SMN a use for ifrit...

Hey there, so I'm nearing 50 for my SMN and fully aware now of garuda's contagion benefits. However, I still see a use for Ifrit.

I've been playing around with the rotation of applying my 4 dots, rouse, spur, rs, then contagion and swiftcast summoning ifrit. When there is AOE I raise radiant shield. Once the contagion dots are down, I reapply dots giving me another 18 seconds with Ifrit before Bio is up. I start reapplying my dots, swiftcasting garuda in the Bio cooldown. Once I finish Miasma 2 (all 4 are up), I use contagion again. Thoughts?

Keeping in mind, this is for optimal and extended burn phases.

Radiant shield is not for countering direct attacks imo, its for countering indirect aoe's while fighting near the mob, and it frustrates me when people trash radiant shield. Also, why not have Ifrit up during small trash mobs? The bonus 20 seconds contagion provides won't matter if the mob dies in 15 seconds

This is useful for really short fights because Swiftcasting Summons like that is gonna hit your MP pool extremely hard.

Ifrit has uses on encounters where Contagion is gonna be wasted, (things dying too fast, lots of phase changes, E.G: Last boss of Brayfllox HM) and where movement is minimal.

yeah exactly...it's not useful all the time but there are a reasonable amount of instances that it is. I'm just sick of ilvl 100 players lecturing that I should never use Ifrit and to stick with Garuda all the time. It's lazy. Hell you could try it in t2....maybe it would give that extra push during enrage? People need to ease up on ol' Ifrit

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Originally Posted by kujowaltz

yeah exactly...it's not useful all the time but there are a reasonable amount of instances that it is. I'm just sick of ilvl 100 players lecturing that I should never use Ifrit and to stick with Garuda all the time. It's lazy. Hell you could try it in t2....maybe it would give that extra push during enrage? People need to ease up on ol' Ifrit

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Actually in T2, it'd be more preferrable to use Titan Egi because its the more durable of the 2, and won't drop like a fly 10 seconds into the fight.

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Originally Posted by Danbo05

Actually in T2, it'd be more preferrable to use Titan Egi because its the more durable of the 2, and won't drop like a fly 10 seconds into the fight.

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Mmmmmmmm makes sense....I'm still trying to switch out of my BLM mindframe

I have never been in a situation where even Garuda would get killed during the immense amount of AoE damage that's going. She should last fine as long as the healers are competently spamming their AoE heals to keep everyone alive, Garuda included.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

I have never been in a situation where even Garuda would get killed during the immense amount of AoE damage that's going. She should last fine as long as the healers are competently spamming their AoE heals to keep everyone alive, Garuda included.

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AOE heals won't hit pets, with the exception being Scholars and their personal fairies. Even then, only reason Eos/Selene survive ever survive because they're constantly healing themselves with Embrace. Other than that Ifrit and Garuda gets creamed in T2, due to the fact that they only pop up in their Summoner's party list. Its asking alot out of your healers' mp to spam AOE heals and occasionally healing your pet at the same time.

Garuda should survive easily in T2 if healers are doing their jobs.

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Originally Posted by Danbo05

AOE heals won't hit pets, with the exception being Scholars and their personal fairies. Even then, only reason Eos/Selene survive ever survive because they're constantly healing themselves with Embrace. Other than that Ifrit and Garuda gets creamed in T2, due to the fact that they only pop up in their Summoner's party list. Its asking alot out of your healers' mp to spam AOE heals and occasionally healing your pet at the same time.

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This is definitely not true. All AoE heals hit pets. Spells like Protect on the other hand...

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Originally Posted by Danbo05

AOE heals won't hit pets, with the exception being Scholars and their personal fairies. Even then, only reason Eos/Selene survive ever survive because they're constantly healing themselves with Embrace. Other than that Ifrit and Garuda gets creamed in T2, due to the fact that they only pop up in their Summoner's party list. Its asking alot out of your healers' mp to spam AOE heals and occasionally healing your pet at the same time.

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Incorrect

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Originally Posted by Ardan

This is definitely not true. All AoE heals hit pets. Spells like Protect on the other hand...

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Correct. The summoner can even see the Galvanize Buff from Succor and the Regen from Medica II on Garuda/Ifrit in the party list.

Also if your pet is dying that much in T2, then pop a quick Sustain. The cast time and mp cost is minimal compared to the DPS loss and MP loss of having the resummon it.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

This is useful for really short fights because Swiftcasting Summons like that is gonna hit your MP pool extremely hard.

Ifrit has uses on encounters where Contagion is gonna be wasted, (things dying too fast, lots of phase changes, E.G: Last boss of Brayfllox HM) and where movement is minimal.

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Ifrit has other problems that aren't related to contagion and you'd never notice without a stopwatch. He attacks slower, and of course there's the delay in him moving + the inherent danger from aoe. All part of why he's getting boosted.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Ifrit has other problems that aren't related to contagion and you'd never notice without a stopwatch. He attacks slower, and of course there's the delay in him moving + the inherent danger from aoe. All part of why he's getting boosted.

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That is indeed correct. In minimal movement fights and no Contagion, he still attacks slower due to the 0.5(iirc) hidden gcd timer so it makes him unable to queue a second attack before the first one finishes. If you parse him with Garuda on a dummy while not using Contagion though, you'll see the difference is <1% so having to move between target and Garuda's contagion are really what sets him back.

Also AoE, people forget he has much lower cooldown AoE.

All Garuda has in Windslash and her Enkindle

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Originally Posted by Danbo05

AOE heals won't hit pets, with the exception being Scholars and their personal fairies. Even then, only reason Eos/Selene survive ever survive because they're constantly healing themselves with Embrace. Other than that Ifrit and Garuda gets creamed in T2, due to the fact that they only pop up in their Summoner's party list. Its asking alot out of your healers' mp to spam AOE heals and occasionally healing your pet at the same time.

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As everyone else has said, this isn't true. Not only do AoE heals hit pets, but pets also take less damage from the AoE burst in the first place.

Unless your healers are only using Cure III and your pet is out of range, I don't see how your Egi can die as long as you're alive.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Also AoE, people forget he has much lower cooldown AoE.

All Garuda has in Windslash and her Enkindle

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Any aoe Garuda wins due to contagion+bane.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

That is indeed correct. In minimal movement fights and no Contagion, he still attacks slower due to the 0.5(iirc) hidden gcd timer so it makes him unable to queue a second attack before the first one finishes. If you parse him with Garuda on a dummy while not using Contagion though, you'll see the difference is <1% so having to move between target and Garuda's contagion are really what sets him back.

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A bit poorly worded but that's the figure I heard too. It's not a hidden gcd timer though, it's more like his gcd doesn't start up again till he's done his animation. And yeah it's not the biggest difference, idk about it being under 1% though, adding a half second to a 2.5 second base gcd should be a bit more than that. In any case he doesn't have anything going for him to make any of these detriments worth it.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Any aoe Garuda wins due to contagion+bane.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

A bit poorly worded but that's the figure I heard too. It's not a hidden gcd timer though, it's more like his gcd doesn't start up again till he's done his animation. And yeah it's not the biggest difference, idk about it being under 1% though, adding a half second to a 2.5 second base gcd should be a bit more than that. In any case he doesn't have anything going for him to make any of these detriments worth it.

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I was pretty sure though there were discussion about there being a really low hidden gcd timer before it started. Your explanation makes a more sense though has I just tested it to see and this is actually true. Just letting Ifrit being able to queue up his next Burning Strike would help a bunch.

Also, you must not forget though that Ifrit's Burning Strike has a potency of 120 which accounts for the minute difference here between him and Garuda on the Dummy. And I agree with your last part. The only real place I ever use Ifrit is on the last boss of Brayflox HM and that's pretty much it.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Any aoe Garuda wins due to contagion+bane.



A bit poorly worded but that's the figure I heard too. It's not a hidden gcd timer though, it's more like his gcd doesn't start up again till he's done his animation. And yeah it's not the biggest difference, idk about it being under 1% though, adding a half second to a 2.5 second base gcd should be a bit more than that. In any case he doesn't have anything going for him to make any of these detriments worth it.

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No, thats utterly untrue. Sure if its 4 targets or less, but im hoping if you play the Summoner you already knew that.

Ifirits AoE isnt restrained by a 4 target limit. In large AoE pulls like Brayflox Ifrit will come out ahead of Garuda in the AoE department.

Unless you plan on using Bane 3 times and hoping for a DoT reset.

Its the one thing that Ifrit does better, and im not spouting it out my ass. Garuda is just better in general, but Ifrit does much better in AoE situations that are over our Bane limit- and lets be honest Garuda isnt really doing much in that situation besides adding a contagion which may or may not be needed. AoE pulls tend to be filled with many weak monsters that SHOULD die before our DoTs finish.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

No, thats utterly untrue. Sure if its 4 targets or less, but im hoping if you play the Summoner you already knew that.

Ifirits AoE isnt restrained by a 4 target limit. In large AoE pulls like Brayflox Ifrit will come out ahead of Garuda in the AoE department.

Unless you plan on using Bane 3 times and hoping for a DoT reset.

Its the one thing that Ifrit does better, and im not spouting it out my ass. Garuda is just better in general, but Ifrit does much better in AoE situations that are over our Bane limit- and lets be honest Garuda isnt really doing much in that situation besides adding a contagion which may or may not be needed. AoE pulls tend to be filled with many weak monsters that SHOULD die before our DoTs finish.

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If you Contagion + Bane, after 10 seconds, you can Bane off of the farthest target to have DoTs rolling on 5-7 targets depending on how they are clogged up. Then you can repeat just after.

Continuing on next post.

Both Ifrit's Flaming Crush and Garuda's Aerial Slash have 30 cooldown, the thign is Ifrit's has 15 more potency to it, that's it which totally does not make up for the lack of Contagion during AoE pulls.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

If you Contagion + Bane, after 10 seconds, you can Bane off of the farthest target to have DoTs rolling on 5-7 targets depending on how they are clogged up. Then you can repeat just after.

Continuing on next post.

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Really in 10 seconds in most AoE situations, most things are already half dead. Im not saying Ifrit is the be all end all of AoE, we will never be a BLM but its better then Garuda. Im talking about very niche situations, where most of the time they arent going to bring a SMN at all anyways.

I just want them to get rid of Radiant Shield. Almost no use.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Really in 10 seconds in most AoE situations, most things are already half dead. Im not saying Ifrit is the be all end all of AoE, we will never be a BLM but its better then Garuda. Im talking about very niche situations, where most of the time they arent going to bring a SMN at all anyways.

I just want them to get rid of Radiant Shield. Almost no use.

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I've tried Ifrit in AoE situations and have always had much better results using Garuda. 15 Potency does not make it better once every 30 seconds.

Agreed on Radiant Shield.

Radiant Shield wouldn't suck so hard if you could use it on the main tank.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

Radiant Shield wouldn't suck so hard if you could use it on the main tank.

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or any target other then itself.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Any aoe Garuda wins due to contagion+bane.



A bit poorly worded but that's the figure I heard too. It's not a hidden gcd timer though, it's more like his gcd doesn't start up again till he's done his animation. And yeah it's not the biggest difference, idk about it being under 1% though, adding a half second to a 2.5 second base gcd should be a bit more than that. In any case he doesn't have anything going for him to make any of these detriments worth it.

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This was fixed a while ago. Ifrit's Burning Strike now goes off as soon as the skill is ready, same as Garuda's Wind Blade.

As far as individual pet dps goes, Ifrit now does 12+~ dps more than Garuda (this factors in situations where both equally have and don't have their respective damage enhancing debuffs (Foe/Blunt/Slashing) on the enemy). Naturally, the dps difference will fluctuate on a variety of factors such as the case with debuffs and their upkeep (Blunt/Slashing are usually up a majority of the time, Foe isn't) and whether Ifrit needs to chase anything down.

Oh! Lets not forget people that Ifrit is generally better in PvP!

Yay finally, a decent use >_>

I've found little use for Ifrit other than farming matts, Copperbell HM and CT.
At bosses, you need those extra few precious second that Contagion gives you to maximize your DOTs.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

E.G: Last boss of Brayfllox HM

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DoTs continue to tick after the boss cannot be targeted. The same applies to Ifrit/Titan/Garuda/Leviathan Jumps and Twintania Divebombs.

It's pretty much uncontested that Garuda will output more over a dungeon run compared to Ifrit. That wasn't the OP. My point was that, currently, the community views summons as unchanging, 1-and-done variables where you summon Garuda and leave her up for 40 min - even though there are brief periods during dungeons that arise with reasonable frequency where Ifrit would excel slightly more than Garuda. I'm tired of discussions on who outputs more dps over 40 min. Its like fitting a sin function with a line of 90% it's amplitude and calling it a day....ignoring the little resulting bumps where Ifrit could come out and squeeze some extra juice from the lemon

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

DoTs continue to tick after the boss cannot be targeted. The same applies to Ifrit/Titan/Garuda/Leviathan Jumps and Twintania Divebombs.

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They continue to tick yet inflict no damage. Quite a few times I've seen him with a full row of DoTs go in the last phase with the big bombs, havinga sliver of health and not dying. lThe only boss I've seen being untargetable with DoTs still doing damage was Isgebind from Stone Vigil.

There will always be an egi with the theoretically best DPS over a full dungeon, even after the upcoming rebalance. And I can't help but feel that the community will continue to select it's champion and bitch about how the others suck, when failing to realize that they will never get what they want. What if ramuh-egi has great AOE skills? Will people stop using Garuda if he proves better at AOE dps? Why not dot up and contagion with Garuda and then switch to ramuh?? People don't think that way currently

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Originally Posted by Dwill

They continue to tick yet inflict no damage. Quite a few times I've seen him with a full row of DoTs go in the last phase with the big bombs, havinga sliver of health and not dying. lThe only boss I've seen being untargetable with DoTs still doing damage was Isgebind from Stone Vigil.

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I would imagine bosses in an attack phase that can't be targeted can't be killed, even with DoTs on until a physical or magical attack hits it to finish it off. They can still take damage from DoTs, but they can't die until they reappear on the field. Not a statement of fact, this is just what i think.

I use Ifrit for everything but Ex and Coil.
Honestly, the DPS difference is irrelevant for almost all other content and I like variety.
I think however it's been shown that Ifrit kills trash better than Garuda.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

I would imagine bosses in an attack phase that can't be targeted can't be killed, even with DoTs on until a physical or magical attack hits it to finish it off. They can still take damage from DoTs, but they can't die until they reappear on the field. Not a statement of fact, this is just what i think.

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Makes sense, that's how it worked in WoW with quite a few bosses. Would be neat to test out and see.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

I would imagine bosses in an attack phase that can't be targeted can't be killed, even with DoTs on until a physical or magical attack hits it to finish it off. They can still take damage from DoTs, but they can't die until they reappear on the field. Not a statement of fact, this is just what i think.

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I've had isgebind die a couple seconds after taking off.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

I've had isgebind die a couple seconds after taking off.

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Well there goes that theory haha

I know that the BFHM boss is immune during his untargetable phase. DoTs will stay on but do no damage.

Not sure on any of the primals.

DoTs still do damage during Primals/Twin's off-screen attack phases, an easy way to see this is to focus target them; you'll see their hp & castbar reappear on the screen briefly when they pop up to attack (such as Levi's dive or Twin's Divebombs), at this point you can still see their health bar chipping away.

The only time they do not take damage off-screen is when they warp out to prepare their Astral Flow/Ultimates.

The only way to make all pets used is to give them skills that enhance one another for a couple minutes at a time.

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Originally Posted by Jamez82

The only way to make all pets used is to give them skills that enhance one another for a couple minutes at a time.

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As in Garuda buffing Ifrit's damage after doing x ability ? They would have to drastically reduce the casting time and MP cost else it would be worthless because no one will be hardcasting summons every few minutes for 20-25% of their MP pool each time.

If it's not that, please clarify.