Lower the TP cost on Piercing Talon

In its current state, Piercing Talon currently has very little use. There are more negatives then positives to PT which start with-
- Interrupt your combo
- Very taxing on TP
- Currently very weak (even weaker then True Thrust).

While the "positive" is that it is a ranged attack, the utility is definitely outweighed in this instance as rarely (if ever) it is not optimal to use it at all.

Ideally the skill would be useful in situations where you have to run away for a brief moment, or stand at a specific point, away from the boss for some kind of mechanic (which is a very frequent case), however due to the weak potency and huge TP cost, it makes it pretty much pointless to use in fights where TP can become a tad tight.

I don't believe this will unbalance DRG's damage as the increase will be very slight (120 potency attack every now and again more then what they could have done), but at least it would create a purpose at endgame other then pulling mobs when solo'ing quests.

Myself, and many other DRG's from 1.0 probably remember how useful throwing spears were in 1.0, (mainly for TP gain) but as a whole, using them was more "fun" then not using them as it let you be a little more creative on your playstyle.

So please bring back the ability to use these low potency, ranged attacks in end game content.

Not sure if this is the right place for this thread, but I agree. Piercing Talon really leaves a lot to be desired. I don't even have it bound to a key. It needs something...

I disagree in that Piercing Talon needs any change at all. Before we get into the specifics, my DRG is level 50 at i90. I know exactly what you must be referring to and the specifics of it all.

The specifics are as follows: Melee DPS job. Piercing Talon is more utility based than mainstream. Asking to change Piercing Talon is like asking to make jump-based attacks more mainstream. One could argue that the Dragoon is not a Dragoon due to lack of signature presence as a job in whole.

Enhancing an ability like Piercing Talon on DRG in the manner you are suggesting is like suggesting that MNK gets a ranged attack other than Howling Fist. Or rather, to change Howling Fist to have a 1 second cooldown as Piercing Talon does, and to perhaps cost TP.

Bards should have a melee-based attack that can perhaps be utilitarian or not. Take for example World of Warcraft's Hunter class who has Wingclip (slows target movement by a percentage).

But ultimately, you need to remember one thing. Piercing Talon is not a Dragoon ability. It is carried over from being a Lancer. Piercing Talon is a remnant from being a Lancer who may or may not have had better use of it in a advantageous or utilitarian means.

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Originally Posted by Alena

it makes it pretty much pointless to use in fights where TP can become a tad tight.

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Don't forget that a lot of seemingly useful abilities are left behind since they are also "pretty much pointless to use" for other classes/jobs. Archer's Quick Nock and Rain of Death, Arcanist's Miasma II, the plethora of abilities that can be interchanged with Pugilist/Monk's attack combos, etc.

Piercing Talon has no use not because it is TP expensive...its a ranged attack on a melee. Our job is to stab things, not throw pointy things at things (that's a BRD's job). Talon is mostly a soloing thing, to grab or claim a mob that's just out of reach. In groups, you'd use it to get one little hit in on a boss to keep DPS from hitting 0 during an AoE (or like on Titan EX, that one bomb pattern that sometimes covers him entirely)

Not every ability needs to have a purpose in ALL content.

If there's a DRG skill to look at, however...its Feign. When is the last time anyone used that waste of TP beyond when you got it and saw it sucked?


One last thing...our rotation is long enough as it is...do we really need to make it longer and more complicated?

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Originally Posted by Altaeciana

Don't forget that a lot of seemingly useful abilities are left behind since they are also "pretty much pointless to use" for other classes/jobs. Archer's Quick Nock

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Except Quick Nock is a BRD's best AoE...they just have to be in range for the cone. Yes, someone did the TP calculations and the lesser TP cost on QN is better than the chance for free RoD on Wide Volley (which never procs anyway).

Most BRD just like to be flashy, but less effective (looks at all the BRD who sing Paeon instead of Foe's when AoEing with a BLM)

Not quoting to save character length but:

Just because DRG is a melee, doesn't mean it can't have a single, weak, circumstantial ranged attack.... It's not like you are going to sit at a distance and spam piercing talon all fight...

Throwing spears were pretty iconic in a sense, as was a Chi Blast style ability for MNK (which is currently lacking in this game). I am also in no means trying to discredit ranged classes here, but having a single ranged attack that is usable when DRG cannot get in close, would at least prevent you from standing there looking silly. It also allows you to get a single attack in while closing in on a target if your gap closers are on CD, which is surprisingly often in certain fights. (Levi being one example).

I don't really think MNK truly needs a ranged attack (aside from HF) for the reason that Shoulder Tackle is on such a low CD to begin with. Sure it couldn't hurt to give them a ranged GCD ability, but they are in less of a need then making DRG's talon usable in my opinion. While DRG has 3x gap closers, 2 of them are on extremely long CD's, and quite often Dragonfire is better to hold on to if the fight includes adds.

I am also not saying all abilities "need" a purpose, however reducing the outrageous cost on Talon would be an extremely small change to make a currently near-useless skill usable in end game. Why would anyone in this community be against making a skill a tad more usable? Regardless whether you are a main DRG or not. It should not be a case of "I main xxxx job, DRG shouldn't have xxxx skill because my job doesn't have xxxx".. It's a case of making a skill useful, that would honestly have little impact to anyone else, other then making a DRG a little more interesting to play. I am pretty sick of this cross-job war that continues to go on in relation to this. Classes as a whole are reasonably balanced (each are strong in their own situation). Generally there isn't any class in the game that you just don't use because they are "garbage"..

It also would be nowhere near enough to outbalance classes in its current state - as it stands MNK is a better option for every turn in SCoB when it comes to melee. BRD & SMN's ranged damage is superior (as is BLM's if they are allowed to turret). So truly allowing 1x 120 potency skill more usable really wouldn't hurt the overall balance.

As far as the comment about DRG's "already long rotation"... Sorry but if you are solely sticking to that rotation every fight, all the time, then something is seriously wrong.. "Rotations" in this game are: Keep buffs/DoT's up, and use filler, sticking to that strict 48-string rotation (or whatever it is) is practically impossible.. Talon (if usable) is really just a once-in-a-while filler, when you can't melee the mob due to mechanics. If that is really going to disrupt your "ridiculously-long-rotation" then once again, something is really wrong there. I mean how often do you make the decision to clip Chaos or Phleb, because you know you will have to run away soon? If you aren't sliding away from the rotation to do something as simple as this then your "rotation" truly isn't optimal.

I won't disagree that Feint is completely useless, and is a waste of an ability slot - about as useless as One Ilm Punch (at the moment), and other jobs have similar cases. Working on adjusting those skills would be another topic, however this discussion isn't about any of those skills - it is about Talon. Forget about what other skills are useless, and keep this topic on Talon - as the other skills are honestly irrelevant to this discussion. This topic is about picking one of those less useful skills, simply reducing the TP cost, and making it usable at end game.

An alternative for the naysayers -

Put it on a 90 second CD, 0 TP cost, reduce the potency to 50 or so, but throw an additional effect that reduces the target's physical defence by a certain percentage for 10 seconds. (Basically similar to Angon in FFXI). While this is going far away from the "having a ranged attack to use during downtime" discussion, it turns into more of a utility skill for the party in straight zergs.

Allows you to still use it for pulls while you are solo'ing if you wish, but also adds in that utility for EG content. This adjustment however, has a much higher risk of the job vs job wars to fire up again.

The changes I would like to see with piercing talon is to NOT break the current combo, also slightly less tp cost would be nice as it does rubbish damage anyways so that is the penalty for using it.

Just lessening the TP cost will be fine for me!

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Piercing Talon has no use not because it is TP expensive...its a ranged attack on a melee. Our job is to stab things, not throw pointy things at things (that's a BRD's job). Talon is mostly a soloing thing, to grab or claim a mob that's just out of reach. In groups, you'd use it to get one little hit in on a boss to keep DPS from hitting 0 during an AoE (or like on Titan EX, that one bomb pattern that sometimes covers him entirely)

Not every ability needs to have a purpose in ALL content.

If there's a DRG skill to look at, however...its Feign. When is the last time anyone used that waste of TP beyond when you got it and saw it sucked?


One last thing...our rotation is long enough as it is...do we really need to make it longer and more complicated?

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If you're just wanting to hit single bombs in Brayflox with the fast animation Feint is the way to go! lol outside of that its useless

The point of talking about the other classes/jobs "useless" skills is to bring into frame that if changes were made to your one desired skill here for LNC (not DRG), then the devs would have to go around and change everything else. If they did an abilities update, I am sure LNC/DRG would see more than one change (maybe even what some would call detrimental or breaking). As a developer, that's what I would do after having sat down in a conference meeting to address possible changes. I mean, why wait and not change it now? "True Thrust should be granted a flank potency bonus." And make all DRGs into MNKs where they have to dance between flank-rear positions to maximize DPS. Is that what you want?

And this:

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Originally Posted by Altena

Just because DRG is a melee, doesn't mean it can't have a single, weak, circumstantial ranged attack.... It's not like you are going to sit at a distance and spam piercing talon all fight...

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That is exactly what your OP post is asking for! In fact, any references to DRG being a melee DPS was not insinuating that it shouldn't have Piercing Talon. One poster even mentioned that it is something you can already do during those mini-downtimes you get from being forced to evade attacks. Your OP post makes it sound like you want to be able to spam it all fight long while Titan does 3x Landslide with a follow up of Weight of the Land.

Likewise, many of the posters have said it is fine as it is, myself included. And lastly, you continue to disregard the fact that it is not a DRG skill, it is a LNC skill. Some skills are given to the classes because they are a prelude to what may come when later changed as a job. Take for example my reference to Archer's Quick Nock. One can say it is a mini-version of the commonly used Wide Volley. And some skills are just there for utilitarian purposes. It is so obvious that mainstream usage was never intended.

If I were part of the developer team, I too would have made Piercing Talon ridiculously costly and "not worth the while except in certain cases." I want DRGs to stand by the enemy, not away from it. If I were a developer...

The problems will become more pronounced if SE ever evolves this game into a modern mmo, and we can see real data regarding disconnects during fights. As it stands right now, this is a pseudommo in many regards, so this is why there will be pushback against making "melee" classes have weak "ranged" abilities that are useful.

I do expect that at some point, when SE realizes that progression raiders want complicated content that they can maximize classes against, things like Piercing Talon will be revisited. I also agree that melee classes ESPECIALLY need compensation for disconnects.

Piercing Talon is totally useless for a DRG.

Piercing Talon is pretty much useless for a LNC.

Piercing Talon could be imperative for the Lancer-based Tank class : D

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I also agree that melee classes ESPECIALLY need compensation for disconnects.

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It's already in game and called higher DPS when you don't disconnect. :/ And yeah Piercing Talon makes me think they might want to implement Templar as a Lancer-based Tank seeing how both mrd and gld get their range pull at 15.

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Originally Posted by Altaeciana

Don't forget that a lot of seemingly useful abilities are left behind since they are also "pretty much pointless to use" for other classes/jobs. Archer's Quick Nock and Rain of Death, Arcanist's Miasma II, the plethora of abilities that can be interchanged with Pugilist/Monk's attack combos, etc.

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Quick Knock is Bard's best AoE if they are well positioned and Miasma II is staple in the smn's opening rotation and on anything that has 2 or more targets in its range.

That quote makes your credibility on this topic leave much to be desired.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

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Want an example where PT is not useless?

-You get "heavy" and use evasive jump to get rid of it, now you can use piercing talon while getting back to melee

-the monster you're targeting is about to die, with your DOT on you can afford to switch target before killing him since he'll die in a second, use PT while running to the next one

-there's an AOE you need to dodge, use PT while it lasts until you're back to melee

And so on.

Don't go telling me that it depletes your tp, the cost isn't that high besides you got a skill to refill your tp not to mention the potion whose price is reaaaaally cheap and gives you enough time for the refill skill (forgot the name) to finish its cd, you just have no excuses not to use it.

But yeah I do think it would be quite useful for a future tank class tho it doesn't have any enmity effect :/

Invigorate. :)

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

Quotable Quotey Quotes

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Not sure how hard you play, but without Piercing talon im still running low on TP in a lot of Endgame content, even with invigorate. any piercing talons in their would drop my DPS prfoundly because of the TP cost

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

the cost isn't that high besides you got a skill to refill your tp not to mention the potion whose price is reaaaaally cheap and gives you enough time for the refill skill

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Piercing Talon is 130 TP for 120 potency. It's up there as one of the worst TP/potency skill. And please tell me about this magical reaaaaally cheap potion you're talking about cause no potions ingame gives you TP.
Last but not least: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...nt/detail/747/
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...nt/category/3/

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Originally Posted by Altaeciana

The point of talking about the other classes/jobs "useless" skills is to bring into frame that if changes were made to your one desired skill here for LNC (not DRG)

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You are evidently arguing semantics. At end game (which is what we are talking about here), you would be a fool to choose LNC over DRG. Therefore the adjustment would effect DRG.

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, then the devs would have to go around and change everything else.

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No, they don't "have" to do anything. Some classes already have "more" useless skills then others. This is not a job vs job war here, which it appears you seem to keep falling back on. Piercing Talon is ONE of the more useless skills in this entire game, with a simple TP adjustment could make it useful. Other skills, on other classes have more issues then simply costing too much TP. Why are you so against adjusting one skill for one class in such a minute way? As an archer main (according to your profile) you are probably one of the classes that has the least amount of "useless" skills. Why are you complaining if DRG were to get a TP reduction on a weak ranged attack? It's not like your life as a BRD will change...

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If they did an abilities update, I am sure LNC/DRG would see more than one change (maybe even what some would call detrimental or breaking).

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Slight adjustments are made pretty much every major patch. Some slight nerfs, some buffs, that's just the way balancing goes. All I am asking for is a TP reduction on Talon. Not really much to ask for compared to others complaining that BLM damage is too weak.

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As a developer, that's what I would do after having sat down in a conference meeting to address possible changes. I mean, why wait and not change it now? "True Thrust should be granted a flank potency bonus." And make all DRGs into MNKs where they have to dance between flank-rear positions to maximize DPS. Is that what you want?

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Wot? Please tell me where I said anything about positional requirements, or are you just going off on a random tangent that is completely irrelevent to this discussion. NO I do not want DRG to be like MNK. If I did, why wouldn't I just play MNK as well? Guess what, I already do! Such a shock.

And this:

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That is exactly what your OP post is asking for! In fact, any references to DRG being a melee DPS was not insinuating that it shouldn't have Piercing Talon

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Ermmmm no lol... If I wanted a full ranged DPS I would play BRD or a caster. (Which I also do for grindy content already). What I am asking for is to reduce the TP cost of a skill that is already in the game, make it worth using so that we can fill the gap during disconnects. Where in my post are you getting the impression that I want to be a DRG that sits at ranged and spams Piercing Talon all day?

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One poster even mentioned that it is something you can already do during those mini-downtimes you get from being forced to evade attacks. Your OP post makes it sound like you want to be able to spam it all fight long while Titan does 3x Landslide with a follow up of Weight of the Land.

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Then you are evidently reading my OP incorrectly. There is already a disadvantage to using Talon during disconnects and that is it interrupts your combo, on top of that it is extremely weak and has a huge TP cost. In its current state, it is actually an extremely poor choice - to use Talon for any reason aside from solo pulling while questing. Reducing the cost to approximately the same as a combo starter (70-80TP) would at least make it usable.

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Likewise, many of the posters have said it is fine as it is, myself included.

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There will always be people who disagree. Regardless which side is "right" doesn't really matter. Do the people that say it is "fine as it is" actually use it in a fight? My bets are no. The point of reducing the cost would to make it less useless. It is only ONE of the many useless skills in this game, yet it is one of the easiest skills to adjust to make it useful.

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And lastly, you continue to disregard the fact that it is not a DRG skill, it is a LNC skill.

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Seriously, who cares where it comes from? Do you see any LNC's at lvl 50 doing coil or even primals? I don't.. In fact do you really ever see a LNC beyond level 30 - if they have unlocked the DRG quest? You can practically disregard classes once you hit 30. Once again, your argument is on semantics and is extremely weak/pointless.

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Some skills are given to the classes because they are a prelude to what may come when later changed as a job.

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What does this have to do with reducing TP cost of a LNC skill? Reducing the TP cost on a "LNC" skill doesn't affect the lore one bit.. It simply makes a skill once again - more usable.

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Take for example my reference to Archer's Quick Nock. One can say it is a mini-version of the commonly used Wide Volley. And some skills are just there for utilitarian purposes. It is so obvious that mainstream usage was never intended.

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So you are saying that we have a skill because it's "lore"? That's ridiculous and extremely untrue lol.. Every skill has a purpose. Whether that skill is in its current state, useful or not is beside the point. For a lot of them, simply adjusting them slightly would make them a more usable skill, however what I am requesting with Talon is probably the smallest adjustment the devs could make to a skill.

Even ARC/BRD's AoE skills have their own individual purpose.
Quick Knock has the lowest TP cost, however requires you to be up close, and it is restricted to a cone. The TP cost is lower because the requirements / ease of use is also higher.
Wide Volley being the opposite - 20 more TP hungry, however it's ranged, and is AoE around the target, so easier to hit stuff, and is ranged - so costs more TP.. They are 2 different skills - for 2 different uses. It just so happens that they threw in a random proc chance / chain, so if you wish, you can spam Wide Volley at 160 TP with a random freebee RoD, or you can stick with the lower TP cost and get 0 procs with Quick Knock..
As for Rain of Death, It got nerfed (probably the most likely cause was to make WAR more appealing with Storm's Path. Stacking both RoD & Path would be a tad overpowered), however the concept of an AoE that has a debuff associated with it is quite strong as a utility skill. (Hence why the extra 20 TP cost on Wide Volley)..

However once again, this isn't a job vs job war here.. Lowering the TP cost on Talon has zero effect on any other class in the game.

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If I were part of the developer team, I too would have made Piercing Talon ridiculously costly and "not worth the while except in certain cases." I want DRGs to stand by the enemy, not away from it. If I were a developer...

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Sorry to say, but you are not part of the dev team, and the engagements (aside from a few specific fights) require melee to detach from the mob from time to time - even Turn 6 is a great example, with the vines/tethers. If you are under the impression that all melee just stand next to the mob and bash it *all the time* then you are gravely mistaken I am afraid.

As for the issues with such skills like Feint and One Ilm Punch, the main reason they are useless is either:
a) The debuff doesn't stick
b) There is no reason to debuff (or dispel) anything worth while.

If the devs wanted to adjust these skills to make them useful, then the easiest way would be to allow them to stick to a boss - or introducing a mechanic that requires it (such as an attack buff on a certain boss that can be dispelled with One Ilm Punch), or taking these skills off GCD with 0 TP cost, and perhaps lowering the potency.

However that is a topic for another day. The only point of this thread is to allow Talon to be used at end game without it being taxing enough to the point of it actually being a set back.

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Originally Posted by Altena

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Sorry to say, but you are not part of the dev team, and the engagements (aside from a few specific fights) require melee to detach from the mob from time to time - even Turn 6 is a great example, with the vines/tethers. If you are under the impression that all melee just stand next to the mob and bash it *all the time* then you are gravely mistaken I am afraid.

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I'll address your impression that melee is forced to no being able to stand next to the mob and bash it all the time. The definition between a good melee player and an average melee player is his ability to stick on to the boss as much as possible, minimizing down-time.

No offence both of u, Altena and Altaeciana have valid points but im not too sure whether you understand what makes a good melee dps and what makes a efficient raid.

Let's just use your example of Turn 6. Common mistake of average melee dpsers, not hitting the boss when you don't get vined or floral trapped and tunneling in on getting into the "right position". That's down-time no matter what and does reducing TP of PT help here for inactivity? Answer is no.

Yes getting vines attached to u is annoying. Do you and your raid break the vines fast enough so that you can get back on the boss and minimize downtime and most importantly take minimal damage such that your healer doesn't need to top you up? Does reducing TP of PT here help? Answer still no cause of the instability of firing PT while on the move, making you move back towards the boss and possibly making you walk back into the danger zone while lengthening the time period to break the chains thus taking more damage.

Yes getting floral trapped is annoying, it purposefully makes you stay away from rafflesia. Throwing PTs while waiting for it to go off is cool, you get say 3 to 4 PTs off waiting for the sign to be off you. Here the difference between an average melee and a good melee is that an average melee tries to slowly walk back to rafflesia after the trap sign goes off and a good melee jumps back (shoulder charge low cd, drg 3 jumps to bring u to the boss) after rafflesia does devour. Is the TP cost of 3 to 4 PTs punishing? No because of the other boss mechanic called Blighted Bouquet. It's essentially a 120-180 TP top up thanks to making your character inactive for 2 to 3 ticks. So does reducing TP cost of PT here help? Negligible impact, i rather you increase the damage of PT. DRG's fall off DPS is already disgusting enough compared to any class in the game.

Any good DRG definitely will not run out of TP in any of the fights, with the SOLE exception of Turn 8. You will run out of TP if you are missing your initiation skills (Impulse Drive, Heavy Thrust) because of bad positioning. They made it exceptionally punishing to miss such skills by having these skills cost 10 more TP than ur battle time TP regen. Using Phble, Disembowel and the above 2 skills at the wrong rotations also have the same impact.

Rather than crying foul at the TP cost of PT, which im totally dumbfounded for why people even bothered to argue this, why don't spend more time propositioning higher potency for three-Thrust combo because our DPS drop off after the first 30 seconds of the fight till the 3rd minute of the fight is so bad that we will never ever catch up with monk's DPS in long fights ever, given the same gear set and player proficiency.

Peace.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

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Seriously??! I thought for sure that I once received an item that give some tp like the potions do (tho I never used it since invigorate, praise the eggnook, is more than enough to me)

But I admit PT is kinda poorly made, but still usable, all I did was saying that you can use it without running out of tp and situation in which it can be useful, but yeah unless you're in that precise kind of situation you have absolutely no reason to use it and even in those situation you can easily keep going without using it *cough* titan ex with his lame ass range for aoe *cough* x3

Altena.... I once saw a 50 pugilist going for a primal once xD so there are people who just don't give a crap about jobs (well in his case he didn't even knew that the job system exist >_>)

Remember that SE designed these skills with a 2 year road map already planned out. It may be that, while PT is not THAT useful for a DRG, it could very well be incredibly useful for Lancer's 2nd job (most likely some sort of light tank with utility), thus why they felt the large TP cost was needed.

Not saying this is a definite, but just as a reminder that SE has this game planned out a LOT farther than most people realize.

You must also remember that this skill existed way before yoshida and the gang took the game, so the purpose it had back then is no longer the same.

Also, if they wanted to make this a tank skill, it would have a effect on enmity, the problem is that it doesn't and that you have to throw it quite a lot of time to actually get the mob if his enmity on your pal is high (I know because I once had to tank due to some "not the dungeon I want, seeya" guy)
So unless they bring some change to the skill, it won't be usable for tanks since the tp cost is way to high to rely on this to get mobs on you.
Personally I think they just kept it because it already existed but didn't knew what to do with it, I may be wrong but at least that way I don't wonder too much about it and do go wild with crazy theories u_u

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

Seriously??! I thought for sure that I once received an item that give some tp like the potions do (tho I never used it since invigorate, praise the eggnook, is more than enough to me)

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There is, but it's PvP only:
Regain Feather
Icarus Wing

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

There is, but it's PvP only:
Regain Feather
Icarus Wing

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Oh.... Pvp only huh.... Oh well then tank or not, dont use it too much or you're screwed, simply xD

DRG does well enough with the tools it has as they are. Just because you'd like them to be better in a different way doesn't mean the job itself would still be balanced if you got that buff.

You can't just ask for a skill to be buffed without considering that larger question: "Is the job balanced? Would it be balanced with this buff?"

As far as Feint goes, it was mentioned as another bad skill. It's obviously more of a support skill, actually makes quite a difference if you're soloing tough caster mobs LoS'ing their spells, and isn't quite as bad on a job that has lower potency per hit like BRD, not as a regular thing of course, but there's fights where the slight dps loss is worth the utility. I've soloed caster mobs in leves 5 levels above me that would've wrecked me if they could get their spells off.

The problem alistaire, is that feint becomes truly useless in end game since most mobs are immune to slow, which means that what looked at first like a nice support skill becomes an useless benchwarmer

Last place I remember using it was on BRD @ CT on iron giants. 1 person sac'ing only 20? potency for an attack in a situation with 12 dps to support the healers' need to cure that tank is hardly a useless benchwarmer, nor does it have to become a star of the show to be worthwhile.

It goes back to the bigger picture, are the jobs that can access it balanced? Yes. One could even say BRD is a bit stronger than balanced so they'd want to be careful about buffing skills they put to better use than the main job that gets them.

Again this is not a problem of balance, the classes are already well balanced as they are, some sure are a bit "stronger" but overall none of them is useless.

No this is a problem of game design, when you make a skill become useless after a certain moment, it usually means that something will replace it, either with similar but not exactly the same effects or with the same effects but boosted, for example stone and stone II, however stone is still useful as it is since it slow your opponent in case of Hate and allows you to keep dealing damage and saving mp.

The problem with feint is that there is that the skill itself becomes useless not because it is replaced by another but because it's effects are nullified by the opponent, thus creating this skill becomes in end game a waste of time and something that unbalances the class when compared to the others.

I may have not played all the classes but I didn't saw any other class nor heard of any other class that have a skill that truly becomes useless in the end, and by useless I mean that using it is a waste of time and tp/mp

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

Again this is not a problem of balance...

I may have not played all the classes but I didn't saw any other class nor heard of any other class that have a skill that truly becomes useless in the end, and by useless I mean that using it is a waste of time and tp/mp

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It is a problem of balance, because when all is said and done the primary goal/question has to be "do the hard fights remain hard for the reasons they're meant to be hard?"

If you're not proposing a buff there's no point saying what you're saying at all.

If you are proposing a buff, it's either to what enemies it works on, or its general potency.

Its general potency is fine, especially when it's a key skill in dealing with various low level content well before your level would normally permit you to tackle it.

Working on bosses it would become a crutch; slow is very very potent. SE realised that in FFXI. There's a reason bards subbed Black Mage to things like Khimera, for the elemental seal slow. (for the non-ffxi inclined, Bards set a completely useless subjob solely for the purpose of making their slow stick, and that would be very...instrumental in winning)

As far as other classes not having useless abilities in the end, oh my... One-ilm punch, skull sunder/butcher's block (not 100% useless but very rarely room in a good rotation), freeze, tri-disaster, ifrit-egi, sleep/repose, even something like touch of death becomes a liability in endgame fights due to tp cost. And feint retains more usefulness than any skill in my list.

Might as well say let's buff sleep so it works on bosses sometimes, then we'll end up where ffxi was, sleeping fafnir/tiamat to totally trivialise the fight. Tiamat especially became utterly boring with blms sleeping on each touchdown, and the only thing that made that fight ever a challenge was that it took a while for people to figure out that strat.

I see so there are quite a lot... however I never talked about buffing the skill, its just that the slow resistance becomes so high that the skill becomes useless( oh and by the way, it is far from being a key skill, you can easily go all the way to 50 without using it.)

now I dont know much about the other but I sure hope they still have somewhat of an utility in end game otherwise it means the devs really have issues with managing their content :/

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

One-ilm punch, skull sunder/butcher's block (not 100% useless but very rarely room in a good rotation), freeze, tri-disaster, ifrit-egi, sleep/repose, even something like touch of death becomes a liability in endgame fights due to tp cost. And feint retains more usefulness than any skill in my list.

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Yes. What? Yes. Yes. Kinda, some people like it. Yes. What? Haymaker is another useless one.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

skull sunder/butcher's block (not 100% useless but very rarely room in a good rotation),

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HUH?! o.o

Errrrrrrrm, if you don't use Skull/Butcher's I have absolutely no idea how you intend to keep hate.
In fact all of WAR's weapon skills are extremely useful.
Storms Eye for slashing resistance, Storm's Path for damage mitigation, Maim for damage buff, Fracture is WAR's highest potency single hit skill.

Skull/Butcher's is pretty much the core combo in order to keep hate... I have absolutely no idea what you're tanking without them.

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The adjustment isn't a huge "buff".. It is simply balancing a skill to make it usable with a slight TP reduction. Not asking for a damage buff on it - or an increase in range, or anything that ridiculous - simply reducing the TP to a usable level. As I mentioned in one of the first posts, this thread isn't really about other skills (yes there are indeed quite a lot of skills that need to be looked at), however many of those skills are a bit more complex then simply adjusting the TP cost of one.

For example, although it may be easy to simply "make feint useful by letting it land on bosses", the balancing that is actually involved with that is the more challenging part.

Hence why I tried to stick primarily to Talon because it is an extremely simple adjustment and won't really make DRG unbalanced or "overpowered".
Yes it is already a powerful melee (MNK still trumps it in a lot of situations) however adjusting Talon really isn't a huge "buff" to DRG, it's more of a buff to the way the job plays.

Having the ability to use a weak ranged attack during disconnects just increases the playstyle/flavour of the job really. A highly mobile lancer that is able to use throwing spears and jump on mobs.. I mean we are Dragon slayers for crying out loud :/

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Originally Posted by Spartan117

I'll address your impression that melee is forced to no being able to stand next to the mob and bash it all the time. The definition between a good melee player and an average melee player is his ability to stick on to the boss as much as possible, minimizing down-time.

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That's the definition of any DPS. Not just melee. For BLM as an example - the definition of a "good BLM" is to minimize movement in general, and use Manipulation whenever it's possible.

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No offence both of u, Altena and Altaeciana have valid points but im not too sure whether you understand what makes a good melee dps and what makes a efficient raid.

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No offence to you either, however you don't know me, nor do I know you, or Altaeciana in that respect. The way that this sentence comes off is actually quite invective and presumptuous.

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Let's just use your example of Turn 6. Common mistake of average melee dpsers, not hitting the boss when you don't get vined or floral trapped and tunneling in on getting into the "right position". That's down-time no matter what and does reducing TP of PT help here for inactivity? Answer is no.

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This isn't an actual disconnect, this is a player not paying attention.

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Yes getting vines attached to u is annoying. Do you and your raid break the vines fast enough so that you can get back on the boss and minimize downtime and most importantly take minimal damage such that your healer doesn't need to top you up? Does reducing TP of PT here help? Answer still no cause of the instability of firing PT while on the move, making you move back towards the boss and possibly making you walk back into the danger zone while lengthening the time period to break the chains thus taking more damage.

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As a melee, you often do not have to run very far - a few steps toward the side of the boss and the vines will generally break (depending who you are tethered to). However in cases where you do, PT is perfectly viable here. If you cannot throw Talon and continue running backward - then you haven't spent enough time on BRD. It is very easy throw Talon while running in the opposite direction if you have good control of your character. Jumping is another ideal way to do this (jump and throw talon, which keeps your character moving away from the boss, then hold right mouse button and continue running away/strafing.)

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Yes getting floral trapped is annoying, it purposefully makes you stay away from rafflesia. Throwing PTs while waiting for it to go off is cool, you get say 3 to 4 PTs off waiting for the sign to be off you. Here the difference between an average melee and a good melee is that an average melee tries to slowly walk back to rafflesia after the trap sign goes off and a good melee jumps back (shoulder charge low cd, drg 3 jumps to bring u to the boss) after rafflesia does devour. Is the TP cost of 3 to 4 PTs punishing? No because of the other boss mechanic called Blighted Bouquet. It's essentially a 120-180 TP top up thanks to making your character inactive for 2 to 3 ticks. So does reducing TP cost of PT here help? Negligible impact, i rather you increase the damage of PT. DRG's fall off DPS is already disgusting enough compared to any class in the game.

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Trap isn't really the issue here depending on your group, many use the line of site / briar-less strategy. You will be stunned for a couple of seconds however there is very little movement (and you are actually always on the boss). The major example in T6 was vines. As I already mentioned previously however - DRG, having 3x gap closers (2 on fairly long CD's) doesn't *always* have a gap closer up if the mechanics of a busy fight such as T6 or T7, are hating on you.

In addition to this, DRG's gap closers fill up the entire portion of the GCD (plus some), so throwing a Talon before using a gap closer is an extra attack that you would be unable to get in otherwise - So Talon>Closer>Impulse/heavy/etc and you are one extra attack better off.

As for Blighted, yes it does help with TP, however 3-4 Talons (at 130TP each) is a huge 360TP cost (minimum). Sorry to say but yes, that is definitely going to cause TP issues.

Once again, the decrease in TP cost is not really to buff DRG's DPS because simply reducing the TP cost wouldn't increase it to any notable amount. You might be able to get a few extra Talons at (120 potency) over an entire fight, that you wouldn't have done otherwise - which will be an increase of 300-500 potency over the course of the entire fight - that is pretty much insignificant.

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Any good DRG definitely will not run out of TP in any of the fights, with the SOLE exception of Turn 8. You will run out of TP if you are missing your initiation skills (Impulse Drive, Heavy Thrust) because of bad positioning. They made it exceptionally punishing to miss such skills by having these skills cost 10 more TP than ur battle time TP regen. Using Phble, Disembowel and the above 2 skills at the wrong rotations also have the same impact.

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If you throw in 130 TP talons in there - yes a DRG most certainly will run out (hence the point of this thread). In its current state - no, DRG doesn't get to the point where they are waiting for TP ticks, as long as they aren't missing combos and don't use one of their skills (point of this post once more).

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Rather than crying foul at the TP cost of PT, which im totally dumbfounded for why people even bothered to argue this, why don't spend more time propositioning higher potency for three-Thrust combo because our DPS drop off after the first 30 seconds of the fight till the 3rd minute of the fight is so bad that we will never ever catch up with monk's DPS in long fights ever, given the same gear set and player proficiency.

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Because it doesn't really need it? We already got our damage buff, and it pretty much made it reasonably balanced. Yes MNK is still more effective in every turn of the 2nd coil, if played correctly. However for the most part - DRG's damage is on par (or at least close enough to).

What you mentioned is "working as intended" though.. MNK is sustained damage over a long period, and DRG's damage is primarily spike. Straight zergs where DPS can stay glued to the mob (like T8), MNK will most certainly be top DPS. Fights that involve a heavy amount of disconnects (Let's say, many of the Primal fights with long animations or jumps/dashes) where GL will fall off are a different story.

I don't care for a DRG damage buff. I don't really think it needs it. It did (and it got it) and while it may still be under what it could be - it is pretty much fine for now in comparison to other classes.. If you were to go down that route, I believe that MNK should actually be taken down a notch (Incoming flame from main MNKs). SMN is in that category as well. Although I consider myself a main DRG, I don't really care if their damage is considered "lower" then a certain class, as it just makes me work harder to pull my weight..

This thread isn't about a huge damage buff for DRG, get that out of your head. It is about making a skill that is in our quiver, something that can be used without unbalancing any classes, add a little flavour/playstyle, and reduce the downtime during disconnects.

I've read this entire thread so far OP, and I do agree it needs a very slight TP cost adjustment, but in just my own opinion, I think the damage should be changed from flat damage to a dot to deter people from spamming it. Talon is nice as a filler when you have to run out, but I don't often find myself using it, and when I do its never really more than 1 talon. But on topic, I agree lowering TP cost from 130 to, say, 90, is justified, especially when you consider Talon is the weakest attack we have as DRGs with its potency of 120.

the only time i used it is really when in T7, melusine uses the AoE, and usually at the start one rotation would end just nice (with BfB FT+LS), i would run out and throw a talon in you know, just for fun.

Some yes and some no again. But I'm not going to spend more time arguing for PT's case cause to me that small little decrease in TP cost or increase in damage would have immaterial impact on dps anyway (it's not going to cover a near 15% dps difference between monk and dragoon).

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Originally Posted by Altena

If you cannot throw Talon and continue running backward - then you haven't spent enough time on BRD. It is very easy throw Talon while running in the opposite direction if you have good control of your character. Jumping is another ideal way to do this (jump and throw talon, which keeps your character moving away from the boss, then hold right mouse button and continue running away/strafing.)

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Not everyone knows this, and i do see people screwing up chains causing deaths. And again nothing to argue about anyway. I was just presenting possible uses of PT as fillers where you are forced not to be in melee range.

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Trap isn't really the issue here depending on your group, many use the line of site / briar-less strategy. You will be stunned for a couple of seconds however there is very little movement (and you are actually always on the boss). The major example in T6 was vines. As I already mentioned previously however - DRG, having 3x gap closers (2 on fairly long CD's) doesn't *always* have a gap closer up if the mechanics of a busy fight such as T6 or T7, are hating on you.

In addition to this, DRG's gap closers fill up the entire portion of the GCD (plus some), so throwing a Talon before using a gap closer is an extra attack that you would be unable to get in otherwise - So Talon>Closer>Impulse/heavy/etc and you are one extra attack better off.

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Same again, proposed a possible use of PT as filler. And for specific fights like T6, i very much prefer to remove gap closers from my rotations mainly to secure the advantages of moving out of blight fast and thus less burden on the healers (same like bards and paladins removing silence from their rotation to make sure the damn team doesn't wipe). It's a more teamplay mentality which might not suit your playstyle but that is me. We can agree to disagree on that.

And in an ideal proper T6, there's supposed to be 2 floral or if possible 1 in phase 1, plus another 2 in phase 2. 90s on Spineshatter covers 1st and 4th floral if RNG really shat on you (1/6 chance to the power of 4)

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As for Blighted, yes it does help with TP, however 3-4 Talons (at 130TP each) is a huge 360TP cost (minimum). Sorry to say but yes, that is definitely going to cause TP issues.

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You're forgeting the natural TP regen of 60 every GCD + -. Total cost should be -180 TP for 3 PT. Effectively each invigorate gives you +500 and each HT, ID, TT makes you -10, and PB on -20. In a 7 min long fight as long as you remember to invigorate, PT is not an issue. Blighted effectively gives you a +60-120 TP cause of skipping 1 - 2GCD if you're maximizing DPS during the cast time.

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Once again, the decrease in TP cost is not really to buff DRG's DPS because simply reducing the TP cost wouldn't increase it to any notable amount. You might be able to get a few extra Talons at (120 potency) over an entire fight, that you wouldn't have done otherwise - which will be an increase of 300-500 potency over the course of the entire fight - that is pretty much insignificant.

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My point essentially. It's not going to have a major impact over it so why raise a shit storm here between the both of you previously and now betwen the both of us. I did mention both of you have your valid points, but i question the use of time and effort to keep countering each other. Shrugs.

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If you throw in 130 TP talons in there - yes a DRG most certainly will run out (hence the point of this thread). In its current state - no, DRG doesn't get to the point where they are waiting for TP ticks, as long as they aren't missing combos and don't use one of their skills (point of this post once more).

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First;y, we're not amazons :D And secondly... no you haven't done T8 without Army's Paeon cause you have 2 magic dps with 2 bards alternating Foe Requiem and Mage's Ballad. Case by case basis definitely. Try it on a training dummy, you need about 8-9 minutes before you totally run out of TP without any support much less including PT, which we won't have a chance to use it in T8 anyway, unless you're on mines duty.

BTW i'm also on homing missile duty and I still run out of TP nonetheless.

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Because it doesn't really need it? We already got our damage buff, and it pretty much made it reasonably balanced. Yes MNK is still more effective in every turn of the 2nd coil, if played correctly. However for the most part - DRG's damage is on par (or at least close enough to).

What you mentioned is "working as intended" though.. MNK is sustained damage over a long period, and DRG's damage is primarily spike. Straight zergs where DPS can stay glued to the mob (like T8), MNK will most certainly be top DPS. Fights that involve a heavy amount of disconnects (Let's say, many of the Primal fights with long animations or jumps/dashes) where GL will fall off are a different story.

I don't care for a DRG damage buff. I don't really think it needs it. It did (and it got it) and while it may still be under what it could be - it is pretty much fine for now in comparison to other classes.. If you were to go down that route, I believe that MNK should actually be taken down a notch (Incoming flame from main MNKs). SMN is in that category as well. Although I consider myself a main DRG, I don't really care if their damage is considered "lower" then a certain class, as it just makes me work harder to pull my weight..

This thread isn't about a huge damage buff for DRG, get that out of your head. It is about making a skill that is in our quiver, something that can be used without unbalancing any classes, add a little flavour/playstyle, and reduce the downtime during disconnects.

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Don't get me wrong, the last damage buff cum animation buff was to stop people from throwing away DRG totally, and I appreciate that. That said the current state is still no where near a MNK's damage over time.

I agree with you that MNK is sustained damage over time and DRG is spike damage play, but the maths shows it all. A DRG's dmg will outspike MNK's damage in the first 20 seconds of the fight, falls on par with MNK's damage by 40 seconds, drops way below till 80 seconds later when you're BFB is up, and you pull back to slightly under-par of MNK with your spike damage and continue dropping and repeat till end of the fight. Two ways I can think off to address this in the current preferred rotation is to increase Full Thrust potency or Chaos Thrust potency over time, both meaning a higher spike damage initial, a slower drop off rate of dps.

An ideal situation would be a DRG being able to keep up with MNK by rising above MNK's damage for the first 40 seconds, drop to par at 40s and below MNK's total damage up till 80s where the next spike takes it above MNK again and repeat. We're way off the mark currently.

I'm still a DRG player at heart, my guild mates can vouch for me on that. But sometimes when the DPS is just say 1% short of phasing the third's heaven's fall in T9 given your best efforts, you start to question, would a MNK have done it better.

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Originally Posted by Altena

HUH?! o.o

Errrrrrrrm, if you don't use Skull/Butcher's I have absolutely no idea how you intend to keep hate.

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@ 50 you don't use it at all; you do the Storm's Eye and/or Storm's Path combos. Same hate generation, better side benefits.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Yes. What? Yes. Yes. Kinda, some people like it. Yes. What? Haymaker is another useless one.

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Haymaker is good for BRD as it's much higher potency and lower tp than their normal moves when you happen to get an evade proc.