How much DPS does Selene actually add?

Assuming a full party of 8 people, has anyone theorized how much DPS Selene adds?

I honestly can't notice a difference on my spells when Selene's haste buffs are active, but I rarely play DPS.

As the majority of the FFXIV population is approaching ilevel 110 gear, the trend to replace a second healer or second tank with a DPS is becoming more and more popular.

Given that a scholar with the proper cross class abilities can push about 70% of the DPS that a regular caster DPS can push, depending on how much DPS Selene adds to the overall DPS of a raid, it seems disadvantageous to replace the scholar with a DPS.

But in truth, I really have no clue if Selene's haste buffs even add more than a moot amount of DPS to an 8-man raid.

The more skill speed or spell speed you have the more she adds. She has a flat % buff. It doesn't JUST help DPS it also helps healers, by the way. I can't give you hard numbers because I'm a lazy SOB, but I have come across charts before that show DPS output for all classes+what extra DPS can be pumped out with selene. Most classes get a decent boost. SMN doesn't really get much out of selene though.

I definitely aagree that it helps healers too, I'm just wondering in the case where the group is only interested in additional DPS since that seems to be the trend to finish content faster when people start to outgear encounters.

All right, some math time. Let's imagine 3 scenarios, a SS-oriented BLM (Best Case) a DRG (Average) and a barely-using any SS SMN (Worst case).

I simply took the default BiS builds from Ariyala's and the stat weight for this calculations. I used the simplified (Stat Weight)/2 formula for calculating DPS.

BLM:
514 Spell Speed at 0.258 Stat Weight.
Selene would add 154.2 extra SS, which in turns translate to around +39.78 DPS. At half uptime, this is +19.89 DPS.

DRG:
430 Skill Speed at 0.178 Stat Weight.
Selene would add 129 extra SS, which in turns translate to around +22.962 DPS. At half uptime, this is +11.481 DPS.

SMN:
410 SS at 0.0.94 Stat Weight.
Selene would add 123 SS, which turns into +11.56 DPS. At half uptime, this is +5.781 DPS.


So there you have it. Most of the time the real number should be somewhere around where the DRG stands. A BLM focusing on SS isn't very common and that is a very specific case, whereas a SMN ignoring SS altogether is the expected. Do remember that Tanks get a smaller boost, and SCH is on the same boat as SMN as far as DPS goes (So Selene doesn't add much to the SCH's own DPS).

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Originally Posted by Kyros

All right, some math time. Let's imagine 3 scenarios, a SS-oriented BLM (Best Case) a DRG (Average) and a barely-using any SS SMN (Worst case).
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Wow this is so helpful thanks!

from my experience using Selene in various raid situations with varying party comps, I see 2.5%-4% total raid dps coming from Selene. Also consider that based on party placement an a 20y range, some members might miss the buff when she uses it while handling mechanics/adds

Also her buff stacks with the SCH/SMN trait which can give Scholars a free "Presence of Mind" buff. It's a fairly substantial boost with both up at once.

I main as a scholar, and I prefer Selene. The spell speed doesn't just increase my dps, but my healing output as well. I can cast faster. Now, I'm not sure on this, but it seems fey glow also speeds up Embrace as well. Or at least it seems to for me.

Back when I was in ilvl 100 gear on whm I tested selenes buff with presence of mind and it took me up to 1038 spell speed and holy was at 1.8 recast. Felt like a big difference.

I always use Selene when soloing on SCH and nearly always in dungeons and raids. The mobs go down faster for both. I don't have the numbers to back this up, but try soloing a FATE boss with cleric stance and check it out: Selene vs Eos.

IIRC there's some parses on the TC area of FFXIV's subreddit... pragmatically, it worked out to be a less than 2% DPS increase (About 1.8% if I remember right). It would be interesting to see some other data, actual data, to check against.

I'm going to be working on my SS as SCH, want to pump out those Adlo's quick, Novus planned as 40 Crit 35 SS, and with Daystar, I'm guessing using Selene is going to be noticible.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

SMN:
410 SS at 0.0.94 Stat Weight.
Selene would add 123 SS, which turns into +11.56 DPS. At half uptime, this is +5.781 DPS.

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I really should ask Ariyala to change that value as it isn't true. Spell Speed is closer to 0,065 for summoner, which makes it even more worse. Summoner BiS builds are under 400 Spell Speed which makes Selene less than 1% of a DPS buff for summoners.

The SMN's SS comes from HA book and some earring where the other option isn't much better, I think. Also I just noticed I have an extra 0 on there, woops!

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I really should ask Ariyala to change that value as it isn't true. Spell Speed is closer to 0,065 for summoner, which makes it even more worse. Summoner BiS builds are under 400 Spell Speed which makes Selene less than 1% of a DPS buff for summoners.

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Can only imagine what would happen if SS was changed to affect the DoT ticks of SMN spells...

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Originally Posted by Kyros

The SMN's SS comes from HA book and some earring where the other option isn't much better, I think. Also I just noticed I have an extra 0 on there, woops!

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I wasn't questioning the origin of the 410 really, it was just rore just to say that the value 0.094 you gave is erroneous. It was actually still nice to see someone else math out the Selene buff just to show how terrible Spell Speed is for Summoner

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Can only imagine what would happen if SS was changed to affect the DoT ticks of SMN spells...

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Seeing as we are close to being number 1 on most encounters, Spell Speed affecting DoTs will probably mean a nerf to all said DoTs and knowing Square Enix, we'd lose more than we'd gain so I'm happy where it is right now. Though if they were to look at how to make it better for us, making our pets benefit from it would actually be a start.

I remember a while back when I was still on the fence about Eos vs Selene during T6. My party's DPS was low'ish and the 3rd bee kept transitioning into the final phase. (Never fun)

After 2-3 wipes (they didn't understand to stop DPS on the boss and I couldn't tell then because of the language barrier =/ ), so I decided to try Selene at this point. We were able to skip the 3rd bee entirely and the phase transitioned smoothly. ^^

Switching to Selene was one of the best decisions I made, in terms of raiding of course... =)

Smart BLMs will try for as much Spell Speed as possible, and also SSPD has a value of 0.270 for BLMs. Which make the Selene numbers even better for us.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Smart BLMs will try for as much Spell Speed as possible, and also SSPD has a value of 0.270 for BLMs. Which make the Selene numbers even better for us.

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I never saw much point in spell speed. Presence of Mind on WHM literally doubles your existing spell speed and only makes a small difference to cast times overall (roughly 15% bonus on around 460 spell speed), so these small increments given by Selene probably won't do much in practical terms.

The main issue is that all this DPS checking implies that you're able to endlessly chain strong attacks, something BLM cannot do because of Umbral/Astral and SMN can't do since most of their damage comes from DoT, and not from Ruin. It's probably great for melee, who are likely to see the strongest benefit from Selene since they are only limited by GCD in most cases.

I'd think that Monks would recieve the greatest benefit to SS increase, especially since what they can do in the middle of their rotation depends on it.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

I never saw much point in spell speed. Presence of Mind on WHM literally doubles your existing spell speed and only makes a small difference to cast times overall (roughly 15% bonus on around 460 spell speed), so these small increments given by Selene probably won't do much in practical terms.

The main issue is that all this DPS checking implies that you're able to endlessly chain strong attacks, something BLM cannot do because of Umbral/Astral and SMN can't do since most of their damage comes from DoT, and not from Ruin. It's probably great for melee, who are likely to see the strongest benefit from Selene since they are only limited by GCD in most cases.

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You need to follow BLM discussions more these days. Speed has become the go-to stat.

this may be off topic, but id like to add that imo a good sch will use Eos and a lazy sch will use Selene. if i ever raid as sch(i main whm) i prefer to use Eos due to her Regen and her other rather good abilites(magic defense boost and healing boost). if you need to rely on the the Selene buff in raid to get thru dps checks youre doing it wrong :p

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Originally Posted by reality_check

...the group is only interested in additional DPS since that seems to be the trend to finish content faster when people start to outgear encounters.

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Yes, and then whining on forum about some mechanics kicks in too early, making the group wipe. After learn how to dps, it needs also learn when to hold dps.

Even today, with a good percentage of endgame and geared player, I still have fun to see what dps players does at Praetorium when the instance of Ultima buffed starts.

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Originally Posted by bennettaj

this may be off topic, but id like to add that imo a good sch will use Eos and a lazy sch will use Selene.

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How about ... no.

Personally, I use Selene in farm content and Eos otherwise, unless it's a AoE intensive fight (e.g. Levi EX) that Eos is specifically better equipped for. Just like how extra VIT is pointless on tanks once they have enough to survive and they're better off stacking STR, Eos is pointless once you have the capability of healing without her.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

You need to follow BLM discussions more these days. Speed has become the go-to stat.

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What's 'trending' and what's actually beneficial are two very different things that have never seen eye to eye. Given that parsers have already pretty much singled out spell speed as the slowest possible means of increasing your damage, and that's before external factors such as having to dodge or waiting on cooldowns, combined with the fact that you need over 100 spell speed to make even a 0.1 difference in your cast time... I just don't see how it can benefit you much.

Honestly, I personally wish SE would revisit spell speed to make it more useful or set a flat cast rate so we can get an actual useful stat in its place. Or Haste.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

What's 'trending' and what's actually beneficial are two very different things that have never seen eye to eye. Given that parsers have already pretty much singled out spell speed as the slowest possible means of increasing your damage, and that's before external factors such as having to dodge or waiting on cooldowns, combined with the fact that you need over 100 spell speed to make even a 0.1 difference in your cast time... I just don't see how it can benefit you much.

Honestly, I personally wish SE would revisit spell speed to make it more useful or set a flat cast rate so we can get an actual useful stat in its place. Or Haste.

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Because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't. People didn't randomly say that Spell Speed was the best stat with facts and data to prove it.

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Originally Posted by bennettaj

this may be off topic, but id like to add that imo a good sch will use Eos and a lazy sch will use Selene. if i ever raid as sch(i main whm) i prefer to use Eos due to her Regen and her other rather good abilites(magic defense boost and healing boost). if you need to rely on the the Selene buff in raid to get thru dps checks youre doing it wrong :p

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This can go both way. I think a Scholar who uses Eos for everything is lazy and actually a not so good healer if he needs her in anything but AoE intensive encounters.

Wheeee. DPS DPS DPS.

I am so annoyed with the obsession over DPS.

MMO makers should just get rid of tanks and healers, make everything DPS, because apparently that's all that impatient gamers want nowadays. Huge numbers they can swing around and use to determine how to clear content 1337 fast.

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

Wheeee. DPS DPS DPS.

I am so annoyed with the obsession over DPS.

MMO makers should just get rid of tanks and healers, make everything DPS, because apparently that's all that impatient gamers want nowadays. Huge numbers they can swing around and use to determine how to clear content 1337 fast.

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Yeah, the nerve of these people wanting to optimize the class they play.

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Originally Posted by bennettaj

this may be off topic, but id like to add that imo a good sch will use Eos and a lazy sch will use Selene.

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If you're using Eos instead of selene you're slowing down the kill. Maybe you don't care about how quickly a kill or farm goes, but I bet you someone in your party will. Personally I think if a SCH uses Eos anywhere outside of maybe ifirt extreme or double SCH healing then they're being lazy. She only makes healing slightly easier. If she's used right. But you shouldn't ever feel like you need her imo, at least in the content that's currently out.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

DRG:
430 Skill Speed at 0.178 Stat Weight.
Selene would add 129 extra SS, which in turns translate to around +22.962 DPS. At half uptime, this is +11.481 DPS.
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If only math would be so easy. In case of some classes spell speed boost is almost useless. I think DRG in this case is the worst. Why? Because dragoons rotations is highly rotation based - meaning what buffs are up and in which place you are in your combos. Additional spell speed usually does nothing much because then you are in a weird position where you either need to clip your buffs or start some combo which you will end in a position where you don't have your buffs up. Also drg spell speed actually gives so little in the actual time reduction that you normally wouldn't "squeeze" another skill in.

Monks are different scenario cuz they go for speed. And favour ss a lot.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't. People didn't randomly say that Spell Speed was the best stat with facts and data to prove it.

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Didn't they though? As you rightly pointed out, there's calculations about this. And these very same calculations show that the GCD is affected in such a tiny way that you'd need literally 100 spell speed to reduce your GCD by 0.1, you know... as I mentioned in my earlier post.

Realistically, you're going to get around 200-250 spell speed out of Selene so that's shaving literally 0.2 seconds off your cast time. In extremely rare cases this might just make the difference between casting or not if you're moving around a lot, but realistically it's going to matter about as much as dyeing your armor and proclaiming that 'red ones hit harder'. In short, there was no conclusive evidence to say 'spell speed is better', just a lot of speculation about best builds. Also, it relied on best-case scenarios rather than any attempt at a real battle.

In either case, the difference was so small in damage between SS and crit builds that you're not going to set the world ablaze with your awesome damage boost.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

stuff about spell speed

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Here's some math for you: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...age-Calculator

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Yeah, the nerve of these people wanting to optimize the class they play.

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Except, we're talking about DPS for a HEALER class... or did you miss that?

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

Except, we're talking about DPS for a HEALER class... or did you miss that?

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Did I miss the memo that it was forbidden for healers to add DPS during healing downtime ?

Edit: By reading the thread over again, nowhere is it actually mentioned that this post was strictly targeted towards healers. Nearly every jobs are being discussed. The OP even mentioned that:

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Originally Posted by reality_check

I definitely aagree that it helps healers too, I'm just wondering in the case where the group is only interested in additional DPS since that seems to be the trend to finish content faster when people start to outgear encounters.

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was the intention of his post.

Though I did get a chuckle of the total overreaction you had over this topic when you could simply have closed the thread.

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Originally Posted by bennettaj

this may be off topic, but id like to add that imo a good sch will use Eos and a lazy sch will use Selene. if i ever raid as sch(i main whm) i prefer to use Eos due to her Regen and her other rather good abilites(magic defense boost and healing boost). if you need to rely on the the Selene buff in raid to get thru dps checks youre doing it wrong :p

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How about.. No. Everyone has an opinion of course but I <3 Selene. I favor her over Eos. I will only have Eos out if there is another scholar that wants to use their Selene or in heavy raid content. Everything else is all about Selene. I am constantly doing Skill or Spell speed when one or the other wears off - almost non-stop (as long as I am not distracted by something else). And in no way am I being lazy - I am in and out of cleric stance depending on the ever change circumstances, constantly busy. I remember someone telling me Selene was junk. I see a marked difference just in my spell speed alone when I do that buff of hers. I love it. Absolutely LOVE IT.

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

Except, we're talking about DPS for a HEALER class... or did you miss that?

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And why shouldn't we?

DPS is DPS no matter who it's coming from. There is a ton of healer downtime in every. Single. Non-Savage. Encounter. In. The. Game. You can sit on your laurels in progression at times to maintain a MP buffer, sure. You can argue healing is a more important focus than occasionally DPSing, ok. But just because you don't have the competence or group coordination to be able to do it doesn't mean it is a fruitless discussion. Just means you're lazy or bad or your group is.

Tank DPS is even more criminal to skimp out on because tanks are doing damage just by doing what they do. The increases in a det build over a parry build are tiny but the benefits on parry do not truly matter for the one thing tanks/healers have to be genuinely be concerned about: big spike damage.

You do what you need to to win or exceed expectations, or you accept that you're behind the curve.

Edit: Also I hate to call experience into the discussion but you barely have one 50 job and the most difficult fight you seem to have cleared is Garuda EX. It's pretty safe to assume you don't know what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

You do what you need to to win or exceed expectations, or you accept that you're behind the curve.

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Quoted for emphasis. This needs to be read by a lot of people.

Can SE use the Banish Bat on Selene? Everytime I ask my Bard for TP Song I swear I see "+ Fey Light" before Army's Paeon is even casted. I be like "Nuuuuuuuu my TP" and my bard like "I already gave you Paeon" then I be like "Blame Hitler Fairy".