PLD - Skills in numbers - Does anyone have any clue?

Hello,

I'm a beginner PLD player (but not a newbie to MMO whatsoever) and I would be grateful if any of you fellow PLDs would give me a hint of how much enmity is generated by each attack. Is there any database (spreadsheet) that provides the raw data that is needed to be a good tank? And I mean everything. Like not only Savage Blade, Fast Blade and Rage of Halone numbers when separated and when in combo but also the increase of enmity when using CDs like Fight or Flight, Bloodbath or skills like Stoneskin. What is the difference of enmity generated by Shield Oath compared to Sword Oath (is the Sword Oath atk potency added to Flash potency? Is it multiplied by the "additional enmity" skills?).

Or at least is there any kind of formula for enmity generating through damage of the skill (like raw potency of the skill multiplied by stats / passives / actives and additional enmity)?

Thank you in advance.

I am not sure as to how current this is as I believe there have been some adjustments made in recent patches, but this is a good source for what you are looking for. >> CLICKY <<

Syn

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Originally Posted by Synestr

I am not sure as to how current this is as I believe there have been some adjustments made in recent patches, but this is a good source for what you are looking for. >> CLICKY <<

Syn

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Much appreciated.

Can't talk about Paladin, but at least the Warrior data on this page is old (pre 2.1).

You don't need numbers in the slightest to master enmity in this game, as a tank. Have shield path on, use rage of halone combo a few times (spam flash + CoS for Aoe) and you're good. I know you asked for numbers, but tank threat is so OP you only have to worry about it if you're severely under geared compared to the other party members or you done fucked up!

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Originally Posted by Valar-Shadowmourne

You don't need numbers in the slightest to master enmity in this game, as a tank. Have shield path on, use rage of halone combo a few times (spam flash + CoS for Aoe) and you're good. I know you asked for numbers, but tank threat is so OP you only have to worry about it if you're severely under geared compared to the other party members or you done fucked up!

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I'm quite sure that is what I'm doing in any dungeon. But I would like to know the numbers and estimate how to min/max my rotation. Only because I can generate enough hate by spamming Flash and Circle does not mean I have to do it and "overaggro". Instead of wasting 2-3 GCD on flash that would not give me anything in terms of holding the mobs around I would like to use my Stun, Shield Swipe, Fracture, Spirit Within to maintain higher DPS and max the speed of clearing or maintain the max CC possible and max the survivability.

If I open the fight with Bloodbath Circle I may generate enough threat not to flash once or twice extra times but instead CC or Fracture all around.

Also, I want to know when can I swap my Shield Oath to Sword Oath to do even more damage.

you see, in a very far perspective the Min/Max is what I'm looking for.

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Originally Posted by silvach

Snip

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Fast Blade has no multiplier, it's 150 damage which is 150 enmity.
Savage Blade and Shield Toss have 3x enmity multipliers, as do their WAR equivilants
Rage of Halone has a 5x enmity multiplier.
Flash is the enmity of a 500 potency attack.
All buffs including stoneskin and galvanize generate roughly 70 enmity. Not 70 enmity potency, just 70 points of enmity. They're basically negligible.
Any healing has a 0.5x enmity multiplier.
Shield Oath doubles all your enmity and stacks with the above, but you take a 20% damage penalty, so effectively it's 1.6x enmity.
Sword Oath gives you an additional 50 potency attack every time you use an autoattack.

In the event that this conflicts with the link above, I am right, and they are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Immut

Stuff.

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So with 100str, 100det, 100crt and 30 weapon damage I should do raw:

39,80375412 Fast
55,72525577 Savage
68,99317381 RoH
132,6791804 Flash

Enmity. If it is multiplied by the enmity changers it gives:

119,4112624 Fast
167,1757673 Savage
344,9658691 RoH
132,6791804 Flash

And with Shield Oath:

238,8225247 Fast
334,3515346 Savage
689,9317381 RoH
265,3583608 Flash

So, in 7,5 seconds with shield oath I can do 1263,10 Enmity with full combo or 796 with 3 times Flash (which is 63% of the enmity I can generate with combo). That's cool, lets see how much my DPS will do in the same time (with slightly better weapon (35) and better STR 200). I take the most basic combo of DRG:

60,83551785 True Thrust
81,1140238 Vorpal Thrust
133,8381393 Full Thrust

That is 275 enmity. In theory I should be able to cover his 7,5s combo with 2 flashes and not have to spam another one. So having a rotation of Flash / Flash / Fast blade in first 7,5 seconds should do 769,53 enmity on 1 target and 530 on all targets. Then I can savage on next and RoH on last and RoH on 1st again to cover the enmity for another 7,5seconds. That gives me some ideas... And it also means that using Provoke into Shield toss is inferior to Provoke into flash / RoH (as RoH does the same amount of enmity as flash when out of combo).

And one more: how much does the Bloodbath add to enmity counter when used (i know it gives some at the moment when you active it but how much it adds each hit?)

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Originally Posted by silvach

And it also means that using Provoke into Shield toss is inferior to Provoke into flash / RoH (as RoH does the same amount of enmity as flash when out of combo).

And one more: how much does the Bloodbath add to enmity counter when used (i know it gives some at the moment when you active it but how much it adds each hit?)

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No, just no man... Opening with voke is useless... You open with lob then flash. bloodbath doesnt add enmity per attack.

Bloodbath heals you for 25% of the damage you deal. Healing has a 0.5x enmity multiplier according to Immut. So, 12.5% of your damage is converted into enmity. With Shield Oath up, that's 20% (using the 1.6x figure). This does not affect Flash.

Also, looking at it, your Fast numbers are totally off. It gets NO enmity multiplier. Also, your Shield Oath numbers don't take the -20% damage penalty into account. So, using your example, the numbers should be:

So with 100str, 100det, 100crt and 30 weapon damage I should do raw:

39.80375412 Fast
55.72525577 Savage
68.99317381 RoH
132.6791804 Flash

Enmity. If it is multiplied by the enmity changers it gives:

39.80375412 Fast (Bloodbath: +4.975 = 44.779, a 12.5% increase)
167.1757673 Savage (Bloodbath: +6.966 = 174.141, a 4.1% increase)
344.9658691 RoH (Bloodbath: +8.624 = 353.590, a 2.5% increase)
132.6791804 Flash (not affected by Bloodbath)

And with Shield Oath:

63.686006592 Fast (Bloodbath: +7.961 = 71.647, a 12.5% increase)
267.48122768 Savage (Bloodbath: +11.146 = 278.627, a 4.1% increase)
551.94539056 RoH (Bloodbath: +13.798 = 565.743, a 2.5% increase)
265.3583608 Flash (not affected by Bloodbath or shield oath penalty)

EDIT: In conclusion, the effect of Bloodbath is negligible at best. We're talking about an enmity change from 883.113 to 916.018, a 3.7% enmity increase, across each combo performed while under Bloodbath. If you use Flash under Bloodbath, the number is even lower.

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Originally Posted by silvach

And it also means that using Provoke into Shield toss is inferior to Provoke into flash / RoH (as RoH does the same amount of enmity as flash when out of combo).

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Provoke is a terrible opener, though. The only time I ever open with Provoke is when I need to nab something that's a bit out of Shield Lob range; even then, my hold on it is absolutely nil until I actually hit it with something else, so people have to sit on their hands and not breathe on the mob lest I lose aggro. Provoke doesn't generate enmity. It sets your enmity to the top of the mob's list, but you have to follow up with something else or the DPS/heals will just yank it back off you the second they look at it funny.

Generally speaking, Provoke is for quickly taking back a mob that's been yanked off you. Not to open with.

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Originally Posted by Acala

No, just no man... Opening with voke is useless... You open with lob then flash. bloodbath doesnt add enmity per attack.

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Bloodbath heals, so it does add enmity. FoF/Bloodbath macro is killer for securing enmity early on.

I don't recall Bloodbath -ever- adding enmity. Is there data that shows otherwise? Last time I read enmity tests was last fall where it was concluded Bloodbath added no extra enmity outside of buff activation base enmity. Has there been further conclusions from data? Would love to know if so.

Iirc, only healer based HP restoration generate additional enmity based on amount healed, which extends to xclass Cure/Physick. Tank and DPS HP restoration actions generate no additional enmity outside of the initial buff action activation (which is a set value for all buff actions).

Edit; I don't know if this extends to ACN's Sustain ability.

Provoke gives enmity equal to the difference between you and the highest enmity on the monster +1. So for a monster with no enmity towards anyone that number is 1. Circle of scorn gives no added enmity at all, I see people talk about CoS like its a badass version of flash when in reality it's just an aoe dot. That being said the dot does build enmity from dmg but please don't be fooled into thinking CoS is going to turn the tide of a situation like flash or even better halone.

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Originally Posted by Skull_Angel

Edit; I don't know if this extends to ACN's Sustain ability.

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Sustain acts as if the master used Regen on the pet; the amount healed is counted towards master's enmity.

Re: Bloodbath. it does not give extra enmity except for the initial activation, universal to all buffs.

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

Bloodbath heals you for 25% of the damage you deal. Healing has a 0.5x enmity multiplier according to Immut. So, 12.5% of your damage is converted into enmity. With Shield Oath up, that's 20% (using the 1.6x figure). This does not affect Flash.

Also, looking at it, your Fast numbers are totally off. It gets NO enmity multiplier. Also, your Shield Oath numbers don't take the -20% damage penalty into account. So, using your example, the numbers should be:

So with 100str, 100det, 100crt and 30 weapon damage I should do raw:

39.80375412 Fast
55.72525577 Savage
68.99317381 RoH
132.6791804 Flash

Enmity. If it is multiplied by the enmity changers it gives:

39.80375412 Fast (Bloodbath: +4.975 = 44.779, a 12.5% increase)
167.1757673 Savage (Bloodbath: +6.966 = 174.141, a 4.1% increase)
344.9658691 RoH (Bloodbath: +8.624 = 353.590, a 2.5% increase)
132.6791804 Flash (not affected by Bloodbath)

And with Shield Oath:

63.686006592 Fast (Bloodbath: +7.961 = 71.647, a 12.5% increase)
267.48122768 Savage (Bloodbath: +11.146 = 278.627, a 4.1% increase)
551.94539056 RoH (Bloodbath: +13.798 = 565.743, a 2.5% increase)
265.3583608 Flash (not affected by Bloodbath or shield oath penalty)

EDIT: In conclusion, the effect of Bloodbath is negligible at best. We're talking about an enmity change from 883.113 to 916.018, a 3.7% enmity increase, across each combo performed while under Bloodbath. If you use Flash under Bloodbath, the number is even lower.

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Thank you for fixing the numbers, I totally forgot about the 20% damage reduction from Shield Oath. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Acala

No, just no man... Opening with voke is useless... You open with lob then flash. bloodbath doesnt add enmity per attack.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Provoke is a terrible opener, though. The only time I ever open with Provoke is when I need to nab something that's a bit out of Shield Lob range; even then, my hold on it is absolutely nil until I actually hit it with something else, so people have to sit on their hands and not breathe on the mob lest I lose aggro. Provoke doesn't generate enmity. It sets your enmity to the top of the mob's list, but you have to follow up with something else or the DPS/heals will just yank it back off you the second they look at it funny.

Generally speaking, Provoke is for quickly taking back a mob that's been yanked off you. Not to open with.



Bloodbath heals, so it does add enmity. FoF/Bloodbath macro is killer for securing enmity early on.

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I never said that provoke is a good opener, I just said that Provoke / Flash works better than Provoke / Lob. That's all.

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Originally Posted by Ricon

Provoke gives enmity equal to the difference between you and the highest enmity on the monster +1. So for a monster with no enmity towards anyone that number is 1. Circle of scorn gives no added enmity at all, I see people talk about CoS like its a badass version of flash when in reality it's just an aoe dot. That being said the dot does build enmity from dmg but please don't be fooled into thinking CoS is going to turn the tide of a situation like flash or even better halone.

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That is what I think exactly. That's why I posted here Paladin Rework an idea to make Overpower cross-class ability. That would make Paladin a lot better when tanking AoE content. I'm utterly disappointed that Warrior is able to hold single target and multi-target AoE without any troubles when we have to struggle with some AoE pulls. I thought at the very beginning of my FFXIV adventure that WAR is just better at AoE but he is inferior to PLD when it comes to holding one target. Nope, I was wrong. In long fights Warrior comes on top of the PLD enmity. That is just not fair.

I know we are more durable in terms of damage reduction, but this is weight by the big HP pool and extra healing received. Damn, they even got some skills to reduce the damage taken as if they had the shield oath up. In the same time there is nothing to weight the superior Warriors ability of establishing aoe hate.

In terms of tanking - in my opinion, PLD is not as good and does not fit as well to every content of the game as Warrior. And on top of that, he is not as fun to play as Warrior.

Then why do you level a Paladin if you like the Warrior more?

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Originally Posted by Alphras

Then why do you level a Paladin if you like the Warrior more?

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It's not about who I like less and who I like more. I like Paladin - because of the concept of the class, his story and how does he look. I like to level him up it's just not as "fast' and 'fun' while in dungeons. I should edit my post because I saw the "don't play it then" posts incoming, but this is not the way to deal with the problem (if there is one, maybe I'm just inexperienced and need guiding of how this class is dungeon-wise better when at lvl 50).

Your answer didn't put anything new to the topic and didn't even (in slightest manner) refer to my post - it was just cheap and bad mannered answer. It's not like I should love everything about the class when I chose to play one. Seeing PLD flaws is important as well.

1. Your whole rant about WAR is off topic.
2. It wasn't "a don't play it then" post, it was a genuine question. No need to be so agressive.
3. You should really play the job that you think is more fun ... it is a game after all.

Ok, let me say that in other words. Lets compare the numbers. As said before, Shield Oathed, 100str, 100det, 100crit, 30weapon damage PLD does:

63.686006592 Fast
267.48122768 Savage
551.94539056 RoH
265.3583608 Flash

enmity.

For Defiance MRD:

59,70563118 Heavy Swing
238,8225247 Skull sunder
557,2525577 Butcher's Block

MRD will do 855,78 enmity in 7,5 second rotation and PLD will do 883,1126248. Add the Maim which can be maintained 100% of the fight (that's why we can count it in (unlike FoF)) MRD will do: 1026,93 enmity.

1T MRD is doing roughly 15% more enmity.
AoE wise there is nothing to compere as MRD just destroys PLD in this matter.

My question is - ain't this seems a little odd that MRD is superior to PLD in 1t and AoE situations? And in what situation PLD fits better than MRD?

It's not as easy as that. Single target the PLD only uses one Combo, which has a high enmity modifier. The WAR (not Marauder) needs to throw in Combos without an enmity modifier at all (either every second or every third combo). If you begin throwing Fight or Flight, Berserk and Unchained into the equation it will become really complex.

On multiple targets the WAR wins in terms of enmity, but spamming overpowers is very inefficient and he will lose the mitigation from inner beast.

On the other hand comparing enmity generation is pointless, because enmity generation of tanks in this game is ridiculously high.

Edit:
As for your question. There is not really a situation where one or the other would fit better. They can both perform any MT or OT role in the endgame content. Square did a really good job at balancing boths jobs in terms of effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

Edit:
As for your question. There is not really a situation where one or the other would fit better. They can both perform any MT or OT role in the endgame content. Square did a really good job at balancing boths jobs in terms of effectiveness.

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So, PLD and MRD perform similar and fit both for OT and MT. Even when there is more AoE content than single target, PLD is doing similar to MRD? The problem is, that MRD does better in AoE and same when facing 1T. That makes one of them inferior. Ain't it? MLD fits for AoE and 1T MT, PLD fits in 1T MT but his usefulness goes down whenever there is any AoE content.

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Originally Posted by silvach

So, PLD and MRD perform similar and fit both for OT and MT. Even when there is more AoE content than single target, PLD is doing similar to MRD? The problem is, that MRD does better in AoE and same when facing 1T. That makes one of them inferior. Ain't it? MLD fits for AoE and 1T MT, PLD fits in 1T MT but his usefulness goes down whenever there is any AoE content.

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The point is that PLDs, even if they generate less enmity than a WAR in an AoE situation, still generate enough to keep aggro on all targets. Tanking is most important on bosses, who are often single targets, or small groups. PLD is great on small groups because you can combo one, combo the other, and so on, and you'll have PLENTY of enmity.

All that said, in ST, I find as a PLD, I often lose aggro to similarly geared WARs on single targets (and AoE targets). But, I still generate plenty to MT if no one is fighting with me over it. However, WARs tend to die faster is the healers are busy since they have fewer good CDs than PLD. So, it's all rather balanced, if you take in the whole picture.

In summary, the only real difference that matters between WAR and PLD:
- WAR does more damage (but still nowhere near what a DPS does) and generates a bit more enmity.
- PLD has better mitigation cooldowns (but WAR can tank just fine - Defiance and Shield Oath do the same thing, except PLDs have a ~4% bigger boost to healing) and some interesting (though rarely, if ever, game changing) utility skills (Stone Skin, Tempered Will, Cover).

The only thing I would change about PLD vs WAR is to give PLDs either Esuna as a cross-class skill, or allow PLD's Raise to be used in combat. Too many of the PLD cross class skills are just terrible.

/PLDvsWARdebate

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

- PLD has better mitigation cooldowns (but WAR can tank just fine - Defiance and Shield Oath do the same thing, except PLDs have a ~4% bigger boost to healing) and some interesting (though rarely, if ever, game changing) utility skills (Stone Skin, Tempered Will, Cover).

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The cooldowns are the same in the end. PLD has stronger ones, but the CDs are way longer. Again the work of good balancing. I think a rework for all the cross skills would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

The cooldowns are the same in the end. PLD has stronger ones, but the CDs are way longer. Again the work of good balancing. I think a rework for all the cross skills would be nice.

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Huh, I never really looked closely at the WAR mitigation CDs before, I just always thought PLD's were slightly better and WARs had better damage.

Blue = exactly equal, Red = worse than it's "counterpart," Green = better than it's "counterpart."

PLD
1. Rampart: -20% damage taken for 20s, 90s CD
2. Foresight: +20% defence for 20s, 120s CD
3. Sentinel: -40% damage taken for 10s, 180s CD
4. Bulwark: +60% block rate for 15s, 180s CD
5. Awareness: Immune to crits for 25s, 180s CD
6. Convalescence: +30% healing received for 20s, 120s CD
7. Hallowed Ground: Invincible (mostly, a few attacks ignore it) for 10s, 420s CD
8. Ring of Halone: Reduce target strength by 10% forever, no CD

WAR
1. Inner Beast: -20% damage taken for 6s, ~25s/60s dual CD sorta (it's complicated)
2. Foresight: +20% defense for 20s, 90s CD
3. Vengeance: -30% damage taken for 15s, 120s CD
4. Featherfoot: +15% evasion for 15s, 90s CD
5. Awareness: Immune to crits for 20s, 180s CD
6. Convalescence: +20% healing received for 20s, 120s CD
7. Holmgang: Cannot go below 1 hp, 6s duration, 180s CD
8. Storm's Path: Reduce target's damage dealt by 10% forever, no CD
9. Thrill of Battle: 20% heal (defiance bonus hard to calculate for many reasons), 120s CD
10. Second Wind: ? heal, 120s CD

(Note: One of the four cross-class skills for WAR will likely not be taken at all (Awareness?) so Flash and Provoke can both be taken)

Wow, I never realized that Vengeance is 60% better than Sentinel in a long fight with constant damage. Vengeance is an overall 3.75% damage reduction, where Sentinel is an overall 2.22% damage reduction. Sentinel is better though in fights where there are short periods of high damage followed by long periods of low damage, or when your healers are really pressed.

In addition, if my math is right (which it probably isn't), Inner Beast results in a ~5% overall damage reduction (assuming it is used once every 25s and whenever Infuriate is available). Rampart has a 3.33% overall damage reduction.

Also, I'm not sure how damage reduction abilities stack with Shield Oath, so all of my numbers could be total BS if it isn't multiplicative stacking.

I have no idea how to compare Featherfoot to Bulwark, or how to compare Holmgang to Hallowed Ground. My gut tells me that Hallowed Ground and Featherfoot are the better of the pairs.

So, in conclusion, they're pretty equal on CDs after all, though if you factor in WAR's healing... WAR may be better with damage mitigation? That really surprises me.

I don't follow this at all, I don't lose hate on single targets ever as a pld and I don't lose hate on pulls involving whole whole areas of dungeons like brayflox and so on. The only way to lose hate is to tank poorly, spam out your mp then pull another group or position poorly and miss targets with flash.

On the topic of how much better war is than pld, hallowed ground vs holmgang, bulwark, and self cast stoneskin.

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

1. Foresight: -20% damage taken for 20s, 90s CD

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Unless defense has gotten crazy high without me noticing Foresight is only about a 5% dmg reduction because it raises defense like feather foot does for evasion. It's really a trash skill if you compare it to the glorious gifts pld gives war. But in the debate of feather foot vs bulwark I have always talked with my FC wars and bulwark is a more or less 27% dmg reduction because I can't of a time I used it and saw an attack not get blocked (magic being the exception of course). My wars and I tend to disagree about feather foot because I see how much I dodge and feel that +15% of dirt is still dirt. I don't know, this is all pointless because pld was so much better than war that SE had to give war pretty much all the things that made pld a pld. Now both tanks are equal and fine.

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Originally Posted by silvach

snip?

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Realistically, PLD should come in slightly ahead or break even with WAR if on equal grounds (no Storm's Eye, or both Storm's Eye/similar gear) because WAR has to rotate in a Storm's combo at least once in every 3 combos to keep Maim maintained for Butcher's Block; they are very close in single target enmity generation unless the WAR uses Unchained/Steel Cyclone instead of Inner Beast.

edit; it seems like I missed a full page, haha. feel free to disregard.

Oh, I never noticed that! I always thought Foresight was the same as Rampart/Sentinel. I should read things more closely. Also, Bulwark can't be a 27% damage reduction because you have to factor in the block rate before bulwark. Even if it makes all hits into blocks, a number of those would have been blocks anyway. And then you get into the damage reduction PLDs have from using shields...

But yeah, just because the tanks are equal doesn't mean it isn't fun to see the math anyway! And WARs do soo much more damage than me (as a PLD), but I think it's so much less than a DPS that it doesn't really factor in anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ricon

Unless defense has gotten crazy high without me noticing Foresight is only about a 5% dmg reduction because it raises defense like feather foot does for evasion. It's really a trash skill if you compare it to the glorious gifts pld gives war.

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Apparently it has. Here have this spreadsheet I put together a while back. From what I understand, each point of defense is .004455% damage reduction, so that's what it's based on.

http://i.imgur.com/2TyGxfd.png

That's still only 10% and I reported it as 20% :P Good to know though that Foresight is half as good while it's up as Rampart, which is in turn half as good as Sentinel.

I'm glad to see foresight being better as well, it has potential in the future to be a great buff since it scales with gear.

Bulwark I know isn't a 27% reduction but just from my experience with it I would never leave home without it. Holy shield animus blocks 27% damage at 60% more rate. Only point to the pointless is it's an unmatched buff in my opinion unlike say tempered will and cover which are just utility.

I see wars get spiked a lot higher than I do which makes for more uncomfortable situations. The 11k hp pools are nice and their 50% is of course more hp than my 50% but I feel like I see wars at 50% more often.

Just remember that, despite HP differences, WAR and PLD have the same EHP. A PLD with 8,000 hp and a WAR with 10,000 hp have the same EHP. Healing is only ~4% more effective on PLDs, since the WAR HP buff is 25% but their healing increase is 20%. So, a hit for 9,999 comes in, PLD is left with 1 HP and WAR is left with 1 HP. To heal the PLD up to full, 7,999 points of healing are needed. To heal the WAR up to full, 8,333 points are needed, a 4% difference. That makes a WAR's 50% either equal to your 50% (EHP-wise), or slightly *lower* since 4% more healing is required to get theirs back up.

Of course, this is all ignoring the cooldowns and PLD shield, which for WAR include more heals and for PLD involve more total mitigation.