What's your opinion on the "Shoulder Tackle" skill for Monks?

I was going to title this thread "Changes that should be made to shoulder tackle" but I realized that it was a rather strong opinion so I decided I'd ask for a general opinion.

Personally, I think it needs to be reworked to better suit the Monk playstyle. I love the Monk class and all the pains that come with it, but one pain I don't particularly like is losing my GL stack. It's frustrating as I feel very useless unless I have GL3. One could argue that "it's just part of the game mechanics" but does it really have to be? I'm not an advocate of increasing GL duration as it would kill the fast paced playstyle of monks but the fact that we have to move around so much to avoid aoe's during some major bossfights cripples us. So my suggestion is this, and it ties back into the thread title, why not rework Shoulder Tackle?

What I mean is this: Cutting down its cooldown by half and maybe reducing how far away you have to be from a target to activate it? This would allow us to move out of quickly recurring aoes and quickly burst back in to maintain our GL stacks(or move between far away targets to keep the "flow" of battle). As a drawback, maybe completely eliminate the stun effect it has? Which is honestly kind of useless.

Tbh, I just really want to zigzag between enemies like Cloud Strife during a sonic blade attack. :D

I'm not sure when you started to play MNK. I just wanted to point out that shoulder tackle had its CD reduced by rather a large margin. I don't remember what the CD used to be. It has been discussed on numorous threads too. ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...o-be-reworked. )

MNK (for me!) is one of the best DPS classes we have due to GL. It's always a fun challenge to don't lose it. I can't see how you think being able to zigzag through enemies is balanced though. :P

Shoulder Tackle.......hate it. Monks keep stunning the Wavetooth Sahagin with it in Leviathan EX and make me cry inside when I'm the offtank :P But seriously, I think it is fine how it is.....purpose is a gap closer......but please monks....STAHP using it to get to the caster add in Leviathan T.T

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

I'm not sure when you started to play MNK. I just wanted to point out that shoulder tackle had its CD reduced by rather a large margin. I don't remember what the CD used to be.

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Used to be 90 seconds which made it borderline useless.

I wouldn't mind if it didn't do anything else but get us back in the fight. A shorter cd and no attack would be fine with me just to keep stacks. Frustrating to lose it in titan honestly. And I agree, stun can have is purpose but it's almost ineffective when linked to shoulder tackle, I don't run away just to try and stun anything really unless it's pvp

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

I'm not sure when you started to play MNK. I just wanted to point out that shoulder tackle had its CD reduced by rather a large margin. I don't remember what the CD used to be. It has been discussed on numorous threads too. ( http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...o-be-reworked. )

MNK (for me!) is one of the best DPS classes we have due to GL. It's always a fun challenge to don't lose it. I can't see how you think being able to zigzag through enemies is balanced though. :P

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I'm a month old. Thanks for the link. ^^And yes, I would definitely love to zigzag between enemies to keep up the pace of battle. Between fighting the boss and killing adds, losing GL is fairly common for me, especially when we have a long range DPS. They often times pick off adds I'm running to and right before I can land an attack the add is dead and I lose my GL. If I could immediately jump to the add, kill it, move to the next, kill it, move to the boss, etc, I think that would be good for everyone involved. ^^

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Originally Posted by monkeytheman

Shoulder Tackle.......hate it. Monks keep stunning the Wavetooth Sahagin with it in Leviathan EX and make me cry inside when I'm the offtank :P But seriously, I think it is fine how it is.....purpose is a gap closer......but please monks....STAHP using it to get to the caster add in Leviathan T.T

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I'm honestly in favor of having the stun effect completely removed in favor of a shorter cool down. This way both of us are happy. :D

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Used to be 90 seconds which made it borderline useless.

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Yikes! Maybe I'm over stepping then.

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Originally Posted by ksufoley

I wouldn't mind if it didn't do anything else but get us back in the fight. A shorter cd and no attack would be fine with me just to keep stacks. Frustrating to lose it in titan honestly. And I agree, stun can have is purpose but it's almost ineffective when linked to shoulder tackle, I don't run away just to try and stun anything really unless it's pvp

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Yeah, honestly, I wouldn't care if the damage was removed as well. Its only real use is to move to close a gap(before steal peak I used to use it to stun, but it was really disruptive to battle flow). As a previous poster mentioned, the stun is also inconvenient for other people. To add to her own dilemma, there are bosses that build resistance after being stunned one too many times and more often than not, we're not using shoulder tackle to stun so it's counter productive. Maybe just keep the stun for PVP(with CD as it is) and remove it for PVE with a reduced CD?

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Originally Posted by ksufoley

Frustrating to lose it in titan honestly

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I can understand that. I'm quite happy that endgame fights favor different DPS jobs, I would lose interest if my MNK would trump all every single encounter there is.

You mentioned Titan, MNK isn't the only one suffering from his jump, other jobs are too. If anything, we can keep our GLIII by attacking the bombs in Titan EX after heart phase!

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Originally Posted by Crxssroad

Yeah, honestly, I wouldn't care if the damage was removed as well. Its only real use is to move to close a gap(before steal peak I used to use it to stun, but it was really disruptive to battle flow). As a previous poster mentioned, the stun is also inconvenient for other people. To add to her own dilemma, there are bosses that build resistance after being stunned one too many times and more often than not, we're not using shoulder tackle to stun so it's counter productive. Maybe just keep the stun for PVP(with CD as it is) and remove it for PVE with a reduced CD?

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Hmm, I don't think MNKs should chase mobs. If ranged picks up adds, either the tank was too late with generating aggro or that DPS attacked too soon or the wrong target. Let's not forget it's still group cohesion, an MMO. The situation you describe should not happen. If it does happen, ranged is close enough for your next ability to land. Bootshine/dragon kick the boss, then start running and twin snake/true strike the add etc..

Stun at Levi is not counter productive. If people can not communicate, it gets messy. I was in a group who used that stun. When Levi just came out, that add was a minor DPS check. There was no time for the tank to build aggro and stun at the same time. He just did his enmity combo and then at 80-ish % I (the MNK) shoulder tackled in which counted as the first stun. Worked as a charm. With your reasoning: when a tank flashes in T7 and picks up a renaud which he shouldn't, flash now is counter productive? I think you're reasoning is a bit biased. :P

Don't get me wrong, I looove MNK. Just posted my vanity in the vanity thread because I like the job so much. I just don't think it would be balanced if we could teleport to every mob and back to the boss. For endgame it would be massively overpowered unless they would nerf our potency which would be far worse than having shoulder tackle at 30 seconds.

Honestly, my only real beef with it is that it NEEDS to be a certain distance away to use. If anything gets changed to it, I'd like it to be that I can use it at any point within the 20y range.

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Originally Posted by ArkAharu

Honestly, my only real beef with it is that it NEEDS to be a certain distance away to use. If anything gets changed to it, I'd like it to be that I can use it at any point within the 20y range.

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This. It was usable at any distance once you were in the minimum range requirement in 1.23, and I really hope they change it to be this way again.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

This. It was usable at any distance once you were in the minimum range requirement in 1.23, and I really hope they change it to be this way again.

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I think the only reason this was implemented was to limit the use of its stun effect. Without that limitation, the stun would actually be useful. Lol But I get the gripe, I wish I could use it at shorter distances as well, sometimes I'll run the opposite direction from an enemy because it's more "viable" to step a few yalms away to use shoulder tackle but it makes no real sense.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Hmm, I don't think MNKs should chase mobs. If ranged picks up adds, either the tank was too late with generating aggro or that DPS attacked too soon or the wrong target. Let's not forget it's still group cohesion, an MMO. The situation you describe should not happen. If it does happen, ranged is close enough for your next ability to land. Bootshine/dragon kick the boss, then start running and twin snake/true strike the add etc..

Stun at Levi is not counter productive. If people can not communicate, it gets messy. I was in a group who used that stun. When Levi just came out, that add was a minor DPS check. There was no time for the tank to build aggro and stun at the same time. He just did his enmity combo and then at 80-ish % I (the MNK) shoulder tackled in which counted as the first stun. Worked as a charm. With your reasoning: when a tank flashes in T7 and picks up a renaud which he shouldn't, flash now is counter productive? I think you're reasoning is a bit biased. :P

Don't get me wrong, I looove MNK. Just posted my vanity in the vanity thread because I like the job so much. I just don't think it would be balanced if we could teleport to every mob and back to the boss. For endgame it would be massively overpowered unless they would nerf our potency which would be far worse than having shoulder tackle at 30 seconds.

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I think there are situations where we should chase mobs, most often in situations where we're the only other DPS. I say this because it seems kind of unfair(to the team as a whole) that I can't help out with burning adds simply because I can't reach them in time. Garuda's razor plumes, for example, are not a big deal in and of themselves, but it can be a little overwhelming to let an archer handle them on his/her own regardless of how weak they are. In this situation, a lancer has early access to a long range skill that they can put into effect(I don't know the name but I"m plenty sure yo know what I"m talking about ^^). But I don't think monks should have any sort of long range attack to mitigate this, simply because there's no logical need for it. If Shoulder Tackle were more intuitive to use, shorter cool down, shorter activation range(I'm talking about the need to be 100 miles away) at the cost of perhaps more TP and loss of stun effect it would be a lot more helpful.

And I don't know about the specifics of Levi. I haven't even done it. ^^ I was only going off of what monkeytheman was saying. It seems like you had a good opportunity to use it to its full effect, which I'm not going to refute. I don't know everything, especially not what other classes can use since I lack in the experience department, but I think that, in your situation if Shoulder Tackle did not have the stun effect, couldn't you just have easily zeroed in with Shoulder Tackle and then used Steal Peak? They're both instant casts and ogcd(right? I'm not playing right now so I'm only going off of memory).

As for teleporting to every mob and back to the boss; in theory that's exactly what one could do, but we're forgetting that TP starvation is real. lol As long as we're keeping up our GL stacks with the basic rotation(the cycling through each stance), our TP regeneration doesn't exactly exceed our usage and every ogcd thrown into the mix puts further strain on our TP consumption. We couldn't conceivably teleport to every enemy, kill it, and then move back to the boss. As a counter balance, I do propose an increase in the TP consumption of shoulder tackle to prevent this sort of abuse. There are situations where we will still lose our GL anyway, especially endgame, where bosses(at least the ones I've fought) move out of the arena and leave no targets behind. There's really nothing we can do in that situation.

However, I'm not saying my reasoning isn't biased. I'm still a little green and I don't know the mechanics of many of these dungeons since I generally don't run them anyway. I haven't even gotten past T1 because I've had no inclination to run the other 8 so I'll take your word on it.

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Originally Posted by Crxssroad

And I don't know about the specifics of Levi. I haven't even done it. ^^ I was only going off of what monkeytheman was saying. It seems like you had a good opportunity to use it to its full effect, which I'm not going to refute. I don't know everything, especially not what other classes can use since I lack in the experience department, but I think that, in your situation if Shoulder Tackle did not have the stun effect, couldn't you just have easily zeroed in with Shoulder Tackle and then used Steal Peak?

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Basically, the add should be stun-locked...and other people stunning make this impossible. When anyone other than the off-tank stuns it (should be a paladin handling it) it makes the chain stun ineffective, leading to the add fearing everyone off the boat. Dragoons and monks like to use Spineshatter and Shoulder-tackle for gap closers...but if they do it here (leg sweep and steel peak are no-no's as well here) it will wipe everyone if the dps isn't absurdly high. It isnt the skill's fault, its user error but it irks me every time i see it happen.

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Originally Posted by monkeytheman

Basically, the add should be stun-locked...and other people stunning make this impossible. When anyone other than the off-tank stuns it (should be a paladin handling it) it makes the chain stun ineffective, leading to the add fearing everyone off the boat. Dragoons and monks like to use Spineshatter and Shoulder-tackle for gap closers...but if they do it here (leg sweep and steel peak are no-no's as well here) it will wipe everyone if the dps isn't absurdly high. It isnt the skill's fault, its user error but it irks me every time i see it happen.

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Ah, no, I understood that the DPS shouldn't be stunning in this particular situation, steal peak(and leg sweep for dragoons) included. Abzoluut was telling me about a situation where shoulder tackle's stun had proven useful and I was only explaining how one could still use Shoulder Tackle to stun a far away target(by chaining Shoulder Tackle and Steal Peak) if Shoulder Tackle had its stun effect removed. Of course, this assumes steal peak is off cool down.

I'm not blaming the skill, particularly. It is up to the player whether to use it or not. I'm just saying that if a Monk stunning is disadvantageous in any given situation, then they lose the other benefit of Shoulder Tackle(which is honestly the more useful of the three things shoulder tackle does; zone-in/damage/stun).

P.S. This 1000 character limit is ridiculous.

I personally find the CD just about right, 30 sec goes by quick in a fight like T6 you can break vines/ST back easily. I wish DRG had something similar on a 30 sec CD (*cough* *cough* SSD *cough*) I do support removing the stun effect though, there's really no reason for it to stun, it's not a move you can actually use to stun something when needed, it just messes up stuns for things that do need to be stunned properly. Other than that, though, I think the range and CD are OK.

After thought: Even if the stun is designed for solo play, there isn't a first move positional like Heavy Thrust to even get off on monk. I guess unless you use PB, which is kinda silly for an open world mob anyways. Though I guess if you zipped around from mob to mob you might have a posititional ready where the stun would actually be useful and keep the mob from turning.

i love the stun effect in pvp but i would support losing it if ST gave 1 stack of GL.

SHOULDER TACKLE!!!

I've always maintained that Shoulder Tackle should be on a lower CD and have stun removed from it. Also on the topic of Greased Lightning I think it should be reduced to per buff level while at the same time either have it's duration extended or have the stacks decay individually. Either way making it easier to keep up.

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Originally Posted by monkeytheman

Shoulder Tackle.......hate it. Monks keep stunning the Wavetooth Sahagin with it in Leviathan EX and make me cry inside when I'm the offtank :P But seriously, I think it is fine how it is.....purpose is a gap closer......but please monks....STAHP using it to get to the caster add in Leviathan T.T

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Agreed. The stun is annoying as hell because then they use it as a gap-closer and make stuns ineffective.

I'm fine with shoulder tackle the way it is but I think increasing the stun time on it would solve a lot and it's a simple fix. mnks only mobility skill has a too many drawbacks in important situations. the stun time is too short to be used on t5 dreads and that one Levi add but it still has it's uses in the right conditions.

As someone who played monk pre 2.1 with Shoulder tackle being 90 sec CD, i think its pretty damn amazing now.

The thing with the stun on dps tools has always bugged me though, i wished they would find a solution for those tools to not give diminishing returns to the tanks stuns. Maybe use paralyze instead of stun or something.

All of you wanting the stun taken off of Shoulder Tackle makes me sad. It's useful for those moments where an add spawns and you need to get to it and stop it fast, and is especially useful if you have tanks who refuse to stun (which I happen to see all the time) or a Warrior as a tank (who can only stun once every 30 seconds). The stun is fine people, because if you want to nitpick like this then I guess I should be calling for a lower range on Provoke due to too many bad tanks using it to start a pull.

i think it's fine as it is, if the CD is any lower it'll be too good. Though if SE somehow decide to lower the CD and tune down the damage i wouldn't mind at all.

also the stun is excellent for PvP. Maybe in the future expansions you can augment your base skills, instead of stunning, you'll do silence..etc

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

All of you wanting the stun taken off of Shoulder Tackle makes me sad. It's useful for those moments where an add spawns and you need to get to it and stop it fast, and is especially useful if you have tanks who refuse to stun (which I happen to see all the time) or a Warrior as a tank (who can only stun once every 30 seconds). The stun is fine people, because if you want to nitpick like this then I guess I should be calling for a lower range on Provoke due to too many bad tanks using it to start a pull.

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I use Provoke to start pulls when I need to specifically grab a single mob that's out of range of Shield Lob; this doesn't really happen very often. Shortening the range on it honestly wouldn't do much. I'd shrug and find another way. Bad tanks would still use it to start pulls. The number of monks that I see using Shoulder Tackle constructively (i.e. stopping adds or stunning abilities) is vastly eclipsed by the number of them that simply use it as a lazy way to get from place to place, regardless of whether or not it will impede the off-tank trying to stun.

Just so you don't feel singled out, I see the same thing happen with Spineshatter Dive.

I like the skill a lot, just one thing is bugging me - the minimum required range to use the skill. It looks, feels and works odd when I run away few meters to just use the skill that actually should close the gap :D

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I use Provoke to start pulls when I need to specifically grab a single mob that's out of range of Shield Lob; this doesn't really happen very often.
Shortening the range on it honestly wouldn't do much. I'd shrug and find another way. Bad tanks would still use it to start pulls. The number of monks that I see using Shoulder Tackle constructively (i.e. stopping adds or stunning abilities) is vastly eclipsed by the number of them that simply use it as a lazy way to get from place to place, regardless of whether or not it will impede the off-tank trying to stun.

Just so you don't feel singled out, I see the same thing happen with Spineshatter Dive.

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Sadly I see it all the time with Provoke, as a lazy way to pull a mob that's within Shield Lob or Tomahawk distance. There's really no point IMO to nerf a skill (because taking off the stun WOULD be a nerf) just because players spam it in the wrong ways, otherwise we'd have to nerf Lustrate due to some SCHs using it whenever they have Aetherflow stacks, Provoke due to the previously mentioned bad tanks, Garuda-Egi due to bad players using it for multiple mobs (she's a single target master, use Ifrit-Egi and his cleave instead), etc.

The only way to fix this problem IMO would be if there was an instanced tutorial every time you got a new skill (and weren't currently in a duty/quest instance), and you had to complete it before you could enter any duty or complete/continue any quest. But I'm pretty sure people would get on my case for that as catering to casuals...which we sadly have to do if endgame DR is any indication. I see too many bad players nowadays, all day yesterday it was bad SMNs and SCHs, day before that was bad WHMs, day before that was bad WARs and PLDs...you get the point.

I want to cross class it as BLM so I can manawall tank more effectively.

The range requirement for Shoulder Tackle kinda makes sense:

(1) Its purpose is to act as a gap-closer, not a free off-GCD attack that you can weave in like DRG's Jumps.
(2) *Logically* the MNK needs the distance to create momentum of force. If you do it from melee-ish range it won't be a really 'strong' tackle.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

There's really no point IMO to nerf a skill (because taking off the stun WOULD be a nerf)

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It wouldnt be a nerf, quite the opposite actually, it would be a buff. The stuns in the melees tool kit actually have much more important utility in dps (leg sweep, steel peek, spineshatter dive) and closing gaps (shoulder tackle, spineshatter dive). The diminishing returns of stuns disables the use of those tools in some fights and causes a loss in sustained dps, (especially) burst dps and mobility, while the actual use of the stun is close to null due to the presence of tanks. Removing stun or trading it for something else would actually be beneficial for melees because of that.

Imagine if they'd put a stun on bio and fester, or lightning or bloodletter and not being able to use those tools in some fights.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

*Logically* the MNK needs the distance to create momentum of force. If you do it from melee-ish range it won't be a really 'strong' tackle.

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Maybe if it was an actual "shoulder tackle" (like Steel Peak). But in actuality Shoulder Tackle is a palm strike, which could very much be done from melee range at full effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

It wouldnt be a nerf, quite the opposite actually, it would be a buff. The stuns in the melees tool kit actually have much more important utility in dps (leg sweep, steel peek, spineshatter dive) and closing gaps (shoulder tackle, spineshatter dive). The diminishing returns of stuns disables the use of those tools in some fights and causes a loss in sustained dps, (especially) burst dps and mobility, while the actual use of the stun is close to null due to the presence of tanks. Removing stun or trading it for something else would actually be beneficial for melees because of that.

Imagine if they'd put a stun on bio and fester, or lightning or bloodletter and not being able to use those tools in some fights.

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This is kinda how I feel about it. The only reason I care about the stun is the diminishing returns on it. I'd love to be able to weave in Leg Sweep and Spineshatter on DRG whenever I please, but if the mob has something that the tank is supposed to stun, you have to completely forego them or risk interfering with the tank.

The diminishing returns on stun are really unforgiving, too. What, three or four stuns till they become useless?

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Originally Posted by ksufoley

I wouldn't mind if it didn't do anything else but get us back in the fight. A shorter cd and no attack would be fine with me just to keep stacks. Frustrating to lose it in titan honestly. And I agree, stun can have is purpose but it's almost ineffective when linked to shoulder tackle, I don't run away just to try and stun anything really unless it's pvp

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My static's monk used to use it for stun on dreadknights in T5 when there was a Twister along with dreadknight, but other than that, yeah, he just uses it as a gap closer.

Personally I don't like how they put Stuns on gap-closers or how it cancels when an enemy walks to close when you're casting it. The stun really pisses me off sometimes especially on stuff that needs to be chain stunned by the Paladin. If you need to get to something and stun it you can always Shoulder Tackle into Steel Peak/Spineshatter Dive into Leg Sweep. As for PVP they could always just leave it on for that like how some skills don't work in PVP etc.

..............TLDR

Most Stuff That Matters is immune to stun, and stunning trash shouldn't ruin the game for anybody. If an add needs to be stunned for some reason, find another way to maintain your combo without depending on Shoulder Tackle: eg. anticipate which side the add will appear on Levi and engage Levi on that side until it pops.

I like the stun. You can interrupt annoying spells or abilities at range or pin a moving target to finish a waning combo. It serves a purpose; you just have to ask yourself or your tank if stun will be an issue and change your approach. Don't tackle Diabolos (you don't need to). Don't tackle Captain Piss Crystals (you don't need to). Don't tackle dungeon boss X with stunnable mechanic Y - you don't need to and if you really gotta stun something, stun the adds that pop later.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

eg. anticipate which side the add will appear on Levi and engage Levi on that side until it pops.

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Bad example. If monk's attack the head, they're gonna be taking a lot of damage.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Bad example. If monk's attack the head, they're gonna be taking a lot of damage.

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Why would a monk take a lot of damage from attacking the head of Leviathan? If they sit on the flank they shouldn't take any damage at all unless the tank is bad and aiming Dread Tide at you. Melee can attack the head or tail without worry of damage reflect. The only concern here is losing the ability to do rear positionals, but if you're just one the head for a short time while waiting for the add it's not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

Why would a monk take a lot of damage from attacking the head of Leviathan? If they sit on the flank they shouldn't take any damage at all unless the tank is bad and aiming Dread Tide at you.

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I agree but disagree because some tanks don't know that, nearly most runs I've been in have had me die generally because I'm doing my gyme murdering job and dread tide comes in like a wrecking ball. A few tanks do do it, and always remind, I go a different rotation on them now but yeah. Happens more then you think, though, shoulder barging the head's never been an issue as I've seen.

Also, SB stuns are something I don't mind as long as they aren't just spammed constantly on the wrong MOB. I think it's fine, as there are only specific situations in which you have to NOT use it. Levi mobs, ifrit for null stuns past 3 consecutive hits. Honestly, it's also very useful in those instances in used correctly or asked for.

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Originally Posted by Fire-Brand

I agree but disagree because some tanks don't know that, nearly most runs I've been in have had me die generally because I'm doing my gyme murdering job and dread tide comes in like a wrecking ball. A few tanks do do it, and always remind, but yeah. Happens more then you think, though, shoulder barging the head's never been an issue as I've seen.

Also, SB stuns are something I don't mind as long as they aren't just spammed constantly on the wrong MOB. I think it's fine, as there are only specific situations in which you have to NOT use it. Levi mobs, ifrit for null stuns past 3 consecutive hits. Honestly, it's also very useful in those instances in used correctly or asked for.

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Well Dread Tide is a line AOE so unless the tank is standing on the flank facing the inside the platform you shouldn't get hit by it ever while attacking the head on the flank. Even in the worst runs I've been in I've never been hit by Dread Tide by attacking the head on the flank. Now I do agree that there's a lot of tanks that are bad and face it the wrong way and hit people over by the tail from facing it in that direction instead of aiming it to shoot out of the back of the platform.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

Well Dread Tide is a line AOE so unless the tank is standing on the flank facing the inside the platform you should get hit by it ever while attacking the head on the flank. Even in the worst runs I've been in I've never been hit by Dread Tide by attacking the head on the flank. Now I do agree that there's a lot of tanks that are bad and face it the wrong way and hit people over by the tail from facing it in that direction instead of aiming it to shoot out of the back of the platform.

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Aww man, so lucky then. I've had MT's run over and try to help with the fear monger and just wipe the group with dread tide. Good intentions, bad results and all that. Pretty grim tales.:c

You're mainly right, if you have a solid tank, that'll be the situation, but that RARELY happens for me in that run, and when it does I thank them, because other people have told me it's partially the same deal.

But I'll stop side tracking now.:p

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Originally Posted by Fire-Brand

Aww man, so lucky then. I've had MT's run over and try to help with the fear monger and just wipe the group with dread tide. Good intentions, bad results and all that. Pretty grim tales.:c

You're mainly right, if you have a solid tank, that'll be the situation, but that RARELY happens for me in that run, and when it does I thank them, because other people have told me it's partially the same deal.

But I'll stop side tracking now.:p

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Well it's a valid enough point in such a scenario, but I believe the other person might have been confused on the damage reflect buffs on Leviathan which do not effect melee attacks. That's mainly all I was getting at.