Lower the TP cost on Piercing Talon

[Altena]

In its current state, Piercing Talon currently has very little use. There are more negatives then positives to PT which start with-
- Interrupt your combo
- Very taxing on TP
- Currently very weak (even weaker then True Thrust).

While the "positive" is that it is a ranged attack, the utility is definitely outweighed in this instance as rarely (if ever) it is not optimal to use it at all.

Ideally the skill would be useful in situations where you have to run away for a brief moment, or stand at a specific point, away from the boss for some kind of mechanic (which is a very frequent case), however due to the weak potency and huge TP cost, it makes it pretty much pointless to use in fights where TP can become a tad tight.

I don't believe this will unbalance DRG's damage as the increase will be very slight (120 potency attack every now and again more then what they could have done), but at least it would create a purpose at endgame other then pulling mobs when solo'ing quests.

Myself, and many other DRG's from 1.0 probably remember how useful throwing spears were in 1.0, (mainly for TP gain) but as a whole, using them was more "fun" then not using them as it let you be a little more creative on your playstyle.

So please bring back the ability to use these low potency, ranged attacks in end game content.

[Drosser]

Not sure if this is the right place for this thread, but I agree. Piercing Talon really leaves a lot to be desired. I don't even have it bound to a key. It needs something...

[Altaeciana]

I disagree in that Piercing Talon needs any change at all. Before we get into the specifics, my DRG is level 50 at i90. I know exactly what you must be referring to and the specifics of it all.

The specifics are as follows: Melee DPS job. Piercing Talon is more utility based than mainstream. Asking to change Piercing Talon is like asking to make jump-based attacks more mainstream. One could argue that the Dragoon is not a Dragoon due to lack of signature presence as a job in whole.

Enhancing an ability like Piercing Talon on DRG in the manner you are suggesting is like suggesting that MNK gets a ranged attack other than Howling Fist. Or rather, to change Howling Fist to have a 1 second cooldown as Piercing Talon does, and to perhaps cost TP.

Bards should have a melee-based attack that can perhaps be utilitarian or not. Take for example World of Warcraft's Hunter class who has Wingclip (slows target movement by a percentage).

But ultimately, you need to remember one thing. Piercing Talon is not a Dragoon ability. It is carried over from being a Lancer. Piercing Talon is a remnant from being a Lancer who may or may not have had better use of it in a advantageous or utilitarian means.

it makes it pretty much pointless to use in fights where TP can become a tad tight.

Don't forget that a lot of seemingly useful abilities are left behind since they are also "pretty much pointless to use" for other classes/jobs. Archer's Quick Nock and Rain of Death, Arcanist's Miasma II, the plethora of abilities that can be interchanged with Pugilist/Monk's attack combos, etc.

[PArcher]

Don't forget that a lot of seemingly useful abilities are left behind since they are also "pretty much pointless to use" for other classes/jobs. Archer's Quick Nock

Except Quick Nock is a BRD's best AoE...they just have to be in range for the cone. Yes, someone did the TP calculations and the lesser TP cost on QN is better than the chance for free RoD on Wide Volley (which never procs anyway).

Most BRD just like to be flashy, but less effective (looks at all the BRD who sing Paeon instead of Foe's when AoEing with a BLM)

[Dwill]

Don't forget that a lot of seemingly useful abilities are left behind since they are also "pretty much pointless to use" for other classes/jobs. Archer's Quick Nock and Rain of Death, Arcanist's Miasma II, the plethora of abilities that can be interchanged with Pugilist/Monk's attack combos, etc.

Quick Knock is Bard's best AoE if they are well positioned and Miasma II is staple in the smn's opening rotation and on anything that has 2 or more targets in its range.

That quote makes your credibility on this topic leave much to be desired.

[PArcher]

Piercing Talon has no use not because it is TP expensive...its a ranged attack on a melee. Our job is to stab things, not throw pointy things at things (that's a BRD's job). Talon is mostly a soloing thing, to grab or claim a mob that's just out of reach. In groups, you'd use it to get one little hit in on a boss to keep DPS from hitting 0 during an AoE (or like on Titan EX, that one bomb pattern that sometimes covers him entirely)

Not every ability needs to have a purpose in ALL content.

If there's a DRG skill to look at, however...its Feign. When is the last time anyone used that waste of TP beyond when you got it and saw it sucked?


One last thing...our rotation is long enough as it is...do we really need to make it longer and more complicated?

[LordLonghammer]

Piercing Talon has no use not because it is TP expensive...its a ranged attack on a melee. Our job is to stab things, not throw pointy things at things (that's a BRD's job). Talon is mostly a soloing thing, to grab or claim a mob that's just out of reach. In groups, you'd use it to get one little hit in on a boss to keep DPS from hitting 0 during an AoE (or like on Titan EX, that one bomb pattern that sometimes covers him entirely)

Not every ability needs to have a purpose in ALL content.

If there's a DRG skill to look at, however...its Feign. When is the last time anyone used that waste of TP beyond when you got it and saw it sucked?


One last thing...our rotation is long enough as it is...do we really need to make it longer and more complicated?

If you're just wanting to hit single bombs in Brayflox with the fast animation Feint is the way to go! lol outside of that its useless

[Altaeciana]

The point of talking about the other classes/jobs "useless" skills is to bring into frame that if changes were made to your one desired skill here for LNC (not DRG), then the devs would have to go around and change everything else. If they did an abilities update, I am sure LNC/DRG would see more than one change (maybe even what some would call detrimental or breaking). As a developer, that's what I would do after having sat down in a conference meeting to address possible changes. I mean, why wait and not change it now? "True Thrust should be granted a flank potency bonus." And make all DRGs into MNKs where they have to dance between flank-rear positions to maximize DPS. Is that what you want?

And this:

Just because DRG is a melee, doesn't mean it can't have a single, weak, circumstantial ranged attack.... It's not like you are going to sit at a distance and spam piercing talon all fight...

That is exactly what your OP post is asking for! In fact, any references to DRG being a melee DPS was not insinuating that it shouldn't have Piercing Talon. One poster even mentioned that it is something you can already do during those mini-downtimes you get from being forced to evade attacks. Your OP post makes it sound like you want to be able to spam it all fight long while Titan does 3x Landslide with a follow up of Weight of the Land.

Likewise, many of the posters have said it is fine as it is, myself included. And lastly, you continue to disregard the fact that it is not a DRG skill, it is a LNC skill. Some skills are given to the classes because they are a prelude to what may come when later changed as a job. Take for example my reference to Archer's Quick Nock. One can say it is a mini-version of the commonly used Wide Volley. And some skills are just there for utilitarian purposes. It is so obvious that mainstream usage was never intended.

If I were part of the developer team, I too would have made Piercing Talon ridiculously costly and "not worth the while except in certain cases." I want DRGs to stand by the enemy, not away from it. If I were a developer...

[Altena]

The point of talking about the other classes/jobs "useless" skills is to bring into frame that if changes were made to your one desired skill here for LNC (not DRG)

You are evidently arguing semantics. At end game (which is what we are talking about here), you would be a fool to choose LNC over DRG. Therefore the adjustment would effect DRG.

, then the devs would have to go around and change everything else.

No, they don't "have" to do anything. Some classes already have "more" useless skills then others. This is not a job vs job war here, which it appears you seem to keep falling back on. Piercing Talon is ONE of the more useless skills in this entire game, with a simple TP adjustment could make it useful. Other skills, on other classes have more issues then simply costing too much TP. Why are you so against adjusting one skill for one class in such a minute way? As an archer main (according to your profile) you are probably one of the classes that has the least amount of "useless" skills. Why are you complaining if DRG were to get a TP reduction on a weak ranged attack? It's not like your life as a BRD will change...

If they did an abilities update, I am sure LNC/DRG would see more than one change (maybe even what some would call detrimental or breaking).

Slight adjustments are made pretty much every major patch. Some slight nerfs, some buffs, that's just the way balancing goes. All I am asking for is a TP reduction on Talon. Not really much to ask for compared to others complaining that BLM damage is too weak.

As a developer, that's what I would do after having sat down in a conference meeting to address possible changes. I mean, why wait and not change it now? "True Thrust should be granted a flank potency bonus." And make all DRGs into MNKs where they have to dance between flank-rear positions to maximize DPS. Is that what you want?

Wot? Please tell me where I said anything about positional requirements, or are you just going off on a random tangent that is completely irrelevent to this discussion. NO I do not want DRG to be like MNK. If I did, why wouldn't I just play MNK as well? Guess what, I already do! Such a shock.

And this:

That is exactly what your OP post is asking for! In fact, any references to DRG being a melee DPS was not insinuating that it shouldn't have Piercing Talon

Ermmmm no lol... If I wanted a full ranged DPS I would play BRD or a caster. (Which I also do for grindy content already). What I am asking for is to reduce the TP cost of a skill that is already in the game, make it worth using so that we can fill the gap during disconnects. Where in my post are you getting the impression that I want to be a DRG that sits at ranged and spams Piercing Talon all day?

One poster even mentioned that it is something you can already do during those mini-downtimes you get from being forced to evade attacks. Your OP post makes it sound like you want to be able to spam it all fight long while Titan does 3x Landslide with a follow up of Weight of the Land.

Then you are evidently reading my OP incorrectly. There is already a disadvantage to using Talon during disconnects and that is it interrupts your combo, on top of that it is extremely weak and has a huge TP cost. In its current state, it is actually an extremely poor choice - to use Talon for any reason aside from solo pulling while questing. Reducing the cost to approximately the same as a combo starter (70-80TP) would at least make it usable.

Likewise, many of the posters have said it is fine as it is, myself included.

There will always be people who disagree. Regardless which side is "right" doesn't really matter. Do the people that say it is "fine as it is" actually use it in a fight? My bets are no. The point of reducing the cost would to make it less useless. It is only ONE of the many useless skills in this game, yet it is one of the easiest skills to adjust to make it useful.

And lastly, you continue to disregard the fact that it is not a DRG skill, it is a LNC skill.

Seriously, who cares where it comes from? Do you see any LNC's at lvl 50 doing coil or even primals? I don't.. In fact do you really ever see a LNC beyond level 30 - if they have unlocked the DRG quest? You can practically disregard classes once you hit 30. Once again, your argument is on semantics and is extremely weak/pointless.

Some skills are given to the classes because they are a prelude to what may come when later changed as a job.

What does this have to do with reducing TP cost of a LNC skill? Reducing the TP cost on a "LNC" skill doesn't affect the lore one bit.. It simply makes a skill once again - more usable.

Take for example my reference to Archer's Quick Nock. One can say it is a mini-version of the commonly used Wide Volley. And some skills are just there for utilitarian purposes. It is so obvious that mainstream usage was never intended.

So you are saying that we have a skill because it's "lore"? That's ridiculous and extremely untrue lol.. Every skill has a purpose. Whether that skill is in its current state, useful or not is beside the point. For a lot of them, simply adjusting them slightly would make them a more usable skill, however what I am requesting with Talon is probably the smallest adjustment the devs could make to a skill.

Even ARC/BRD's AoE skills have their own individual purpose.
Quick Knock has the lowest TP cost, however requires you to be up close, and it is restricted to a cone. The TP cost is lower because the requirements / ease of use is also higher.
Wide Volley being the opposite - 20 more TP hungry, however it's ranged, and is AoE around the target, so easier to hit stuff, and is ranged - so costs more TP.. They are 2 different skills - for 2 different uses. It just so happens that they threw in a random proc chance / chain, so if you wish, you can spam Wide Volley at 160 TP with a random freebee RoD, or you can stick with the lower TP cost and get 0 procs with Quick Knock..
As for Rain of Death, It got nerfed (probably the most likely cause was to make WAR more appealing with Storm's Path. Stacking both RoD & Path would be a tad overpowered), however the concept of an AoE that has a debuff associated with it is quite strong as a utility skill. (Hence why the extra 20 TP cost on Wide Volley)..

However once again, this isn't a job vs job war here.. Lowering the TP cost on Talon has zero effect on any other class in the game.

If I were part of the developer team, I too would have made Piercing Talon ridiculously costly and "not worth the while except in certain cases." I want DRGs to stand by the enemy, not away from it. If I were a developer...

Sorry to say, but you are not part of the dev team, and the engagements (aside from a few specific fights) require melee to detach from the mob from time to time - even Turn 6 is a great example, with the vines/tethers. If you are under the impression that all melee just stand next to the mob and bash it *all the time* then you are gravely mistaken I am afraid.

[Spartan117]

Snip

Sorry to say, but you are not part of the dev team, and the engagements (aside from a few specific fights) require melee to detach from the mob from time to time - even Turn 6 is a great example, with the vines/tethers. If you are under the impression that all melee just stand next to the mob and bash it *all the time* then you are gravely mistaken I am afraid.

I'll address your impression that melee is forced to no being able to stand next to the mob and bash it all the time. The definition between a good melee player and an average melee player is his ability to stick on to the boss as much as possible, minimizing down-time.

No offence both of u, Altena and Altaeciana have valid points but im not too sure whether you understand what makes a good melee dps and what makes a efficient raid.

Let's just use your example of Turn 6. Common mistake of average melee dpsers, not hitting the boss when you don't get vined or floral trapped and tunneling in on getting into the "right position". That's down-time no matter what and does reducing TP of PT help here for inactivity? Answer is no.

Yes getting vines attached to u is annoying. Do you and your raid break the vines fast enough so that you can get back on the boss and minimize downtime and most importantly take minimal damage such that your healer doesn't need to top you up? Does reducing TP of PT here help? Answer still no cause of the instability of firing PT while on the move, making you move back towards the boss and possibly making you walk back into the danger zone while lengthening the time period to break the chains thus taking more damage.

Yes getting floral trapped is annoying, it purposefully makes you stay away from rafflesia. Throwing PTs while waiting for it to go off is cool, you get say 3 to 4 PTs off waiting for the sign to be off you. Here the difference between an average melee and a good melee is that an average melee tries to slowly walk back to rafflesia after the trap sign goes off and a good melee jumps back (shoulder charge low cd, drg 3 jumps to bring u to the boss) after rafflesia does devour. Is the TP cost of 3 to 4 PTs punishing? No because of the other boss mechanic called Blighted Bouquet. It's essentially a 120-180 TP top up thanks to making your character inactive for 2 to 3 ticks. So does reducing TP cost of PT here help? Negligible impact, i rather you increase the damage of PT. DRG's fall off DPS is already disgusting enough compared to any class in the game.

Any good DRG definitely will not run out of TP in any of the fights, with the SOLE exception of Turn 8. You will run out of TP if you are missing your initiation skills (Impulse Drive, Heavy Thrust) because of bad positioning. They made it exceptionally punishing to miss such skills by having these skills cost 10 more TP than ur battle time TP regen. Using Phble, Disembowel and the above 2 skills at the wrong rotations also have the same impact.

Rather than crying foul at the TP cost of PT, which im totally dumbfounded for why people even bothered to argue this, why don't spend more time propositioning higher potency for three-Thrust combo because our DPS drop off after the first 30 seconds of the fight till the 3rd minute of the fight is so bad that we will never ever catch up with monk's DPS in long fights ever, given the same gear set and player proficiency.

Peace.