Should level 55 job abilities be overpowered, but content made more difficult?

Or should we get the OP abilities when level cap reaches 99 whenever that is?

It's clear summoners are getting a new egi, but will the egis be OP?
Should white mages get something like an ability that makes stoneskin AoE?
Monks getting a cooldown that allows greased lightning to stack to four for 20 seconds?

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Originally Posted by Altijacek

Or should we get the OP abilities when level cap reaches 99 whenever that is?

It's clear summoners are getting a new egi, but will the egis be OP?
Should white mages get something like an ability that makes stoneskin AoE?
Monks getting a cooldown that allows greased lightning to stack to four for 20 seconds?

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OP is very subjective. Each ability has its share of weight to counter the effect.

White Mages had such an ability at one time, and it wasn't OP. The drawback was it doubled both cast time and MP consumption, thus balancing it out.
Given that GL is an integral part of the PGL class, allowing it to last 20 seconds would be more of a QoL fix than anything else. Right now PGL suffers from fights with delays (where the mob becomes untargetable). An extension to GL would be beneficial even today.

The abilities of post level cap increase will likely just be abilities rehashed from 1.# (would so love to have the AoE buff of White Mage back, AoE Stoneskin {Yes, please.}) or third actions to existing two action combos. The egis would naturally be balanced against the current egis to make them unique but not invalidate current egis. Understand that this game is balanced against PvE and iLevel (as much as iLevel is a crutch...), yet has to remember that there's a PvP element now that's growing ever more popular. You can't just drop in stronger and stronger abilities without broad and reaching consequences.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Given that GL is an integral part of the PGL class, allowing it to last 20 seconds would be more of a QoL fix than anything else. Right now PGL suffers from fights with delays (where the mob becomes untargetable). An extension to GL would be beneficial even today.

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It's been stated by the devs that monks are balanced around losing GL stacks. They aren't intended to maintain it at all times thoughout a fight. That's why they got that 10% damage buff a while back. They're currently the highest damage role in the game so to give them higher uptime on GL would be the very definition of OP.

I don't see why new skills in the expansion have to be OP though... SMN egis need a major rebalancing pass to give them varying roles rather than having one always be 'better' (i.e. garuda-egi for everything). A new egi would ideally offer a new utility of some kind or be useful in a certain situation (such as having one dedicated to single target and another dedicated to AOE, etc.)

Any other new skills can be as powerful as the devs want them to be as long as they have a sufficient cost associated with using them. Most MMOs usually offer at least one game-changing new skill though, as opposed to just another DOT to throw in your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

It's been stated by the devs that monks are balanced around losing GL stacks. They aren't intended to maintain it at all times thoughout a fight. That's why they got that 10% damage buff a while back. They're currently the highest damage role in the game so to give them higher uptime on GL would be the very definition of OP.

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This was a popular theory early on when people were discussing QoL changes for Monk, but I don't remember the devs ever saying that nor could anyone ever link me when I asked (and an internet/forum search anyways fell short). It always sounded like pure conjecture to me.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

This was a popular theory early on when people were discussing QoL changes for Monk, but I don't remember the devs ever saying that nor could anyone ever link me when I asked (and an internet/forum search anyways fell short). It always sounded like pure conjecture to me.

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I'm sure it's taken into account...but you can't balance based on losing GL because a fair number of encounters in the game allow for a decent MNK to fulltime GL the entire fight. Though perhaps they are and that leads partially into why they are currently the number one DPS for a lot of endgame encounters. It's balanced for loss of GL but the good MNKs AREN'T losing it.

...what?

No abilities should be overpowered, especially not intentionally. And even if they were, you said the difficulty should be raised to compensate, so you've effectively changed nothing. I don't understand this post.

No.
Power Creep should be avoided as much as possible.
We're already having too much in gear, if we had it with abilities too it would get ridiculous even faster than it already is.

No abilities should be overpowered, but every job should have abilities that feel overpowered.

Forget overpowered skills. We need useful skills, harder/more complex content, and gear sets with skill/stat benefits.

Hopefully we get growth elements of some sort and they adjust the entire battle system as well as a new ability or two. Some added depth would be welcomed.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

No.
Power Creep should be avoided as much as possible.
We're already having too much in gear, if we had it with abilities too it would get ridiculous even faster than it already is.

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I agree. I think ultimately it comes down to what would motivate a player more to level a job past 50 rather that a player thinking "Ugh! I don't want to climb more 'mountain!' It's just too damn much!"

I hope not. I would like abilities that make the job more stand out
and give you a real feeling that "hey this really is something different
from the classes." Some jobs like War already have a stance that makes
it play a lot different than the class. Things like this that least to quite
a differentiation are pretty neat.

EDIT: next two paragraphs is just random thinking

Maybe in the future they could also find ways to make classes stand
on their own a bit more. There are a few cases that this works, but not often.
As I know that classes are for lighter or solo content, sometimes the job
still outweighs the benefit of using a class.

I may just have that feeling because most classes only have one job atm
meaning there is actually only one intended way of playings. Perhaps some
player chosen customisation could fix that flaw in my mind: quest to enhance
certain aspects of your class/job, but you have to choose, so that not everyone
is the same.

I can see it now, they give us these really cool skills that will synergize with others classes in interesting ways that give us all kinds of new strategic ways to play- and and the same time they push out more gear progression upgrades gated behind us running level synch'd fates and low level dungeons like with the whole relic upgrade 'I just got here and now you want me to go back???' debacle.

This game has sorta shot itself in the foot with the Class/Job system. I honestly don't see them ever releasing additional 1st tier jobs (ie PLD, WHM, BLM, etc) for any existing class, for instance (without reworking the entire system). Then, gear iLvl will make no sense once actual character level starts to increase (if I'm level 60, is iLvl 60 gear good enough? Probably not as the dungeons for Level 60 characters will assume everyone's in iLvl 115+ gear, etc).

The entire system is severely flawed without a serious overhaul.

I'm more interested in how we are going to continue job quests and the such? - OR how we are going to gain new abilities.

The majority of level 50 job quests finished their storyline - white mage performed the ritual, bard accepted his past etc etc ... Wonder if they will continue to teach us or will we have a new trainer..

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Originally Posted by TheMunimai

I'm more interested in how we are going to continue job quests and the such? - OR how we are going to gain new abilities.

The majority of level 50 job quests finished their storyline - white mage performed the ritual, bard accepted his past etc etc ... Wonder if they will continue to teach us or will we have a new trainer..

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Remember that Jobs are just modifications of the classes. Further quests could have us return to the class tutors, continue the stories there.

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Originally Posted by Tenebrisme

Forget overpowered skills. We need useful skills, harder/more complex content, and gear sets with skill/stat benefits.

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I'm hard pressed to find a group that can clear Turn 6 and you want harder content? Go run Savage Coil. Unfortunately I don't see them ever really putting skill buffs on gear because this game does not allow gear swaps in combat meaning either people would start expecting you to continue using a gimped piece of gear after it's been obsoleted (see XI's Thief's Knife) or the skill boost would only be useful until the next ilevel bump. Given that they'd likely also offset the skill bonus by decreasing the stats on the gear a lot of people might not even bother unless the bonus to the ability was substantial enough to warrant losing the main/secondary stats on the rest of their attacks.

What's more likely is the introduction of skill trees though that would cause the inevitable whining on the forums about why can't we max all our skill trees? :P Even in FFXI people whined about not being able to max out every ability/stat boost in the merit point categories...

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Originally Posted by TheMunimai

I'm more interested in how we are going to continue job quests and the such? - OR how we are going to gain new abilities.

The majority of level 50 job quests finished their storyline - white mage performed the ritual, bard accepted his past etc etc ... Wonder if they will continue to teach us or will we have a new trainer..

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New Bard NPC:

http://media.ifccenter.com/images/fi...ts_592x299.jpg

New White Mage NPC:

http://www.hwdyk.com/q/images/treeho...orror10_13.jpg

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Originally Posted by Darki

I agree. I think ultimately it comes down to what would motivate a player more to level a job past 50 rather that a player thinking "Ugh! I don't want to climb more 'mountain!' It's just too damn much!"

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The motivation would be the ability to run the newest dungeons/raids since they'd inevitably be balanced based on higher actual level and therefore players having acquired the new abilities. Even if the dungeon might be equivalent to say an i80ish minimum dungeon they'd be expecting players to have the new abilities and certain monsters/bosses might be impossible to clear without them. The top tier raid would likely be balanced assuming a level maxed character and likely people having whatever new skills are cross classable just like they did with current Coil Turns. Climb the mountain or be left behind.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Remember that Jobs are just modifications of the classes. Further quests could have us return to the class tutors, continue the stories there.

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I didn't even consider this - Well played Gilraen - well played...

For me, what's important is whether the new skills are just extra additions without modifying current play style or mixes it up instead. Like, instead of getting another off gcd skill that you add in to your weave ins for more single target/aoe damage, they add something like:

-warriors getting a somewhat short cooldown skill that costs 1 wrath, making them choose between full speed wrath build up or constantly getting the effect this skill provides but slowing down on hitting max wrath.
-dragoons getting a skill that makes the dragoon jump into the air and not return for a period, breaking his rotation completely but modifying some of his existing moves (mid air spear throw?), adding some effects that makes this skill somehow useful.
-black mages getting an ability that adds multiple stages of astral and umbral mechanics back into their rotation instead of the current instant 3 stacks of umbral and astral at current max leve, possibly playing with plus and minus.

Level 55 Job quest, I don't care if you give me a new skill, lower Enkindle CD please....

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

This game has sorta shot itself in the foot with the Class/Job system. I honestly don't see them ever releasing additional 1st tier jobs (ie PLD, WHM, BLM, etc) for any existing class, for instance (without reworking the entire system). Then, gear iLvl will make no sense once actual character level starts to increase (if I'm level 60, is iLvl 60 gear good enough? Probably not as the dungeons for Level 60 characters will assume everyone's in iLvl 115+ gear, etc).

The entire system is severely flawed without a serious overhaul.

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We get stronger, enter mroe dangerous places, get better loot, why is this a bad thing ?, why would i want to be constantly shot in power with dungeons weve done many times over, whats wrong with ripping the old stuff quickly, old is old.

At this point, no class should have abilities added for the sake of damage. Any new abilities would be for utility.

And no ability should be OP at any time. Not sure where you got that idea from.

The OP is also assuming the level cap is being raised to 55 - May go up to 60 anything is possible at this stage.

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

This game has sorta shot itself in the foot with the Class/Job system. I honestly don't see them ever releasing additional 1st tier jobs (ie PLD, WHM, BLM, etc) for any existing class, for instance (without reworking the entire system). .

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People really say this alot and sometimes I wonder do they actual have the idea themselves are pick it up from someone else. The system can work because it is working now, they can release how you put it a 1st tier job and just put it behind some gate besides quests if they want to limit access to it initially. The level grind avoided is not an issue more so then being fun to play as they can make job exceptions that do no effect the other side of the line besides the choice of the 30 stat points which will become more and more marginal as the gear gets stronger.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

We get stronger, enter mroe dangerous places, get better loot, why is this a bad thing ?, why would i want to be constantly shot in power with dungeons weve done many times over, whats wrong with ripping the old stuff quickly, old is old.

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Because difficulty should scale in content, not equips.
That's what a lot of F2P MMOs don't understand and it's a reason why there's a new cycle of OP Gear/Impossible Content every quarter. It gets old fast and when you have the gear, there's no challenge without one-shot mechanics. Why bother dodging an AoE when it hits you for less than half as much and your healer heals more than twice as much as he did before?

Equips shouldn't overshadow content.
I'd like to say Tera is at least a decent example of this. Running Manaya's Core HM is still somewhat tricky if you don't know the fight, regardless of how high your ilvl is.

The new skills should just build around the current ones. For example you get a move at 55 and 60. At the end of, say the RoH combo, you would get a new choice between two new skills.

Mostly though I just want interesting new areas to explore.

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Originally Posted by Darki

New Bard NPC:

http://media.ifccenter.com/images/fi...ts_592x299.jpg

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I would switch instant to bard if that would be true. but only if the whole crew is there as well. They love to sing after all and a bard is supposed to sing.

I would love it if they can increase level cap every few patches (think 6m to 12 months)

Maybe they can can give us new job quest that'll eventually lead to unlocking a new skill and trait?

Id rather endure the long and slow grind to reach max level. It'll give us a reason to run dungeons AND FATE s. Best of all they can give is a new main story max lv dungeon where we can test our new skill and spell

No, I don't think that would really help anything at all. On top of which we need them to compartmentalize a lot of the abilities for the different classes, because right now there is hardly any room to add new abilities. The hot bar of any level 50 monk is a walking testimony of ability bloat run rampant, and would surely terrify even the most adamant of gamers if they were forced to balance any more buffs, DoTs, or debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

It's been stated by the devs that monks are balanced around losing GL stacks. They aren't intended to maintain it at all times thoughout a fight. That's why they got that 10% damage buff a while back. They're currently the highest damage role in the game so to give them higher uptime on GL would be the very definition of OP.

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Wrong, there's a difference between Damage and DPS. When it comes to raw damage, Monks have the worst Damage potential. Their highest potency attack is Snap Punch 190 when executed from the back. 285 potency when critted. The reasons why monks have the highest DPS is because they do moderately high numbers all the time in rapid succession for as long as they have their GL3 Stacks not to mention their above average dots. i'd say that about 90% percent of fights, DRG and SMN Top the DPS Charts with MNK close behind and BLM Last. In fights like t8 where the fight is basically a punching bag, Monks dominate DPS.

Pretty much everyone is screwing up damage and DPS term wise

damage is ALPHA damage, those big numbers on ur screen, Alpha = burst = DRG, BRD, BLM
DPS is SUSTAINED damage, those pathetic insignificant numbers that spammable, Sustained = MNK SUM

I would like to see new abilities that expand the functionality of classes rather than making them more "OP". I would like to see more varied encounter design that is not (strictly) a Dodge Dodge Revolution* pattern and actually lets us utilize class mechanics outside of our basic roles, not "more OP" enemies.

*I have no problem with dodge fights, but a lot of the recent fights I've done and seen videos of feel like they lean really obsessively on new forms of "avoid the bad mechanic on this flowchart or everyone dies" mechanics without actually teaching us any new skills. And it's honestly become boring. There are exceptions, but they seem to be mostly gear checks. Meanwhile, I haven't found an important mob who isn't immune to Feint, or any noteworthy exception where the Black Mage's 5 crowd control skills (much less those of anyone else in the game) are relevant.