where you get the same item dropping more than 2 (maybe, just MAYBE 3) times in a row - it just doesn't make sense. So i think the system is deeper then just rolling a random number - maybe there is a priority system on it or maybe the seed that is generating the RNG (or however it is being generated) is skewing the results. I can't believe its just "bad luck" any more.
Now I have no idea if this is the truth or not, but there's just no way logically speaking that it could be pure RNG with the sheer amount of complaints about the system. You can't just say RNG is RNG (or randomness), because 4+ times in a row is not randomness, its a pattern. -
10-01-2014, 04:44 PMKarstenSYeah. I've seen the monk body in 10 weeks 6 times now. Paladin shield last 3 weeks in a row. Another group of my fc has seen the heal body 9 times now and don't loot it anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by logicallysynced
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10-01-2014, 04:51 PMZanhe
I finally got my High Allagan Pantaloons of Healing on my 16th clear yesterday. (first drop for main class, yay!)
Still don't have my crook, nor did we get the staff, sword, spear, or dragoon body.
This is going to get ridiculous if they don't change it in expansion, and will be even more annoying in 2.4 because of Ninja loots -
10-01-2014, 05:05 PMMilesSaintboroguh
They'll fix the drop rate once they fix the Atma drop rate, lol
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10-01-2014, 05:09 PMTomTom1968
The lockout is part of the problem. While Coil is locked, you sometimes do not get your loot because of RNG distribution. When Coil gets opened, the content and drops from it are close to being irrelevant. Most you get from unlocking Coil is to raise the Item level of classes you do not really play that often.
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10-01-2014, 05:38 PMArtiste
I did T6 the first week, and I still didn't get the earing (but the other healer got one), I think I gonna get them when Second coil will be farmable.
We're also missing one healer robe in T7, and 2 Hat in T8 -didn't even drop one- (was not done first week but we did it kinda early)
At same time, we dropped 5 WHM staff in T9, and 6 Shields in T8 (nobody want them anymore)... The drops look kinda balance.
Now we have a new Paladin that miss the Shield, I believe we wont drop the Shield anymore, because the game seems to try all what he can to troll us.
RNG is a good thing, if we knew before, what we whould drop, it wont be fun, but 5 staffs and 6 shield, that's too much. -
10-01-2014, 05:44 PMHik0Quote:
Originally Posted by logicallysynced
Do you really think you are the only group that cleared the tier since your last clear?Quote:
Originally Posted by logicallysynced
RNG is not individual/party it's serverwide. you might get the same face a your 4 throw but the die have been throwned several times between your tries by other player who got other results.
let's say 9 groups cleared t9 10 times, group A got 10swords, group B got 10 axes .....
out of the 90 clear people got 10 of each weapon= the RNG worked perfectly! -
10-01-2014, 06:08 PMlogicallysyncedIt shouldn't matter if you cleared the same instance back to back (ie. farmed) without anyone clearing in between, or if 1000 groups cleared between your first and second clear - the fact remains that it should be statistically impracticable for one individual (or by extension, static) to get the same number 4 or more times. I doubt the RNG takes previous (dc wide) drops into account - that would screw up the RNG altogether, it's far more likely that once a group clears the instance, the RNG generates a number between 1 and 9 and compares said number to a loot table - however if this were the case, the returned loot should be far more random and should essentially never yield the same result more then 2-3 consecutive times - even taking multiple clears across all Datacentres into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hik0
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10-01-2014, 06:09 PMlogicallysynced
To help prove my point, I wrote a very small web app which can be accessed here. It will replicate a true RNG scenario where it generates 2 numbers and compares them to two separate loot tables (in this case T9). You can see, its possible to generate the same number twice in a row, but getting it a third time is extremely difficult. If FFXIV does use true RNG, why is getting 4+ weeks of the same loot far more common then it `should` be?
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10-01-2014, 06:16 PMArtiste
Maybe, or only unlucky players are speaking about it, and the other no.
It's tru that, if you calculate, you have I chance on 9 to drop a weapon once.
To get the same weapon once again, it's 1/81 (more then 1% chance, it's still ok)
We got the same weapon 4 times in row (the 5th was a little later)
The chance for 2 are already really low, but not that low at same time, but 3 it is : 1/729 (0.137% chance)
We got same 4 times : It was 1/6561, or 0.015% chance, that's kinda unlucky.
Or you can think about it in another way :
Every clear, it's 1/9, and the chance doesn't cumulate.
This is true, but not completly. -
10-01-2014, 06:22 PMabzoluut
I have never seen the tank boots drop (T6). I have cleared T6 since the 2nd week it came out (never missed a week). You're not the only one, some people have worse stories.
It does suck when you want something for glamour or complete a set. However, with how sands are handed out at the moment, one could easily put soldiery in a slot. Granted it might not be BiS for Coil. Let's be honest though, when you're i100+ with a i110 weapon, you're overgeared anyway.
Head over to a WoW forum and read their opinions about token-systems for endgame content. I think you used your opinion as a fact to make your claim sound stronger. -
10-01-2014, 06:31 PMAlphras
The current loot system is bad and Square (or rather Yoshi) knows this. They just don't know what to do with it =/.
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10-01-2014, 07:14 PMKalandrosCan't meet Accuracy cap if I go with random pieces. Because Garuda doesn't take accuracy from food buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by abzoluut
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10-01-2014, 07:18 PMAdamFyiNot to be that guy but, that's just Gamblers Fallacy. The drops you get on one occasion does not affect the drops you get in another occasion. Since there are always 9 possible drops - no matter what, there will always be a 1/9th of a chance for each item to drop. The chances of each item dropping consecutively will always remain 1/9th because each event occurs independent of previous events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Artiste
Sometimes I don't like it because it gives the RNG power to troll you. Curse you healer robe! Why won't you ever drop? :( -
10-01-2014, 07:33 PMMadoka
A token system would work very easily.
Clear Turn 6 and get a drop? No token
Clear turn 6 and get no drop? token given upon exit
Take 4-8 turn 6 tokens or whatever seems applicable to trade for one piece of Turn 6 gear. If you cleared it for 2 months without a single drop you've by all rights earned at least one piece of something you want from it. If you get the drop you wanted sooner, cool you can buy something for an alt job to help your group or a piece of gear to vanity.
Just make each turn have its own token that only buys things dropped from that turn. Put the npc in the intermission map we get dumped into between turns or something. Ancient Allagan Vending machine