[Balance change] Change Divine Seal from +30% healing potency to +30% mind stat

With all i100+ healer gear giving accuracy, it's clear that the developers want to give healers the option to dps if they so choose. However, WHM lack offensive cooldowns for burst phases. Even SCH can use aetherflow charges on Energy Drain for extra burst if necessary, but WHM has nothing in its repertoire that fills this function.

A very easy fix would be to change the effect of Divine Seal from +30% healing potency to +30% mind stat (or whatever would cause the equivalent effect), giving it the dual function of healing improvement AND damage improvement for short burn/burst phases. Give us the option, based Yoshi-P!

EDIT: I am talking specifically about raid content and not "grind" content like Brayflox speedruns. Yes, WHM holy spam is higher dps against 20 mobs. No, you're never going to see 20 mobs at once in a raid.

You said balance change, then laid out something that would remove the balance there is... what.

That would make it less potent for healing, as your MND is only 1 of 3 factors involved, so people wanting to use it for healing would be worse off. And I don't think they could make it a set # that'd equal out to 30% potency for all combinations of weapon damage+mnd+det.

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Originally Posted by ForteXX

You said balance change, then laid out something that would remove the balance there is... what.

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What's the problem? SCH currently out-dpses WHM by a good margin AND won't go out of mana while doing so AND doesn't need as much accuracy. This evens the playing field a small bit.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

That would make it less potent for healing, as your MND is only 1 of 3 factors involved, so people wanting to use it for healing would be worse off. And I don't think they could make it a set # that'd equal out to 30% potency for all combinations of weapon damage+mnd+det.

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As I said, set the +X% mind stat to whatever would be equivalent to +30% healing potency; I don't actually care what the specific percent that would be. They know the damage formulas, so they'd know what to set it as. Or alternatively, just say "magic potency" +30% and achieve the same effect.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

What's the problem? SCH currently out-dpses WHM by a good margin AND won't go out of mana while doing so AND doesn't need as much accuracy. This evens the playing field a small bit.

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depends on the content really, in brayflox a holy spamming whm can out-dps even a blm. In turn 4 before echo buff was a thing, whms were holying the spider mobs for added DPS, SCH could never do that.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

However, WHM lack offensive cooldowns for burst phases. Even SCH can use aetherflow charges on Energy Drain for extra burst if necessary, but WHM has nothing in its repertoire that fills this function.

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Energy Drain---150 Potency (Recast of 3.00 seconds)
Stone II--------170 Potency (Cast time of 2.42 seconds)
Holy------------200 Potency (Cast time of 2.91 seconds)


What?

I'm talking specifically about raid content where there's usually just one boss and a few adds now and then, in which context SCH destroys WHM and can keep healing in Cleric Stance to boot. Against a single target, Holy isn't even the highest dps spell; Stone II has a higher potency per second. WHM Holy spam is nice in Brayflox HM but that has never been a meaningful part of endgame, just a fast myth delivery service, and I don't think "Job Balance" with a big B applies there.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

Energy Drain---150 Potency (Recast of 3.00 seconds)
Stone II--------170 Potency (Cast time of 2.42 seconds)
Holy------------200 Potency (Cast time of 2.91 seconds)


What?

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Clearly you've never played scholar OR white mage.

Bio - 40 pot/tick
Miasma - 35 pot/tick
Bio II - 35 pot/tick
Shadow Flare 25 pot/tick
Ruin - 80 potency
Energy Drain - 150 potency

Scholars max out at 215 potency per GCD with perfect dot application, plus they get up to 3 energy drains per minute, which makes Aetherflow effectively a hybrid dps cooldown with a 60 second recast. If you knew elementary school math, you'd see that Holy is LOWER potency per second than Stone II against a single target and is completely useless in Coil 2. With perfect dot application, white mages top out at 181 potency per GCD, with Fluid Aura giving an extra 150 potency every 30 seconds (which is 33% weaker than 3 energy drains per minute).

But you stated you wanted the change because WHM needs more burst damage, when WHM already blows SCH out of the water for burst damage, on single target and AoE.

Can SCH consistently do more DPS on longer fights? Yes
Can WHM add more burst DPS when something needs to die fast? Yes

This is the trade-off, and why no balance change is needed.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Clearly you've never played scholar OR white mage.

Bio - 40 pot/tick
Miasma - 35 pot/tick
Bio II - 35 pot/tick
Shadow Flare 25 pot/tick
Ruin - 80 potency
Energy Drain - 150 potency

Scholars max out at 215 potency per GCD with perfect dot application, plus they get up to 3 energy drains per minute, which makes Aetherflow effectively a hybrid dps cooldown with a 60 second recast. If you knew elementary school math, you'd see that Holy is LOWER potency per second than Stone II against a single target and is completely useless in Coil 2. With perfect dot application, white mages top out at 181 potency per GCD, with Fluid Aura giving an extra 150 potency every 30 seconds (which is 33% weaker than 3 energy drains per minute).

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Funny, because I main BOTH WHM and SCH, which you would see if you even bothered to look at my main class that is directly under my name.

Also it's a good thing those DoTs always get used to full potential. It's not like when burst damage is actually needed, the target is usually dead before you even finish your DoT rotation. So go ahead and try to outburst a WHM and let me know how that goes.

1) AoE burst is only better when there are >4 targets, which is never, since Bane is still stronger than Holy and there are never going to be more than 4 mobs clumped up like that in Coil. The bugs in T4 have never been a dps check and so don't count. Bonus points, Bane can't miss so you'll never whiff it like you can with Holy.

2) In 3 GCDs, SCH can do Bio, Energy Drain, Ruin, Energy Drain, Ruin, Energy Drain for a total of 730 potency. In 3 GCDs, WHM can do Stone II, Fluid Aura, Stone II, Stone II for a total of 660 potency. There are no burst phases in Coil 1 or 2 that are only 3 GCDs long. Most are 6 GCDs or more, and the difference in potency per GCD only widens.

Scholar is mathematically more dps than white mage so there's no use arguing about it. Why are you so against a buff for a job that you play often enough that you list it on your forum profile?

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

What's the problem? SCH currently out-dpses WHM by a good margin AND won't go out of mana while doing so AND doesn't need as much accuracy. This evens the playing field a small bit.

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Wait what?

Certain Scholars could out dps WHM... But they also can't use Holy which is one of the best aoe attacks in the game plus it can stun.

Stone II is also great and can be spammed pretty quickly on single targets.

Combine Presence of Mind+Holy/StoneII and you can deal a lot of damage very quickly.

Scholar's have to use THREE dot spells first THEN Bane and even then it'll only spread up to 3 other targets then Shadow Flare.

A good whm shouldn't be having mp problems with Shroud of Saints and if they don't get too overzealous.

I'd take a whm over sch any day for speed run. Holy is simply amazing and I'd rather have a powerful aoe+stun over dots any day.

IMO:
Holy (3 secs *less with Presence of Mind active*) aoe on ALL targets + Stun
>
Bio 2(2.5 secs) + Miasma (2.5 secs) + Bio (Instant) + Bane (spreads 3 previous dots on up to 3 other targets) + Shadow Flare (2.5 secs)

Sadly, the stun from Holy is rarely if ever used for the stun. And its a healing class/job, it doesn't need to be 'balanced' to do more damage.

Now I'm not talking down on Scholars because they're awesome but White Mages are in no way underpowered.

I made an edit to the OP to clarify that I'm speaking only about raids where dps checks need to be met. I'm certainly not arguing against the fact that WHM is superior in Brayflox speedruns and would never queue into there as SCH because I'd feel bad for not helping as much.

As for Holy, every single boss and add in SCOB is resistant to stun so it's a non-benefit. Putting up dots and spamming Stone II is WHM's highest potency per second. However, it is my opinion that good healers heal, great healers dps (on top of healing). I am merely arguing for a small change to the effect of one skill to make the two healing classes more balanced in their dps.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

If you knew elementary school math,

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Have fun with the incoming flame.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

What's the problem? SCH currently out-dpses WHM by a good margin AND won't go out of mana while doing so AND doesn't need as much accuracy. This evens the playing field a small bit.



As I said, set the +X% mind stat to whatever would be equivalent to +30% healing potency; I don't actually care what the specific percent that would be. They know the damage formulas, so they'd know what to set it as. Or alternatively, just say "magic potency" +30% and achieve the same effect.

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The point is there's no set # that'd work for everyone, due to the varying amounts of DMG/MND/DET involved.

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Originally Posted by Roll

Have fun with the incoming flame.

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For what? Being correct?

170 pot / 2.5 s = 68 pot/s
200 pot / 3 s = 66.6 pot/s

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

The point is there's no set # that'd work for everyone, due to the varying amounts of DMG/MND/DET involved.

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Then just do option 2 and say "all magic potency +30%". Problem solved.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/e327b9876...8fodo1_250.gif

correct me if im wrong, but doesnt mind affect healing, and not much else? piety is mp, int is dmg. so you want divine seal to change from a healing boost to a healing boost? also, people are forgetting aero II and aero.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

correct me if im wrong, but doesnt mind affect healing, and not much else? piety is mp, int is dmg. so you want divine seal to change from a healing boost to a healing boost? also, people are forgetting aero II and aero.

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Cleric Stance

Anyway, I don't support this. I don't see why WHM needs more damage, when the only time we damage is on lower tier dungeons. That will just make our healing weaker where it is needed, in the top-tier content.

@Kaze3434

WHM and SCH has a toggle skill named Cleric Stance, what this does is it will swap our INT and Mind values, making healers' damage to be respectable.

So if Divine Seal buff our Mind Stat instead of overall healing potency as suggested by axemtitanium‎, when used in conjunction with Cleric Stance, we will have boosted INT, increasing our damage.

@axemtitanium

WHM do have a buff for burst damage, it's called Presence of Mind :P‎

Presence of Mind 5 minute cooldown uguuuuuuuu ;w;

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

1) AoE burst is only better when there are >4 targets, which is never, since Bane is still stronger than Holy and there are never going to be more than 4 mobs clumped up like that in Coil. The bugs in T4 have never been a dps check and so don't count. Bonus points, Bane can't miss so you'll never whiff it like you can with Holy.

2) In 3 GCDs, SCH can do Bio, Energy Drain, Ruin, Energy Drain, Ruin, Energy Drain for a total of 730 potency. In 3 GCDs, WHM can do Stone II, Fluid Aura, Stone II, Stone II for a total of 660 potency. There are no burst phases in Coil 1 or 2 that are only 3 GCDs long. Most are 6 GCDs or more, and the difference in potency per GCD only widens.

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So you've now blown an entire Aetherflow cooldown for the sake of doing 70 more potency on something WHM can do effortlessly.

Good thing you never need Lustrate or Sacred Soil in end-game content.

Also by the 4th GCD, the WHM has already caught up to your DPS, and passed you by the 5th GCD. And now that you've wasted time bursting your Energy Drains and Ruin, none of your DoTs have been applied, and all you've done is hurt your overall DPS.

Also to say Bane is stronger than Holy is laughable.

Since you like numbers so much, let's show some.

In 3 GCD, casting Bio, Miasma, Bio II, and Bane, you have done ~245 potency to the first monster, and 0 potency to the other monsters.

In 3 GCD, casting Holy, Holy, Holy has done 600 potency to every monster.

In 5 GCD, adding Shadow Flare, Energy Drain, Ruin, Energy Drain, you have done 895 potency to the first monster, and 220 potency the the other monsters.

In 5 GCD adding, Holy, Holy, has now done 1000 potency to every monster.

Looks like Holy Wins. Have I destroyed my MP doing this? Sure, but it's no different than you wasting 2-3 Aetherflows on Energy Drain.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

@Kaze3434

WHM and SCH has a toggle skill named Cleric Stance, what this does is it will swap our INT and Mind values, making healers' damage to be respectable.

So if Divine Seal buff our Mind Stat instead of overall healing potency as suggested by axemtitanium‎, when used in conjunction with Cleric Stance, we will have boosted INT, increasing our damage.

@axemtitanium

WHM do have a buff for burst damage, it's called Presence of Mind :P‎

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i know, i play both of them. and got it after thinking about it for a bit.

"We destroy SCH damage wise in every single scenario but single target, please make it so we can destroy them there too, ignore the fact that by doing this you will also boost even more our AoE damage."

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

For what? Being correct?

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No. For being insulting and rude. You could have omitted the "If you knew elementary school math," and still have proven your point.
But then again, I shouldn't expect much from the community on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

Since you like numbers so much, let's show some.

In 3 GCD, casting Bio, Miasma, Bio II, and Bane, you have done ~245 potency to the first monster, and 0 potency to the other monsters.

In 3 GCD, casting Holy, Holy, Holy has done 600 potency to every monster.

In 5 GCD, adding Shadow Flare, Energy Drain, Ruin, Energy Drain, you have done 895 potency to the first monster, and 220 potency the the other monsters.

In 5 GCD adding, Holy, Holy, has now done 1000 potency to every monster.

.

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Holy cast time is longer than the gcd. Just to let you know that a more accurate calculation would use time in seconds not gcd. Not that I agree WHM needs more damage though.

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Originally Posted by Pantz

Holy cast time is longer than the gcd. Just to let you know that a more accurate calculation would use time in seconds not gcd. Not that I agree WHM needs more damage though.

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True, but you also have to factor in the time it takes for the server to register the last DoT hitting before you can safely spread them with Bane. You could potentially lose almost a second on that alone. Also Shadow Flare's casting time is the same as Holy. So it almost evens out by the end. Even adding a time discrepancy in Bane's favor, it still doesn't come close to Holy's DPS.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

"We destroy SCH damage wise in every single scenario but single target, please make it so we can destroy them there too, ignore the fact that by doing this you will also boost even more our AoE damage."

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This guy summed up the entire thread, and this is probably the bottom line that SE will look at. From a balance PoV, buffing Divine Seal (which is what changing it from +heals to +Mind would be) would need to be offset in some other way, likely increasing the cooldown. I'd rather see a smaller more reasonable change, like adding 5 more seconds to PoM and dropping a minute off the cooldown.

@HaelseMikiro,Alukah

Correct me if I'm wrong, but damage wise...... aren't there just two scenarios? AoE/Single Target.
The way Alukah phrase it is like there's more than two scenarios, and WHM dominates in all of them, leaving "only" single target for SCH o.o.

Your suggestion would break WHM for burst AOE DPS so much that it would never be considered.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

@HaelseMikiro,Alukah

Correct me if I'm wrong, but damage wise...... aren't there just two scenarios? AoE/Single Target.
The way Alukah phrase it is like there's more than two scenarios, and WHM dominates in all of them, leaving "only" single target for SCH o.o.

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There's three scenarios: single target, AoE (4 mobs or less), and AoE (more than 4 mobs). WHM is better than SCH in the 3rd scenario (which doesn't exist in coil 2), but worse in the first one and equal at best in the scenario, but worse overall IMO because of the MP drain. Speaking of which, Shroud of Saints gives a flat amount of MP every 120 seconds, regardless of gear, whereas Aetherflow scales based on piety/MP pool (i.e. recovers more MP if you have more MP, making it more powerful since spell MP cost does not scale based on gear). What gives?

If your group requires a WHM DPSing to get past burst phases, there's a problem here that changing one of WHM's biggest healing buffs isn't going to solve.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

The shortest burn phases in SCOB are all at least 6 GCDs and many are much longer.

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Ok, so let's go with a hypothetical 15 second burst using the skills on both My i92 WHM, and i93 SCH.

WHM:
Aero----------175 potency---Recast=2.42 seconds(If cast first, it loses a single 25-potency tick)
Stone II x5--850 potency------Cast=12.1 total seconds
Fluid Aura---150 potency------Cast= Buried in Cooldown of Aero

Total Potency=1175
Total Cast=14.52 seconds

SCH
Bio----------------200 Potency----Recast=2.47 seconds (If cast first, will loses a single 40-potency tick)
Miasma---------125-160 Potency------Cast=2.47 seconds (Should tick 3-4 times in the 10 seconds it has remaining after the cast has completed)
Bio II-----------70-105 Potency-------Cast=2.47 seconds (Should tick 2-3 times in the 7.5 seconds it has remaining after the cast has completed)
Shadow Flare-----25-50 Potency---------Cast=2.96 seconds (Should tick 1-2 times in the 4.5 seconds it has remaining after the cast has completed)
Ruin x2----------160 Potency-------------Cast=4.94 seconds total

Total Potency=580-675 (Depending on ticks.)
Total Cast=15.31 seconds

So, even if you add 3 Energy Drains, your potency still only reaches 1125, which, if I did my basic math right, is less than a WHM. So tell me again how SCH are better at burst damage.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

Ok, so let's go with a hypothetical 15 second burst using the skills on both My i92 WHM, and i93 SCH.

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If target is only living for 6 GCDs you don't bother with Bio2, and you're forgetting Aero for SCH (which is very front-loaded in regards to potency). You're also assuming you are hardcasting Shadow Flare if it's not already up. Which is, frankly, stupid even in a vacuum.

Even your WHM example is flawed. Where is Aero 2, which will tick for its full 210?

You also wouldn't Shadow Flare as part of the last 7 seconds or so of a single-target burst either.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

If target is only living for 6 GCDs you don't bother with Bio2, and you're forgetting Aero for SCH (which is very front-loaded in regards to potency). You're also assuming you are hardcasting Shadow Flare if it's not already up. Which is, frankly, stupid even in a vacuum.

Even your WHM example is flawed. Where is Aero 2, which will tick for its full 210?

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Remember, these numbers are based off a strict 15-second time window, which is 6 GCD. Using Aero I first will drop Aero II's potency to 170 because Aero II will not hit until 5 seconds have passed, removing a 40 potency tick. Using Aero II first would result in Aero I losing another tick, droping the potency below Stone II. And actually, now that you mentioned it, it's way better to just use Aero II first, followed by 5 Stone IIs. This raises the WHM potency to 1210.

Using Aero on a SCH will change almost nothing. Using Aero after Miasma instead of Bio II, would increase overall potency by 20. And if we're including Swiftcast for Shadow Flare, then we'd have to apply the same rules for WHM. Even if Shadowflare is up the entire 15 seconds, it adds 125 potency, when WHM could just swiftcast Holy for another 200.

Overall, SCH cannot beat WHM in burst damage.

Why on earth would you Swiftcast Holy for single target burst. A whopping 30 more potency for 4 times the MP.

What the hell are you talking about with Aero lowering Aero2's timer? Aero2 > Aero > Fluid Aura > Stone2spam, not Aero1 first. You sure you play these jobs?

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Why on earth would you Swiftcast Holy for single target burst. A whopping 30 more potency for 4 times the MP.

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Why would you swiftcast Shadow Flare for a single target burst?

Because it's an extra DoT that can already be up for the whole duration? The two are not comparable. At all.

Somehow, you've managed to construct absolutely the WORST six-move rotation for a SCH burst. A more intelligent 6 GCD rotation would be:

Miasma 20 initial+175
Aero 50 initial+100
Energy Drain 150
Bio 120
Energy Drain 150
Ruin II 80
Energy Drain 150
Ruin 80
Ruin 80
Energy Drain 150
= 1155 potency + up to 125 potency from Shadow Flare which should be up at all times anyway

As you add more GCDs to the burst phase, the fewer energy drains you need to outpace WHM. If it's an add that needs to be bursted down, you can remove even more startup time since dots can be bane'd onto it.