I see this thrown around a lot and though the general consensus seems to favor PLD MT + WAR OT, I see a lot of comments in the other direction as well. Some of the arguments I generally read are flawed because they'll state things such as "WAR with STR accs beats PLD with tanking accs" and things of that nature.
Fight or Flight and Berserk are available regardless of which job is tanking, but the main differences lie in the following:
WAR MT loses 25% damage due to Defiance, but can use Unchained every 120 seconds to regain it for 20 seconds. WAR MTs also have varying extra critical %.
PLD MT loses 50 potency on auto attacks due to being in Shield Oath over Sword Oath.
I'd like to hear from stat junkies who crunch numbers (if there are any).
WAR MT + PLD OT vs. PLD MT + WAR OT in terms of DPS
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06-23-2014, 11:33 PMFatedWAR MT + PLD OT vs. PLD MT + WAR OT in terms of DPS
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06-23-2014, 11:42 PMNabian
I don't have the numbers...and from a offensive stand point I don't think it matters very much. It's going to be very minimal either way. I think Pld MT + War OT, might be a bit easier to maintain higher DPS as the warrior can focus more on keep up cooldowns and less on threat, but a good warrior/paladin will be able to handle either roll equally well.
As for the argument about a warrior with dps accessories being better than a paladin in tank accessories. I expect that would be true...but can't we say the same if the situation was reversed. Why couldn't a paladin just wear str accessories. I'm seeing more commonly that both jobs are beginning to wear strength accessories due to the quickly escalating level of VIT. There is no need for 10k+ hp for really anything in this game currently. More and more tanks are just setting a HP threshold and anything over that is swapped into str accessories (I think most warriors are using 9k hp as the threshold). -
06-23-2014, 11:49 PMLemon8orPLD also does 20% less damage just being in Shield Oath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fated
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06-23-2014, 11:52 PMstoxastic
I don't have numbers but assuming equal gear I feel there's a bigger drop off in DPS between the the PLD stances. WAR MT can still do good DPS with Unchained and Inner Beast (it ignores Defiance dps debuff). Also, they get a crit bonus in Defiance with stacks of wrath.
PLD Sword Oath is actually good dps (not as good as WAR w/o defiance) but the drop off in Shield Oath is massive.
Although one thing to keep in mind is that depending on the fight, a WAR MT might need to save IB for some mitigation and might not be able to keep up Storm's Eye up at all times. Also, a PLD in Sword Oath dpsing pretty much make their 10 mitigation cooldowns pretty useless. WAR has also has access to internal release.
So yeah, I dunno. I think if the WAR is good enough they can do good DPS while MT. -
06-23-2014, 11:56 PMAlphras
A Paladin loses 50 auto attack potency and 20% dmg on everything when he is the MT. A Warrior loses 25% dmg on everything, but ganis Unchained and Inner Beast (300 potency attack that ignores the dmg penalty).
My guess is that you would get the best dps with WAR MT and PLD OT, but someone would need to parse the actual difference. -
06-24-2014, 12:02 AMwhiskeybravo
War feels stronger from my exp. Both Storm's Eye and Butcher's Block have a bit more potency then Rage of Halone. Never seen 1k+ crits on PLD (of course now that higher item levels are out, its probably possible. I've pretty much stopped gearing my tanks). Also, I found it kinda strange that War has a bit more Str and apparently inherits a bit more HP (I assume from soul stone). I can have same gear on both but War has a bit more HP (the Vit stat is even the same number, but still more HP on War).
If you are really interested in the break down, though, Kitru has done extensive work breaking down the DPS of the tanks. (can't find link atm) -
06-24-2014, 12:06 AMAlphras
The question wasn't which job deals more damage, but what is the better combination for total raid dps.
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06-24-2014, 12:14 AMKletian
If it's an easy threat fight or the warrior is OT then a warrior can use Storms moves instead of Butcher Block. That's going to be an even bigger factor if Ninja do slash damage.
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06-24-2014, 12:50 AMwhiskeybravoDoesn't damage decide the answer to your question? Either OT can wear dps accesories. War has a bit more utility for the OT role. Though, if I remember Kitru's analysis correctly, Sword Oath can eventually catch up to and surpass non-defiance Warrior. There's not a huge difference though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphras
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06-24-2014, 08:34 AMGiantbane
I forget the actual numbers but the general idea was that outside of their respective tanking stances, PLD actually does a little extra damage when you include the WAR's storm's eye debuff. However, when going from their respective DPS stances (either sword oath or just not using defiance), the PLD loses more damage (no sword oath, shield oath penalty, spirit's within not always getting full potency). So maximum DPS would be WAR MT and PLD OT.
However, the problem is that if you have a WAR MT and PLD OT, the WAR will have trouble keeping their debuffs up 100% on the boss as well as holding threat off the PLD. So you're probably going to have to sacrifice some of the up time on storm's eye/storm's path. For absolute max DPS, the WAR can drop storm's path completely and alternate between storm's eye and butcher's block combos for maximum damage. But then you're losing that 10% damage debuff on the boss. Otherwise, if you're using storm's path at all, it will be difficult to keep storm's eye up 100% of the time without losing threat, so that means you're losing on DPS.
Anyhow while the highest potential for DPS is going to be WAR MT and PLD OT, it still may be better to let the PLD MT. Then the WAR can keep up both debuffs 100% of the time by alternating between SE & SP, ignoring the BB combo entirely. Threat is also never an issue in this scenario. While this may have a slightly lower DPS potential, it's a whole lot easier to execute with fewer things to worry about. -
06-24-2014, 11:23 AMDano
People forget that Warriors can sorta negate the damage penalty with maim (+20%) and storms eye (-10% slashing), a good warrior can pretty much keep it up and hold hate at the same time. But i think it's probably more efficient to have warrior as an offtank to do slashing debuff + attack debuff and DPS and leave the main tanking to PLD.
off topic: that said, I play both classes and it's no contest when it comes to damage, a warrior can out damage PLD easily while tanking/off tanking. -
06-24-2014, 12:43 PMOoshimaAnd yes, most end game WARs that I know of are STR re-speced too. And they off defiance while in OT mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano
One of my FC's WAR last parsed 345 on a dummy, quite a few weeks ago. Now he's i110 with High Allagan Axe I think he's doing more now.
I doubt a PLD in Sword Oath can do this much. -
06-24-2014, 07:29 PMklopsNo chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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06-24-2014, 07:49 PMFueIt actually will outdps warrior when hitting same target with slashing debuff. Without it the difference is neglible.Quote:
Originally Posted by klops
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06-24-2014, 10:18 PMAppleh4xHis parser is broke or he only did it for 15 seconds, either way this post has 0 credibility. Paladin sword oath > War no defiance with equal gear and stat allotment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ooshima
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06-24-2014, 10:24 PMNabianAt ilvl99 using the Bravura Animus and str accessories I can easily pull 220-250 on a target dummy sustained dps (keep in mind i'm VIT specced). If I switched to str spec (i'm currently considering but I usually MT most fights (only experienced t6 and t7)), that would give me an additional 30 strength. With food I could probably squeeze out another 10-20 dps. I don't think 345 would be that difficult to obtain at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleh4x
The extra 30 strength would probably give me an extra 40-50 dps. + the 10-20 from the food. That is easily an extra 50-70 dps on top of the 220-250 I already can pull. People in this game don't understand what DPS numbers the SHOULD be pulling. AN i90 dps should be pulling at least 300 dps on most fights. On dragoon (ilvl90) I can pull about 300-320 on a target dummy consistently. Fully geared monks are pulling around 450-500 dps on turn8 currently. Why is 350 such an unreasonable number? -
06-24-2014, 10:51 PMAlphrasLol no. The PLD wins more DPS when switching from Shield to Sword Oath, but the WAR still does more total dps. Keep in mind, that a warrior gets a permanent +20% damage with Maim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleh4x
Edit:
The question is, who loses more dps when tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Can you link this post? I would like to see it. -
06-24-2014, 11:37 PMRbstrRelative or Absolute? In a relative %-damage-lost manner the Paladin can't do nearly the same damage while in tank stance. Wars get more potency on their combos on top of several damage enhancers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphras
In an absolute sense, even though the Paly loses a larger % of DPS, since the paly's DPS is lower to begin with I bet you're better off with a war OT. -
06-24-2014, 11:45 PMAlphras
Absolute matters in this case, because we want to calculate which combination provides more total dps for the raid. And i think you are underestimating the 50 bonus potentcy on Sword Oath and the two jobs are pretty close in terms of dps when not tanking.
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06-25-2014, 12:00 AMwhiskeybravoI thought I replied to this but I guess not..Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphras
I went through 38 pages of posts in the tanking forum and can't find Kitru's post about this. Used to be in their signature but it's not anymore. -
06-25-2014, 05:30 AMGiantbaneMaim and storm's eye is available with or without defiance so neither are making up for the damage penalty. There's the damage a WAR does without defiance while using maim and storm's eye and then they do about 25% less damage with defiance on. The damage penalty is still there in full effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano
War vs. PLD can be deceptive when considering damage in their DPS stance. War's do a lot more big hits, but their only off GCD ability is brutal swing (not always able to be used). PLD makes up that damage with more hits, coming from extra auto-attack damage via sword oath and powerful off GCD abilities like spirits within and circle of scorn. In addition, fight or flight is not quite as powerful as berserk, but it lasts for 50% longer and doesn't cause pacification either (causing you to miss 1-2 full GCD attacks).
You also shouldn't really count the WAR's max dmg combo (SE->BB) unless you're talking about a burn phase where you don't care about damage received. WAR OT should be doing SE->SP most of the time to keep 100% up time on both debuffs.
Kitru did the math, it comes out slightly in the PLDs favor with Sword Oath vs WAR without Defiance when both classes have access to storm's eye, but it's still very close (within a few % of eachother).
As far as who loses out more, it's definitely the PLD when swapping to tank. The PLD loses the extra sword oath damage, then loses another 20% damage via shield oath, and since they're getting hit all the time, spirits within will either not be doing its full damage, or it needs to be delayed a few seconds to use when at near full life. The only thing the PLD gains back is shield swipe after blocking, which is a small DPS buff (but not huge). War on the other hand only loses that 25% from defiance. However, they have a number of abilities to mitigate this. Wrath stacks grant more crit, unchained can mitigate the defiance buff for a set period of time, and inner beast is a very high potency attack not subject to the defiance penalty.
Thus, since WAR has the highest potential damage while tanking (they lose less when going to defiance) and PLD has slightly better damage while not tanking, the combo with the highest DPS potential is WAR MT + PLD OT.
HOWEVER ...
The other problem with WAR MT is that it's very difficult to keep the SE debuff up 100% while tanking with a PLD off tank unless you drop the SP debuff. To keep both and have 100% up time, you need to be able to tank using the low threat SP->SE combo. This only works if the PLD has spent a good portion of the fight off tanking something else, giving the WAR a significant threat lead, allowing him to use the low threat combo. If this is not the case, you'll probably need to work the BB combo in at least 1/3 of the time, which means that the SE debuff will now only be up about 60% of the time. This results in around a 3-4% loss in DPS for BOTH the WAR MT and PLD OT. In this case, the numbers may be more equal, but it would require a more involved analysis that I'm not willing to do. -
06-25-2014, 10:45 AMOoshimaHe could have shown you if he wanted to. We are talking about a WAR from our Server 2nd T9 clear team. Server first team was also from the same FC. I'm talking about players and a FC who certainly knows their trade and doesn't bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Appleh4x
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06-25-2014, 12:14 PMGiantbaneSo 30 extra STR is going to give you 40-50 DPS while the 450 or so STR, and i100 weapon you have is only providing 220-250 DPS? That doesn't seem right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabian
Knowing their trade or not is sort of irrelevant when we're talking about WAR dps. It's not like it's really complicated. We're not talking about a 27 move rotation here. It's 3 combos to pick from with no procs and no positional requirements. If he is getting those numbers (not going to say he doesn't because I don't have that level of gear and don't use a parser anyhow), I'd be curious to whether or not he was using BB or not (which impacts SE & SP up time) and if he's using fracture (not sustainable for very long in terms of TP).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ooshima
Either way, a PLD with sword oath *should* be able to produce similar numbers given the math that has been done. I don't know if anyone has tried it with similar gear to the WAR. If the PLD wasn't close, I would want to know why there is a discrepancy. I've heard the extra PLD sword oath strikes didn't used to get picked up by parsers very well. I don't know if that's still an issue. -
06-25-2014, 01:28 PMOoshimaI was talking about a dummy parse earlier thou, which means you simply do max DPS combo which means it is eye and BB. My alt warrior which is using a i95 weapon, head and boots i110, other body armor i90 and i70 crafted accessories I deal 28X on dummy. These numbers are achievable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
On the real battlefield, while I do not know exactly how he works but in general say for T9, he simply opens with infuriate-IB then off defiance. Eye and BB combo for maximizing DPS but he will swap BB for Path at appropriate times like before Ravensbeak/claw. He does use Fracture. Not going to deny that this is TP hungry thou, his teammates acknowledged that he is TP hungry as well.
I am really not sure how PLD will come near WAR in terms if raw damage given both wearing STR gears. PLD's Sword Oath works for auto attacks but WAR's Storm Eye 10% debuff works for all of WAR's attacks. BB's potency is higher than Halone not to forget. Plus the bonus from Maim. While FoF works for 10s longer than Berserk and without a 5s Pacification debuff, but the 50% from Berserk is of no comparison.
With a recast of 2.5s for each weaponskills, a PLD can do 4x RoH combos in the 30s FoF buff, and each RoH combo is for a total of 610 potency, so 0.3 x 610 x 4 = 732 total potency gain. Divide this over 30, that is a 24.4 potencey/s gain from FoF.
On the other hand, WARs would go for 1x Eye combo which is 610 total potency, followed by 2x BB which is 630 and end with a Heavy Swing-Maim before Berserk ends and suffers from Pacification. So the raw potency within this 20s will be 610 + 630 + 630 + 150 + 190 = 2210. Taking into account that you will have a 5s pacification which means you are losing 2GCD worth of time, we can take that as 400 potency loss on average. 2210 - 400 = 1810. WAR's advantage here is that they can have Eye up all the time which is a 10% benefit, plus Maim which is another 20%, that's a "perm" 30% benefit. It is already like having a "perm" FoF. When combined with 50% of Berserk, during this 25s (20s berserk with 5s pacification debuff) it translate to 1810 x (0.5 + 0.2 + 0.1) = 1448 potency gain over 25s of time which translates to 57.92 potency/s increment. Even if we were to talk about Berserk only, 1810 x 0.5 over 25s = 36.22 potency/s which is still 48.44% higher than FoF's per/s gain.
Shield Oath's benefit will not be able to compare with the benefit of Maim + Eye from a WAR and the sheer difference in boost of Berserk over FoF. Even BB is 20 potency higher than Halone, WAR and PLD DPS simply can't be compared. That is the reason why WARs can simply rip off hate from PLD - and there are a lot of time if I open with Infuriate-IB-Off Defiance-Eye combo-2x BB combo, hate automatically goes to me and I can continue to hold hate off defiance while the competing PLD in i9X ish gear (my WAR is i89 now) can't take hate off me. In fact I knew this and I was a scumbag to some of the better geared PLDs when I run Main Scenario Roulette - when my opening BB crit for 1.2k ish I had fun seeing the PLD who assumed he was the MT trying hard to take the boss back from me LOL. WAR's raw power is just.. too delicious :)
EDIT: I noted that someone said earlier that PLD attacking the same target with the 10% slashing debuff will overtake.
Revisit the above math FoF alone is 0.3 x 610 x 4 = 732, so we change it to (0.1 +0.3) x 610 x 4, over 30s, that's 32.53 potency/s gain under FOF. Still lose to Berserk's 36.22 potency/s which has already taken account of the 5s Pacification loss. Berserk is still 11.33% higher than FoF per sec.
And the fact that Sword Oath's 50 potency buff only applies to auto attacks, while WAR's Maim is a 20% buff to every of his attacks, auto attack included. -
06-25-2014, 01:47 PMGiantbaneBerserk is 50% attack power for 20s, not 50% extra damage for 25s. It doesn't have any effect on your damage contribution from weapon damage or Det to my knowledge. I think people have ballparked it closer to +40% damage, but I don't know for sure. And again, you're losing 1-2 GCD attacks due to pacification every 1:30, which does pull berserk's buff back a bit. FoF is a flat 30% more damage, so it gets all the benefit of weapon damage and det included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ooshima
Sword Oath has been ballparked around 16% if I recall, so it gets very close to maim, and you don't need to use a lower potency attack for it either. Remember that 50 potency buff (i don't think it's exactly 50 potency either, there's some weirdness to it) is happening every melee swing. For a PLD it's getting the bonus every 2s, more than 1 per GCD attack. That adds up.
Where the PLD catches up is the off GCD attacks. War only has Brutal Swing @ 100 potency. PLD gets spirits within (up to 300pot) and circle of scorn (250pot).
Anyhow, according to kitru's math this put the PLD just below the WAR in DPS without SE and higher than the WAR with SE. Since we're talking about a WAR + PLD scenario, SE is available, which should make the PLD edge out the WAR ... as long as he gets SE. -
06-25-2014, 01:54 PMDano
i don't parse tank dps but i really doubt PLD on sword oath does more than WAR off defiance. Simply looking at the number of dmg buffs/debuff a warrior has access to and skill potency is enough to know.
maybe I'll try on a training dummy later on.
that said we are slowly going off topic. -
06-25-2014, 01:57 PMOoshima
Well tonight I can config my PLD to have same WD and STR stat as my WAR and get a WAR to party with me to keep SE buff up and see if PLD is really higher or not. :p
Whilst I don't main a WAR, but the fact that in my experience I have been ripping and at the same time, holding the ripped hate from better geared PLDs (than me) shows that the amount of damage generated by a DPS-ing WAR is high enough that these PLDs, even with enmity multiplier from Shield Oath, still could not catch up.
Well, if so I don't think there is a firm topic based on the title. The title itself would eventually point to a direction where WAR or PLD deals more DPS while being off tank mode. Either job can be a MT or OT all the way to T9, no issues. If anything it is about why a WAR or PLD is better for a MT based on each fight, whether we are dealing with constant damage or frequent spikes in damage to determine who's a better tank to use for that instance. If the players aren't concerned about it, WAR-WAR PLD-PLD WAR-PLD whatever, doesn't really matter. Eventually if you are concerned, you will be either min-maxing on whether you want WAR or PLD to be the MT due to constant or spike dmg, or simply just want to optimize raid DPS by choosing the higher DPS tank to be OT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano
Since OP asks on raid DPS, then we will be naturally looking at off tanking DPS capabilities of both jobs. -
06-25-2014, 02:21 PMKimura410
i haven't read thru this yet, but id bet most people will say what i am about to.
ive tested the exact gear between the two, and a PLD OT does better deeps than a WAR OT. This is with a WAR without defiance, and the PLD in sword oath. Its only a 5-9 % difference though, but hey, that can be the difference in an enrage.
however.....recently I've been rolling as paladin with dps stuff on trial roulette. i often get titan, and i run out of tp fairly quick. paladins have no way to regain tp as an off tank. shield swipe isn't available, because you aren't blocking shit. you'd need a bard in the party to play tp song. then you're jeopardizing the casters dps because that bard can't play foes for them while they are buffing up your tp.
id say its better to roll with the paladin as MT, because he won't have tp problems, and the warrior can go to town on his debuffs, so imo its better. paladin sword oath does do more damage though. -
06-25-2014, 02:25 PMKimura410keep in mind, storms eye buffs paladins damage as well. so whether the warrior is main tanking or off, if he uses SE, it will increase the paladins damage as well. i tested war vs pld a week or two ago, and paladin wins in sword oath vs a warrior no defiance. i used the exact same gear. the difference was around 5%. warrior does more damage as the main tank though. if you're solo tanking, warrior would do more dps than a paladin solo tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano
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06-25-2014, 02:25 PMBadRNGWhy are you adding in Brutal Swing's potency numbers but not Circle of Scorn or Spirits Within? And why aren't you accounting for the extra 50 potency per auto attack from Sword Oath into the total PLD potency production? (And don't forget PLD auto attacks more often than WAR) There's no question that WAR hits harder with weapon skills. The way PLD in sword oath potentially closes the gap is through off-gcd skills and passive damage from auto attacks. Talking about how high you can crit sort of misses the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ooshima
This is kitru's old math post comparing sword oath PLD to non-defiance WAR. -
06-25-2014, 02:47 PMFue
Yes people tend to underestimate sword oath.
It also scales from weapons autoattack time so faster weapons make it even better.
For example if you have 2s delay weapon just having sword oath on will add 25pot/s to your total dps.
Now if SE ever gave us 1s delay weapon it would double to 50pot/s. -
06-25-2014, 04:50 PMOoshimaI didn't include any OGCD etc, I was just solely comparing potency differences generated by standard combos under the effect of FoF vs Berserk. So nope there isn't any Brutal Swing included.Quote:
Originally Posted by BadRNG
OT WAR can just consume as much TP due to fracture also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimura410
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06-25-2014, 05:05 PMFueDifference is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ooshima
Brutal swing adds 5pot/s if its used every time its available.
Compare that to spirits and scorn that both add 10pot/s.
Thats 15pot/s that pld loses in calculations where you ignore off-GCD abilities -
06-25-2014, 05:35 PMAlphrasThats a really informative post, thank you. I guess this actually concludes this discussion. PLD OT and WAR MT (who keeps up Storm's Eye) is the best combination for total DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by BadRNG
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06-26-2014, 02:58 AMklopsMyself (High Allagan Axe) in full STR with a SE>SP rotation against our PLD (High Allagan Blade) in full STR with storms eye debuff: ~345 versus ~300 over 4:00-4:15. I'll give the PLD the benefit of the doubt and say 305-310 is possible considering he couldn't shield swipe the dummy. Show me a PLD that can maintain 345+ in sword oath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fue
Combine that with the fact that a warrior cannot maintain SE>SP rotation against a full STR sword oath'd paladin and is forced into either BB>SE>SP rotation (where you lose upwards of 7.5 seconds of SE) or BB>SE rotation and the difference is not "neglible" in terms of net group DPS. Threat is the number one limiting factor in this discussion.
Furthermore, the "benefit" of having your OT never have to enter defiance or shield oath is negated by the fact that you shouldn't even be running a second tank in that scenario. For all fights that require two tanks currently (there are close to none), having your WAR OT while rotating Unchained will always result in more net DPS than having a PLD OT while rotating Shield Oath.
If you want your math (or this thread, for that matter) to be useful, apply it to actual encounter mechanics. Example: every group in the world is guaranteed at least two Dreadnoughts on Turn 8 with average groups being stuck with three. If your PLD is OT, he will be required to sit shield oath for anywhere from 30 to 60 seconds depending on the group. If you force your WAR MT to tank the dreads so that your PLD can sit sword oath, why did you even bring a PLD to begin with? -
06-26-2014, 08:09 AMGiantbaneIs your parser accurately accounting for and attributing the extra sword oath strike? That used to be a problem, I don't know if it still is.Quote:
Originally Posted by klops
Since we're talking about the OT, you should be able to ignore shield swipe since that shouldn't be active.
true and important. Depends on how much of a lead the WAR can build up in the beginning with the BB > SE > unchained + berserk > BBx3 combo, and how much time the PLD spends away from the boss (tanking something else).Quote:
Originally Posted by klops
The point isn't that the PLD never has to enter shield oath, it's that he's going to be in shield oath *less* if he's OT. If he's MT, he's pretty much in shield oath the whole time, which is a big loss in DPS for the PLD for the entire fight. The WAR loses less when turning on Defiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by klops
The two big issues (in my mind) come down to whether or not the WAR will have troubles with threat, and whether or not you want the WAR's better DPS while tanking (and better AoE) to be utilized in burning down adds instead of the boss. -
06-26-2014, 05:04 PMDano
it's almost always better to have WAR take care of adds because of WAR's burst and AoE damage to burn adds down quick, unless the add requires special care like chain stuns / silence. And PLDs have so much cooldowns, they can tank the main boss without special attention from the healers while they heal up the off tank and party.
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06-26-2014, 10:41 PMTemariVtwo
The solution to this problem is War MT + War OT 8)
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06-26-2014, 10:55 PMklopsBecause the numbers didn't add up to actual in game experience (where 110 STR WARs are demolishing 110 STR PLDs), I investigated the math in that thread. Unfortunately, it is hilariously inaccurate on multiple levels. One of the most glaring examples is its assumption that pacification stops auto attacks. There is a lack of distinction between weaponskills and autoattacks in berserk's formula. Berserk is not calculated correctly at all. There is also no brutal swing in the warrior's rotation while there is spirits within and circle of scorn in the paladin's. I understand that most of that post was made in september, but I am speaking to the people who are referencing it as a source here in this thread. You are using incorrect formulas to back up your arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphras
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06-27-2014, 04:57 AMGiantbaneMissing 5s of unbuffed auto attacks out of every 90s is a very small portion of overall DPS. Auto-attacks are normalized to something like 100 potency every 2.8s. So that's 5 / 2.8 * 100 or 178.6 potency lost. 178.6/90 ~= 2 potency per second or ~5 potency per GCD.Quote:
Originally Posted by klops
Brutal swing wasn't forgotten, or ignored to slant the numbers. This was done back in September when Ifrit and Chimera were major bosses and the ability to use stuns (like brutal swing) at will wasn't always guaranteed. So it was left off. This isn't the case any longer, so it should be added back in. If you include it, that adds 100/20 = 5pot per second or 12.5 pot per GCD. To ballpark Berserk, it's an extra 20s of damage at like 40% every 90s. 20x.4 / 90 ~= 9%. Internal release is 5% for 15s every 60s, or 15 x .05 / 60 ~= 1%. So lets call that 10% extra from the buffs, so Brutal swing gives something like 13.75 potency per GCD.
Between the two that adds a grand total of 18.75 potency per GCD. That still puts the WAR damage below that of a PLD. But it doesn't end there.
There are also a couple of other important notes in there that you sort of didn't pay any attention to. The math was done with SE>BB instead of SE>SP that was used in your "in game experience". So the math is actually OVER estimating the damage for the rotation you used. SP does 40 potency less total over the 3 move combo. So over 6 moves (SE>BB) that's a difference of 40/6 ~= 6.7 potency per GCD. It's a little higher because of berserk + internal release and a little lower due to frac usage every 30s. Either way it still cuts a chunk of damage that basically more than nullifies the "hilarious" mistake in auto attack damage calculation.
The other important thing is that the PLD damage is also underestimated. It calculates the sword oath bonus only once every GCD, but every PLD weapon is faster than the GCD. That means that the sword oath bonus should be higher. My PLD using a break blade attacks once every 2.16s for 50 potency. So that's 50 x 2.5 x 2.16 ~= 57.9 potency per GCD. The math underestimates about 8 potency for PLD baseline and about 9 potency if you include FoF.
So if you take the damage underestimated for the WAR by the "hilarious inaccuracies" (~18.75 per gcd) vs. the differences between the math and the scenario you tested (~17potency) it still ends up at almost the same result.
So the math says the PLD should be doing ~9% more damage than the WAR does with the SE up, however, your tests show that the WAR is doing 15% more damage than the PLD. That is a MASSIVE swing between what the math shows and what you are seeing in your in game tests. An minor mistake and a small omission doesn't even come CLOSE to explaining that difference. You're going to need to find much, MUCH larger inaccuracies.
The other possibility is that the parser is wrong. I don't use 3rd party programs that can get me banned so someone else is going to have to test the accuracy of that.