Turn 2 Enrage question

Why do people always abuse this mechanic during Turn 2 of the BCoB? I've been in there, maybe, five or ten times, and every one of those runs does it. It's really annoying when everyone follows the same strategy every single time. If people are relying on this one tactic to defeat a boss, then the people are terrible and don't know how the fight works whatsoever.

Because it's easier and less prone to errors which happen quite a lot in DF. Also because people never learnt it the Rot passing way.

And the best part is, by passing the rot you actually finish the instance faster!! But most people today just like to mash buttons and not think about mechanics even though it takes 5-6 more minutes to do it that way.

But then you have the people who leave the session if there isn't a Bard, or if they don't defeat the ADS on the first go.

There's a risk that if you're in a PUG, you'll be with a bad group. And if you're in a bad group. you'll get multiple wipes and thus will take longer.
Do you really want to risk this, considering there's an easier way to clear the area?

I wouldn't classify it as abuse. It's pretty clear you are meant to survive the initial start of enrage (though likely not the entire thing). Just look at all the other successful enrage mechanics in the game and it seems more deliberate. Also, T4 has a similar "soft" enrage, perhaps it was something they were experimenting with for First Coil?

Passing rot is faster sure, but in DF it is in your best interest to go with the easiest strategy as you don't know what level of communication or skill you're going to get and Echo will not save anyone from a botched rot pass.

Woggers is technically correct, but he left out a critical clause.

Non-enrage will finish the instance faster *IF* no one messes up the rot passing. One wipe and it's pretty much a wash in terms of time. More than that and you've lost time overall and are at risk of outright failure. Assuming flawless execution from a DF team usually isn't a formula for success in this game, so even people who know how to pass rot will usually just enrage to make sure the job gets done.

Unless the devs take steps, I think that rot passing is just going to get rarer and rarer as we go. The set teams that have the execution to make it worth it are all moving on to harder content with better rewards and it's just not worth the headaches for PUGs.

If you're desperate to do a rot passing group, you're probably going to have to PF it.

The Allegan Rot mechanic kills a lot of people especially in the duty finder parties as Lemon mentioned earlier. Since this is easier and more efficient to some degree and somewhat easier to keep people alive people use this tactic. Thus, people stay alive, unless of course you have a bad healer, or you have bad DPS who aren't properly geared for the fight and can't DPS properly. Even then, the Echo buff being implemented allows for this tactic to be executed successfully every time, so people will continue to use it. Fortunately, as others have graciously mentioned, you'd be better off using a PF group to do the ROT mechanic. Personally, I think that it is helpful to know both mechanics, just my opinion and good luck on finding a PF group :)

For some reason people can't handle passing rot. I like the enrage way better get to AOE heal my ass off.

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Originally Posted by My_Wet_Rooster

But then you have the people who leave the session if there isn't a Bard, or if they don't defeat the ADS on the first go.

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You just answered your own damn question. How many times have you done a titan ex where you did everything perfect but the collective group beats it's head against a rock (pun intended) for an extended period of time because a few can't dodge? How about Ifrit ex? Levi Ex? Not that I do T2 anymore, or have ever PUG'd it period, but I do not need one more encounter to do where I am ready to pull my hair out because people can't learn basic fight mechanics....

If you wanna have "fun" doing something the "right" way, go DF/PF a Ex Primal

lol all this "some people can't handle passing rot". They just never learned it that way. + SE have already spoken on this, stating it as legitimate strategy and not "abuse". Kudos to who figured it out, it is indeed DF/pug friendly.

It's pretty clear SE left a silly hole in this boss, and instead of changing it so enrage method isn't possible ( thus admitting their mistake? ) they choose to just let it go, and you should too. SE probably won't ever fix it because it is old and used content.

And come on, people still have to clear t5 to enter 2nd coil...dw about rot lol.

SE said before, some battles are scripted, it's just a matter of knowing which is next, like titan fight. It's always the same.
So the same applies to ads, lot easier for df noobs to make it through.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

lol all this "some people can't handle passing rot". They just never learned it that way.

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Some people literally don't have the attention span to keep up with a debuff, which is why many people still haven't beaten Twintania because they can't buckle down and focus for 10 minutes straight.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

I wouldn't classify it as abuse. It's pretty clear you are meant to survive the initial start of enrage (though likely not the entire thing). Just look at all the other successful enrage mechanics in the game and it seems more deliberate. Also, T4 has a similar "soft" enrage, perhaps it was something they were experimenting with for First Coil?

Passing rot is faster sure, but in DF it is in your best interest to go with the easiest strategy as you don't know what level of communication or skill you're going to get and Echo will not save anyone from a botched rot pass.

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Actually they did say they weren't expecting it, not neccesarily intended though. Though with SE they won't change it even if it wasn't intended, unless it's a clear exploit. So on that, I WOULD call it abuse. You abuse the fact you can heal through a single mechanic, to bypass most if not all of the other mechanics. Abuse fits correctly.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

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Originally Posted by ispano

Actually they did say they weren't expecting it, not necessarily intended though. Though with SE they won't change it even if it wasn't intended, unless it's a clear exploit. So on that, I WOULD call it abuse. You abuse the fact you can heal through a single mechanic, to bypass most if not all of the other mechanics. Abuse fits correctly.

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Well, SE said the same thing about T5 and the "run-the-hill" method for dives. As we can bypass the mechanic by actually getting behind Twintania (which wasn't expected), you actually do not deal with the mechanic (ever tried to do it the regular way ? far more punishing). Yet SE applauded the realization of this instead of removing the hill.

In a general way, SE tries to congratulate thinking out of the box instead of fixing minor things they did not foresee, unless it really breaks the game (like the tree method for AK. At least in T2 enrage, the ADS has ONE attack which can kill you if healers derp)

It is not abuse to take advantage of something using solely what the game gives you naturally. ie, it is not abuse to heal through an enrage (T2), use mechanics in a unique way (having your MT dive into conflags in T5 wasn't intended, but they're fine with that too), or find an alternate method of handling moves (using LOS on T6's Devour instead of hiding in briars, or quadruple stacking Renauds in T7 to make Cursed Voice/Shriek trivial). Full stop. People who claim these are abusive methods are coming from a place of absurdity, and seemingly have nothing to back their arguments beyond some claim to purism that S-E itself actively rejects.

Only abusive actions should be called as such. Height bugging is abusive. Breaking boss AI is abusive. Not doing Rot Passing isn't abusive. Please do not muddy this discussion.

Anyways, as others have mentioned T2 enrage is a method that is relatively foolproof, at the cost of some time (how much is usually gravely exaggerated by people who prefer Rot Passing; the actual different isn't that big). It is one that requires little coordination, making it good for groups who don't know each other beforehand. If you'd like to Rot Pass, join an FC and see if you can convince them to do it with you or something. Nothing is stopping you from finding other people who agree with your sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Well, SE said the same thing about T5 and the "run-the-hill" method for dives. As we can bypass the mechanic by actually getting behind Twintania (which wasn't expected), you actually do not deal with the mechanic (ever tried to do it the regular way ? far more punishing). Yet SE applauded the realization of this instead of removing the hill.

In a general way, SE tries to congratulate thinking out of the box instead of fixing minor things they did not foresee, unless it really breaks the game (like the tree method for AK. At least in T2 enrage, the ADS has ONE attack which can kill you if healers derp)

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Apples and oranges. Dodging divebombs this way, while simpler, is still JUST dodging the divebombs. It doesn't stop twister from happening. It doesn't stop the snakes from spawning. It doesn't stop dreadknights from spawning. It doesn't stop Liquid Hell. It doesn't stop hatch. So while, sure, you can say they're the same thing, they're not.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

It is not abuse to take advantage of something using solely what the game gives you naturally. ie, it is not abuse to heal through an enrage (T2), use mechanics in a unique way (having your MT dive into conflags in T5 wasn't intended, but they're fine with that too), or find an alternate method of handling moves (using LOS on T6's Devour instead of hiding in briars, or quadruple stacking Renauds in T7 to make Cursed Voice/Shriek trivial). Full stop. People who claim these are abusive methods are coming from a place of absurdity, and seemingly have nothing to back their arguments beyond some claim to purism that S-E itself actively rejects.

Only abusive actions should be called as such. Height bugging is abusive. Breaking boss AI is abusive. Not doing Rot Passing isn't abusive. Please do not muddy this discussion.

Anyways, as others have mentioned T2 enrage is a method that is relatively foolproof, at the cost of some time (how much is usually gravely exaggerated by people who prefer Rot Passing; the actual different isn't that big). It is one that requires little coordination, making it good for groups who don't know each other beforehand. If you'd like to Rot Pass, join an FC and see if you can convince them to do it with you or something. Nothing is stopping you from finding other people who agree with your sentiment.

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You abuse enrage to bypass the other mechanics. Plain and simple. It's not an exploit, nor have I ever said it was one. But you're abusing the fact that most or all of ADS' other mechanics stop when enrage hits, to effectively bypass them. Yes, it is abuse. I don't care if other people do it, I won't even bash people for doing it. But it's abuse, for sure.

And that's what it boils down to. The people who use this method don't want it called abuse, when that's actually what it is. Abuse doesn't make it an exploit. Abuse doesn't make it something SE will patch and prevent. It means you're abusing it, period.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Apples and oranges. Dodging divebombs this way, while simpler, is still JUST dodging the divebombs. It doesn't stop twister from happening. It doesn't stop the snakes from spawning. It doesn't stop dreadknights from spawning. It doesn't stop Liquid Hell. It doesn't stop hatch. So while, sure, you can say they're the same thing, they're not.

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For the love of the twelve!! You are so caught up with how people use Enrage to bypass Rot but do you realize that even outside of enrage you can avoid rot by...KILLING THE FREAKING ROT NODE!!

You don't HAVE to pass Rot even if you do it the "legitimate" way. So please, let this stupid debate die already.

EDIT: Btw, you still can't bypass the resistance buffs ADS gets from the other nodes so...yeah, you're not 100% avoiding mechanics. If you give MDEF buff with an all magic group good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

For the love of the twelve!! You are so caught up with how people use Enrage to bypass Rot but do you realize that even outside of enrage you can avoid rot by...KILLING THE FREAKING ROT NODE!!

You don't HAVE to pass Rot even if you do it the "legitimate" way. So please, let this stupid debate die already.

EDIT: Btw, you still can't bypass the resistance buffs ADS gets from the other nodes so...yeah, you're not 100% avoiding mechanics. If you give MDEF buff with an all magic group good luck with that.

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Please point out where I said rot even once in this thread, outside of this post. I haven't. I know you can bypass rot by killing a different node, but guess what? It doesn't disable all his other active mechanics, and actually makes it more annoying since you have to silence more often among other things. I also never said 100%, but it is 100% of the non passive debuffs, ie the things you would have to dodge or deal with in other ways. Like Repelling cannons, Firestream, chain lightning, piercing laser, void zones, ballast, high voltage and debuff stacking. And that's not all they could be either.

If I was to do something like enrage is done on T2, I don't mind you, I would call it what it is, not compare it to something that it's incomparable to in terms of avoiding mechanics. Nor would I say it's not abusing enrage to bypass most of his mechanics, because that's exactly what it is.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

I wouldn't classify it as abuse. It's pretty clear you are meant to survive the initial start of enrage (though likely not the entire thing). Just look at all the other successful enrage mechanics in the game and it seems more deliberate. Also, T4 has a similar "soft" enrage, perhaps it was something they were experimenting with for First Coil?

Passing rot is faster sure, but in DF it is in your best interest to go with the easiest strategy as you don't know what level of communication or skill you're going to get and Echo will not save anyone from a botched rot pass.

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And that's the thing, soft enrages like this are not designed to be healed through to avoid the rest of the fight. SE's mistake wasn't putting the soft enrage in, that's pretty much fine. The problem was disabling all of the other mechanics once it happened. Once the T4 enrage happens, the mobs don't change what they do, they keep on going with whatever abilities they normally use. T2 enrage is the kind of thing that would be fixed in other games. Soft enrages are meant to be a "hurry up, finish soon or wipe" but not so strict as a hard enrage so it gives groups that are slightly slow a time window to finish. But instead people WAIT for enrage, so as to avoid the other mechanics. Abuse, 100%.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Please point out where I said rot even once in this thread, outside of this post. I haven't.

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Ah my bad, I got you mixed up with someone else.

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Originally Posted by ispano

If I was to do something like enrage is done on T2, I don't mind you, I would call it what it is, not compare it to something that it's incomparable to in terms of avoiding mechanics. Nor would I say it's not abusing enrage to bypass most of his mechanics, because that's exactly what it is...

...people WAIT for enrage, so as to avoid the other mechanics. Abuse, 100%.

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That's not abuse. It merely means people figured out a way to solve the puzzle that the designers didn't anticipate. But no one is abusing, or exploiting anything. That's like saying that overgearing content is "abuse". A well-geared party can skip entire phases of a fight or flat out ignore certain mechanics. Is that abuse? Is a Titan Extreme party comprised of 1 healer/1 tank/6 DPS abuse? SE clearly had some amount of leeway in mind in terms of using alternate strategies to beat content. Unexpected =/= exploit or abuse.

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Originally Posted by ispano

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Did you actually read what I wrote or did you stop at "T5 dives are the same" ?

I was merely saying that it was also not intended by the devs. of course it doesn't prevent the other mechanics. Yet it's still the same on the point that it wasn't intended.

I know you don't like the enrage (I don't like it either, especially since laser nerf), but don't throw straw men and read what the posts are about.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

That's not abuse. It merely means people figured out a way to solve the puzzle that the designers didn't anticipate. But no one is abusing, or exploiting anything. That's like saying that overgearing content is "abuse". A well-geared party can skip entire phases of a fight or flat out ignore certain mechanics. Is that abuse? Is a Titan Extreme party comprised of 1 healer/1 tank/6 DPS abuse? SE clearly had some amount of leeway in mind in terms of using alternate strategies to beat content. Unexpected =/= exploit or abuse.

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Think about it for a second. You're thinking abuse in a larger sense, or more akin to an exploit. That's not what i'm saying. Abusing enrage is taking advantage of the fact that it stops all of his other mechanics. Abuse != Exploit. I even SAID this earlier.

Various methods or strats on certain fights might be minor or major in this regard, T2 is major. T4, which uses a similar enrage mechanic, isn't even close to it since it doesn't stop the fight mechanics in the slightest, but adds to them. The T5 pit/divebomb method involves moving to a significant elevation difference before it hits, which to some might be more of a potential "exploit" than Enrage on T2. Except you still have to react and move quickly, otherwise you get hit still. So in severity they are miles apart.

Lastly, the main reason I go on about this in particular, is this. Before I got into my current static, I had to PuG 1-4/5 like many others, ok no problem. I would ALWAYS ask any 1-x or T2 group how they did T2, if they did enrage, I declined and said nothing more. Some of them asked why I wouldn't, I told them I disagreed with the method. Do you know what the most common response was? Things along the lines of telling me to "get off your high horse" and similar. I never pushed the subject or harassed them for using that method, never bashed them or anything. But that's what I got in return for choosing not to. So I refuse to let people say it's not something that it is.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Did you actually read what I wrote or did you stop at "T5 dives are the same" ?

I was merely saying that it was also not intended by the devs. of course it doesn't prevent the other mechanics. Yet it's still the same on the point that it wasn't intended.

I know you don't like the enrage (I don't like it either, especially since laser nerf), but don't throw straw men and read what the posts are about.

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I read every post in a thread I respond to. Also, we have no idea if SE intended some things or not unless they say so directly, although I do agree that they didn't which is one of the reasons I won't do it. There's a difference between not intending something to be done a certain way, and not expecting it to be done a certain way. Lastly, my point was that making a single mechanic easier, be it considered an exploit or not, doesn't hold a candle to something that trivializes an entire encounter.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Think about it for a second. You're thinking abuse in a larger sense, or more akin to an exploit. That's not what i'm saying. Abusing enrage is taking advantage of the fact that it stops all of his other mechanics. Abuse != Exploit. I even SAID this earlier...

...My point was that making a single mechanic easier, be it considered an exploit or not, doesn't hold a candle to something that trivializes an entire encounter.

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Then overgearing content is also an "abuse" in your eyes. There are plenty of dungeons where you can blatantly ignore certain mechanics (or in some cases, not even know they exist) because you vastly overgear it. Then there's the way you can ignore melee mechanics by taking all ranged, and vice versa. I'm not going to tell you to get off your high horse and those players shouldn't care what you want to do, but it's not hard to see that you're turning it down because you think other players are abusing the system. No one wants to be accused of abusing or exploiting game mechanics, especially when there's nothing wrong with enrage and SE has stated that it was unexpected but fine. And you can't bypass ALL the mechanics, only the active ones. You still need to choose the appropriate path to go down to meet your party composition. No fight is 100% bypassable. You can skip certain mechanics or phases but you must still work within certain limitations of the system. If SE truly cared they would have modified it like the Doom mechanic in Qarn.*

*Originally when the Terataur cast Doom it was as an AoE. Pulling him into a corner having everyone else run to the far end of the room meant they could escape the debuff by being out of range. They patched it so it hits everyone now, I believe.

Because its more fun to mash buttons like a bot than actually having to think and cultivate raid awareness.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Then overgearing content is also an "abuse" in your eyes. There are plenty of dungeons where you can blatantly ignore certain mechanics (or in some cases, not even know they exist) because you vastly overgear it. Then there's the way you can ignore melee mechanics by taking all ranged, and vice versa. I'm not going to tell you to get off your high horse and those players shouldn't care what you want to do, but it's not hard to see that you're turning it down because you think other players are abusing the system. No one wants to be accused of abusing or exploiting game mechanics, especially when there's nothing wrong with enrage and SE has stated that it was unexpected but fine. And you can't bypass ALL the mechanics, only the active ones. You still need to choose the appropriate path to go down to meet your party composition. No fight is 100% bypassable. You can skip certain mechanics or phases but you must still work within certain limitations of the system. If SE truly cared they would have modified it like the Doom mechanic in Qarn.*

*Originally when the Terataur cast Doom it was as an AoE. Pulling him into a corner having everyone else run to the far end of the room meant they could escape the debuff by being out of range. They patched it so it hits everyone now, I believe.

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Again, the passive ones mean very little in terms of people having to think, or co-ordinate with the group and such. You don't need to think about you doing less damage due to a magic defense buff on the boss. Active mechanics have a purpose, and bypassing them all defeats the point of the fight. Regardless of what SE has allowed(which is also why I didn't say anything to people who do it) It would have been fixed very quickly if the game was made by another developer. Also, you can still have most of your group bypass Doom. Think how people avoid divebombs on Twin and it's obvious.

T2 is the most extreme case of players not wanting to learn all the mechanics of a fight, and just simply ignore them. Because that's really what it is. I've seen it in other games, but typically those get fixed. Not left in. Yes, not wanting to learn the mechanics. Why? Not because they do enrage because it's easier, but because if you get most of them into a party doing it normally, they won't. I know, i've seen it. They refuse to even try.

@ispano #25
that's not true anymore. with the laser nerf, if you go the fire star way (left one iirc) with full ranged team, enrage and nornal way have zero difference besides the tank swap. people do one turn of rot, stack and eat all the lasers because they don't one shot anymore at ilevel 70. The fight becomes a dummy fight with even less things to care of and a lot less of heal stress, and that after roughly 1 minute.

All in all, being in post nerf era, I'd rather use the enrage. T2's mechanics aren't fun anymore

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

@ispano #25
that's not true anymore. with the laser nerf, if you go the fire star way (left one iirc) with full ranged team, enrage and nornal way have zero difference besides the tank swap. people do one turn of rot, stack and eat all the lasers because they don't one shot anymore at ilevel 70. The fight becomes a dummy fight with even less things to care of and a lot less of heal stress, and that after roughly 1 minute.

All in all, being in post nerf era, I'd rather use the enrage. T2's mechanics aren't fun anymore

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Some people find "breaking" of an encounter to not be fun, regardless of tedium and such. I always try to play to the best of my ability, even when I solo simple mobs out in the overworld. It's far from the best example, but to me it's akin to regularly exercising to stay in shape.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

Because its more fun to mash buttons like a bot than actually having to think and cultivate raid awareness.

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It's more fun to mash buttons like a bot than wiping because you're with scrub pugs. Elite players no longer do T1-4.