Where do dungeons fit in this game SE?

So since the release of the hunts obviously everyone has further realized the lack of purpose that dungeons had in the endgame. But even prior to the hunt I think they still did not fit into the game with importance.

Their only real purpose since launch was speedruns for tomes, the rewards and mobs themselves have never been anything special and its a shame because the enviroments and design clearly display the amount of effort dumped into them.

I can't think of a way right now to make them a significant piece of the game like primals and raids at all, hopefully SE or even the community will by 2.4 or 2.5, but Its safe to say at this point dungeons are a part of the game that have yet to find their place.

I think they're visually incredible, but now lack a reason to do them more than once now that speedrunning isnt the most efficient option for tome cap, but realistically speedrunning is an awful purpose to have in the first place and SE themselves never actually wanted it to be that way....so what do you want done with them SE?

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Originally Posted by Chrisbox

(Dungeons) only real purpose since launch was speedruns for tomes, the rewards and mobs themselves have never been anything special and its a shame because the enviroments and design clearly display the amount of effort dumped into them.

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That's not true.
I think the dungeons are fun.
I like to run them just because I get to run them with other people. Some folks are hilariously fun to run with, others are just hilariously bad at this game :)

The rewards are nice and all as well... but they're just bonuses, not the point of running them. This is an MMO... a video game where you get to interact with other people. The point of the dungeons is to setup an area in the game where it's easy to interact and play with other people. The dungeons and roulette system do an acceptable job at that.

For me, anyway... obviously your evaluation differs.

If you don't like them, don't run them... there's lots of other junk to do in this game.
But, no... you don't get to say they have yet to find their place in some sort of absolute-Final-Fantasy sense just because you personally don't like their reward system.

Dungeons also offer desynth fodder, exclusive minions, and are a continuation of training for endgame content where guildhests leave off. They are also the fastest level up areas (pre 50). What else would you like them to do?

I think of course they have their place.

Dungeons are the best way to learn the class while you level, and you also obtain useful loot. When you are already level 50, there is also some progression for practice and learning and you obtain the tomes. And if the level cap is made higher, as they say, dungeons will probably be a great place to level (new dungeons will come, or/and the existent ones may be modified.)

EX Primals and Raids offer the highest difficulty, the difficult ones need usually a static group, group learning and progression that dungeons don't.

Maybe hunts are the quickest way to obtain tomes, gear, etc. now, but having other choices doesn't hurt. The more options, the better.

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Originally Posted by JonBigwood

Dungeons are the best way to learn the class while you level, and you also obtain useful loot.

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This. I understand where OP is coming from, but dungeons are critical for levelling and learning your class. Sure you can FATE/Hunt/FannyAround your way to 50, but for the love of all things sensible, you gotta run those dungies so you can actually play your role properly.
And yeah, wilst levelling those other classes, its the cheap way to get gear - most people are greeding for seals (from roulette entries) so 9/10 you get your piece as need when you are the lowbie grinding your way on your new class.

still use them for tomes cos hunts are too boring and the character rendering is worse than odin/behemoth used to be

Dungeons are being destroyed by hunts. Average wait times are over 30 mins to an hour at best on story mode dungeons now on my server even selecting all languages, I feel sorry for people who are leveling and trying to get story mode dungeons done my friend had a huge wait on titan normal for story progression. I've given up on animus books for now in the hope something will be done to improve this. At least my gathering and crafting is being leveled. To answer OP first run through the game dungeons are fun with story but then they're mainly tome grind or animus grind.

Different peoples may see this game from totally different angle's , OP dungeons may be not main part of game you , but for me - 90% of game is dungeons

Hunts teach you nothing
Dungeons teach you how to work together as a small group and improve on your personal skills of your class
Raids teach you the above except with more ppl, how to be a better aoe dodger and how to deal with mechanics via cheesing or doing it the intended way.

Soooo if there was no CM and PM, AK, WP, AV, tam tara hm, brayflox hm, CT, ST, temple of quarn and DD; what else would ppl rave about on these forums?
Cuz i remember i had way loads of more fun when i do tam tara hm when compared to a hunt i can't even see.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Hunts teach you nothing
Dungeons teach you how to work together as a small group and improve on your personal skills of your class
Raids teach you the above except with more ppl, how to be a better aoe dodger and how to deal with mechanics via cheesing or doing it the intended way.

Soooo if there was no CM and PM, AK, WP, AV, tam tara hm, brayflox hm, CT, ST, temple of quarn and DD; what else would ppl rave about on these forums?
Cuz i remember i had way loads of more fun when i do tam tara hm when compared to a hunt i can't even see.

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SE even said themselves though-dungeons were never intended to be speedrun fodder hence the counters they put in place so in reality they have never had a real purpose implemented by SE because that was their only use. Now SE has implemented that tome grinder outside of dungeons, so even the playerbase can't create a use for them. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot of revamps in the dungeons systems come 2.4.

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Originally Posted by Sassi666

Dungeons are being destroyed by hunts. Average wait times are over 30 mins to an hour at best on story mode dungeons now on my server even selecting all languages, I feel sorry for people who are leveling and trying to get story mode dungeons done my friend had a huge wait on titan normal for story progression.

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I don't think I've ever waited more than 10 minutes for story roulette, even queueing as a Dragoon.

@OP - plenty of people are going for Novus, which means Expert Roulette is a must. The myth tomes you get are really good too, especially if you hop into story roulette and have a newbie in the party. I'll take 230 myth for a 20-30 minute dungeon (40 if they watch the cut scenes, but that doesn't bug me). Hunting is intensely cut-throat on a lot of levels. I know that I personally get mentally fatigued by doing it long-term. Yes, the rewards are awesome but it's not really what I'd call fun a lot of the time. It's a flat-out non-stop grind.

Also consider that slow loaders never make it to mobs before they're dead; I built a gaming PC just a few months ago and I still don't make it half the time during prime time. PS3 players don't stand a chance.

Basically, dungeons are there to offer options. Options are good. Variety is good.

Would you really be fine just doing hunts and fates forever?I would quit, because it would feel like a waste of time at that point.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

Would you really be fine just doing hunts and fates forever?I would quit, because it would feel like a waste of time at that point.

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I'm not saying they should remove them, just find a real use for them. Like I said in my previous reply SE really has not displayed where they want dungeons to fit into the grand scheme of things, they're kind of just..there.

They are fun, with pretty scenery and cool vanity gear.

Dungeons pretty much are worthless in this game. Outside the daily DR, the only reason to do them is to SR for tomes. The gear (if your even lucky enough to get it to drop) is so laughably outdated it's pointless. Literally every dungeon since 2.1 that was added was obsolete in it's rewards the second it hit, and you only ran them to try and grind out tomes.

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Originally Posted by sheepysheepy

still use them for tomes cos hunts are too boring and the character rendering is worse than odin/behemoth used to be

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You said it. That's EXACTLY what this is. Odin and Behemoth spawning every day.

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Originally Posted by Chrisbox

SE even said themselves though-dungeons were never intended to be speedrun fodder hence the counters they put in place so in reality they have never had a real purpose implemented by SE because that was their only use. Now SE has implemented that tome grinder outside of dungeons, so even the playerbase can't create a use for them. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lot of revamps in the dungeons systems come 2.4.

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:P I think its funny you started a discussion on the topic, got several good arguments, quoted one of them, and then just kept talking to yourself instead of with anyone else in the thread lol

That said, I can understand your position: if the main focus of dungeons are the tomestones and you can get the tomestones elsewhere than why do the dungeons? I'd offer the counter argument of variety. Things get boring when there's only one option. I for one and thrilled that there are so many ways to get tomestones. I can go about my day, do a couple dungeons, knock out some hunts, treasure chests, CT, PvP...without even realizing it I hit the solidarity cap without anything feeling like a grind. That wouldn't be possible unless all these different features contributed some tomestones.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

That said, I can understand your position: if the main focus of dungeons are the tomestones and you can get the tomestones elsewhere than why do the dungeons? I'd offer the counter argument of variety.

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It's really hard to approach this kind of topic and respond to every reply due to dungeons lack of place in the endgame primarily. The importance of dungeons is currently in the eye of the beholder because SE hasn't given us a definite use for them, On one hand someone is correct in saying dungeons are essential to helping people learn their class during leveling however that shouldn't be taken into consideration at this stage in dev.

Apparently there's also people here that think they're actually rewarding......

Variety is another thing that you just can't provide a definite response for, one might think there is enough different ways to cap out tomes and others may not. For me I don't think variety is a good enough reason to have something, its a good thing but not a real purpose.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

Dungeons pretty much are worthless in this game. Outside the daily DR, the only reason to do them is to SR for tomes. The gear (if your even lucky enough to get it to drop) is so laughably outdated it's pointless. Literally every dungeon since 2.1 that was added was obsolete in it's rewards the second it hit, and you only ran them to try and grind out tomes.

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Dungeons are great for lvling and drop crafting mats. You're supposed to work toward gearing up for CT2 and coil so it is normal that you will not get BIS gear there. For those like me who hates Hunts, it is a great alternative for farming soldiery and mythology stones.

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Originally Posted by Chrisbox

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Originally Posted by Chrisbox

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Variety is ALWAYS a good thing. There's no argument against that. Also, you didn't expect dungeons to drop BIS gear did you?

edit: actually I'm just repeating what other people already said in this thread lol! The purpose of dungeons is pretty obvious to see.

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Originally Posted by Chrisbox

Apparently there's also people here that think they're actually rewarding......

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Let me ask you, what do you think the purpose of dungeons should be? And what do you think should be changed to make them fill that purpose?

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For me I don't think variety is a good enough reason to have something, its a good thing but not a real purpose.

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I'll assume you eat the same meal for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and snacks every day? :P I'd say give that a shot. Afterward I would love to hear your thoughts on variety.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

Let me ask you, what do you think the purpose of dungeons should be? And what do you think should be changed to make them fill that purpose?



I'll assume you eat the same meal for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and snacks every day? :P I'd say give that a shot. Afterward I would love to hear your thoughts on variety.

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If you read my first post...or any of them you'd see I said I have no clue where to make them fit into this game, and no I don't expect them to drop BiS or anything dumb like that. The people that asked what I would like them to do don't understand my position. I'd like a reason to do them more than once. I literally have no idea what should be done with them, but saying they have a real purpose in the endgame right now is just flatout wrong. I need to go edit the initial post and throw the word endgame in there i guess to streamline the focus.

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Originally Posted by Chrisbox

If you read my first post...or any of them you'd see I said I have no clue where to make them fit into this game, and no I don't expect them to drop BiS or anything dumb like that. The people that asked what I would like them to do don't understand my position. I'd like a reason to do them more than once. I literally have no idea what should be done with them, but saying they have a real purpose in the endgame right now is just flatout wrong. I need to go edit the initial post and throw the word endgame in there i guess to streamline the focus.

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Let's pretend that you are right: how would you make them useful at lvl 50?

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Originally Posted by Rainsworth

Let's pretend that you are right: how would you make them useful at lvl 50?

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"I literally have no idea.." Taken from the post you quoted....Tell me about how much dungeons have done for you at level 50 recently? Or perhaps lets throwback with earlier patches to the super awesome 2.0 CM speedruns, AK speedruns, brayflox.....Don't forget though, speedrunning was never SE's purpose with level 50 dungeons ladies and gents, they haven't figured one out yet and that's the point here.

Don't get me wrong either- I'm not gonna unsub if they don't change dungeons, I enjoyed my run throughs of all the recently released ones, nor am I here to put down everyone that enjoys dungeons on the reg. I'm pointing out a part of the game that SE hasn't touched on, its important that the community lets devs know when something is lacking in importance especially in a game thats very early in the development process, who knows how it'll evolve in the coming years.

inb4 someone else asks me what I would do

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Originally Posted by Chrisbox

"I literally have no idea.." Taken from the post you quoted....

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Why do you think people are doing speedruns? What's the purpose of your thread if you have no idea what they should do with dungeons?

BTW I do dungeons everyday.

Hi. I see what you mean about dungeons in end game. For a high ilvl player the Expert dungeons are too easy (though in DF you can find vote abandons) and the loot is not important except for retainers, alt classes, gil, etc. The tome farm is the big goal. A good thing is that you easily cap the soldiery tomes, so there's no need to grind and repeat content if you don't like to.

I would have liked the new Expert Dungeons to be a bit more difficult. Maybe have better drops too, but that would be a conflict with Syrcus Tower, that has a weekly cap for loot. Soldiery tomes are a good reward.

Balancing the difficulty is not easy, look what happened with Pharos Sirius when launched, it was a bit too difficult compared to the similar dungeons and people didn't want to do it. The best players will always find a dungeon a bit easy if more average players with the same ilvl are able to win.

Dungeons have to be easy enough so that you can reasonably expect to win with a duty finder group. There's sort of a gap between instances that are a bit too easy and those that practically require a Party Finder or static group and a lot of practice like Ex Primals or T5 and higher.

There's also the need that new players have to be able to eventually catch up (with effort and time) and don't have an eternal disadvantage compared to the ones that started to play some months before. Adding too quickly new higher gear and putting high ilvl requirements could make more difficult to catch up, but of course it can be fine tuned with time.

Probably with time and more new dungeons the difficulty may be set in more number of steps and hopefully new more difficult dungeons with better drops may come.

On the other hand, there are lots of things to do and different ways to obtain the things you need, which is fine.

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If you read my first post...or any of them you'd see I said I have no clue where to make them fit into this game...I'm pointing out a part of the game that SE hasn't touched on, its important that the community lets devs know when something is lacking

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I definitely appreciate this. Feedback from the players can be really helpful for developers, just like in any other creative profession. That said, imagine you were a painter and asked for input on a painting you had just made for a living room and the person tells you "This painting just doesn't work in this living room". You ask why and they say, "I don't know. It just doesn't work." Would you find that very helpful? Wouldn't it only be helpful if the person explains why? "Its too big for the space." or "The colors don't match" is the kind of feedback they would need in order to correct the problem.

Other players in this thread have given detailed counter-arguments; The list so far is that dungeons are for fun, desynth fodder, minions, training, leveling up, useful gear, tomestones, relic weapons, variety, and crafting mats, but your whole argument so far is "No they aren't!". Everyone else is saying the painting looks great in the living room, so if the artist is going to change it he'll need more from you than "I don't argree." Why don't you agree?

Edit: Fixed typo, included more in quote box.

I agree with the OP dungeons aren't really that important. Sure you CAN grind dungeons for tomes and you CAN grind them for vanity but really that's not that great of a thing. Getting mats from dungeons isn't a very stable way to get them since everyone is going to need on them. I'd thing dungeons would have a greater impact if the gear you get from them was seen as more than "vanity" if it was actually useful but that's not the case, I think this problem has less to do with dungeon themselves and as more to do with the easy of access of i90 gear.

for crafting mats , because thats what the only thing that drops there nowdays

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

for crafting mats , because thats what the only thing that drops there nowdays

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Yeah the rng in this game seems so broken. Past couple days of DF expert dungeons I've seen an average of 1 gear drop per run with the rest of the loot being crafting materials. And yesterday I did Stone Vigil and it dropped no gear at all lol. But then again it should be expected when most crafting skills that supposedly have a 90% success rate actually only succeed about 75% of the time in my experience (Especially love the failing a 90% success rate move 4 times in a row. That never gets old)

I think the OPs problem with dungeons is they are inherently pointless as far as the world is concerned. Sure they drop shinies for people but thats all they seem to be. A funnel for the game to throw shinies at you. There's no depth to these dungeons at all. Why are they there? Why do I need to do them? What difference is there if I do them or not? (aside from shinies)

I know they all have their own mini-stories but that gets thrown out the window with having to skip cut scenes and the sheer amount of times you constantly repeat each one. That completely negates any real meaningful purpose for them other than shinies.

I could be wrong but that was always my problem with this game. Every thing is so rapid fire and quick that you never get a sense of why you have to do these things, other than its required to get certain shinies. That problem plagues the entire game really.

If its time to get i100 gear and the full set was buried in a series of story driven adventures that required a couple of weeks for the average player to achieve I think that would give more of a sense of scale and accomplishment that repeating the same tired areas does not. You could leave dungeon spamming for tomes and desynths or what not...but doing it to gain ilevels definitely falls flat.

People will still repeat those story driven adventures to help friends or other players but it would be by choice because they enjoyed them...not because they have to or they're just trying to quickly farm shinies. Especially if there's a decent gil reward for doing so.

Personally if XIV ever wants to be anything more than the fluff Care Bear world it is, it has to get rid of cross-server Duty Finder. Perhaps if a community actually needed people to step up and help each other there would be more of a sense of community and the majority of End Gamers wouldn't just log on, do their dailies, and log out. Perhaps they would be more excited to assist FC/LS mates in their needs since it would take more effort than just having duty finder pick random people from any world and thrust them together where they can all act like brats without any form of consequence. If you were stuck relying on people in your own world, and reputations could actually develop...it would add yet another dynamic that a MMO should have and that XIV sorely lacks. An actual server-wide community with actual consequences for your actions.

You made some good points. Not all I agree with, but they are no less good points.

Anyways, my answer is a lore-based one. If you don't care about the lore, then really what I'm going to say is a moot point, and this would be the time to stop reading here.

Now then, you're primarily an Adventurer, right? I mean, sure, you're a now-famous, primal-killing, case-solving, craft-making, high-ranking Grand Company Officer/Scion/diplomat/Warrior of Light, but still essentially an Adventurer at the core, right?

Dungeons are adventures. They're the stories you tell/are told in. The stuff of legends. Rumors on the streets of Ul'dah and drunken tavern tales in Limsa Lominsa. They are one of the reasons your character is so famous and prestigious in Eorzea. They are what made you. Dungeons are the road you traveled to greatness.

If the experience of the game overall is the forest, dungeons are some of the trees. Don't miss the trees for the forest.

Dungeons, in basically every MMO I've ever seen, are a prequel to raids. They're easier, they're smaller, and they give weaker gear. This is what they do, they help new 50's gear up to actually attempt higher stuff, they help players gear their alts, and they help bridge the gear gap at each new large update.

The problem isn't that dungeons are pointless, the problem is that Hunts seem to outweigh everything else on the reward scale. This wasn't an issue until Hunts appeared, as you couldn't get myth or gear through any other means. Dungeons dropped gear and tomes, which you used to buy better gear before moving into raiding. FATE's sure as heck aren't useful toward that end, neither is crafting, nor treasure hunts... etc.

Dungeons are still right where they belong, once SE fixes the progression ladder.

Dungeons are where crafters get their mats. Duh.