Gladiator/Paladin Buff !

Right now it's anoying to keep hate on groups of monsters with just flash. The laughable 100 potency Circle of Scorn isn't contributing to our array of AoE skills for hate keeping in even a minor way.

We could use a good amount of FFXIV 1.0 skills reinstated to us, especially:


Circle Slash - Spin your weapon fiercely, dealing slashing damage to nearby targets.

Luminous Spire - Imbue your blade with brilliance, dealing astral damage and reducing the target's magic defense. Blinds other nearby enemies.


But in other quality-of-life improvements, we need the two above as well as:

Red Lotus - Invoke the power of flame and strike, dealing fire damage.

Howling Vortex - Sound a haunting howl with your weapon, dealing slashing damage and temporarily lengthening the target's cast times.

Spinstroke - Feint and then strike, dealing slashing damage to the target. Increases attack power when the target is not engaging you.

Phalanx - Strike from behind the safety of your shield, dealing slashing damage and increasing enmity. Can only be executed following a block.

Still Precision - Steady yourself, increasing accuracy and reducing evasion.

Deflection - Focus on your shield arm, increasing defense against frontal attacks and negating a portion of blocked damage.

and for completionist sake, Onion Cut - Feign weakness and then attack, dealing slashing damage.

PLD could use something to spice up their rotation, but an equally geared PLD has no trouble keeping hate against equally geared DPS.

1) If you thing CoS is laughable, then you're using it wrong. Last time I checked, it was a 250 potency TP-free GCD-free skill. Which is up for every pack if you go the slow way. (250 as in 100 + 5*30 potency. The DoT does count toward your enmity generation)

2) Level cap raise will happen "sooner than expected" iirc, at least at next expansion, but possibly before. That will be the time for more skills for every classes, and possibly the return of some 1.0 skills ^^
Elemental skills however might never return, as the elemental wheel disappeared.

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Originally Posted by Surian

All these skills would be much needed, especially since Marauder/Warrior already got a HUGE buff in the past and Gladiator/Paladin were left behind quite a bit...

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I must correct you here. MRD/WAR got a buff because they were nowhere near PLD in terms of single target tanking, thus were left behind in 90% of the end-game content in 2.0 due to lack of survivability. PLDs still got a hate generation increase on shield oath to balance AoE hate gen.

Now, both tanks are totally well balanced, and have the same efficiency on everything.

The only difference is that you have to be a good WAR to equal a PLD single tanking, while you have to be a good PLD to equal a WAR AoE tanking

All these skills would be much needed, especially since Marauder/Warrior already got a HUGE buff in the past and Gladiator/Paladin were left behind quite a bit...

Circle Slash would be perfect for AoE attacks to keep hate.
Luminous Spire would be another amazing AoE attack, and if it continues to reduce magic defense...
Red Lotus Blade can make use of that, and deal fire damage on that reduced magic defense.
Howling Vortex could be a nice debuff for us to use, and maybe it can have a bit of range to it?
Spinstroke would be perfect for situations where you're the off-tank and want to deal some damage instead of standing around.
Phalanx can be a nice Enmity Increasing alternative to Shield Swipe.
Still Precision will be great on boss fights where you as the tank cant wear large amounts of Accuracy gear, but still need to hit it.
Deflection and Onion Cut are perhaps two abilities that wont be super needed, but they help.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

1) If you thing CoS is laughable, then you're using it wrong. Last time I checked, it was a 250 potency TP-free GCD-free skill. Which is up for every pack if you go the slow way. (250 as in 100 + 5*30 potency. The DoT does count toward your enmity generation)

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Nope, sorry, it is laughable. The skill itself holds no additional enmity generation, even with Shield Oath up, it generates about as much as one or two regular attacks from a Dragoon. If you have a Black Mage with you, it's entirely pointless.

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2) Level cap raise will happen "sooner than expected" iirc, at least at next expansion, but possibly before. That will be the time for more skills for every classes, and possibly the return of some 1.0 skills ^^
Elemental skills however might never return, as the elemental wheel disappeared.

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It's not so much elemental, it's magic. If one skill reduces magic defense, a skill that deals magic damage can be used on that debuffed monster.

If paladin can keep threat with flash spam in Brayflox Hard from a blm using the transpose flare rotation then they do not need a buff. So... they don't need a buff I guess.

I'm tired of people trying to make all the jobs perform the exact same in every aspect of combat. There is already a huge lack of diversity between players, stop trying to take away job individuality.

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Originally Posted by Surian

Nope, sorry, it is laughable. The skill itself holds no additional enmity generation, even with Shield Oath up, it generates about as much as one or two regular attacks from a Dragoon. If you have a Black Mage with you, it's entirely pointless.

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As it's off-GCD, it's all but pointless. That's 250 free hate potency to multiply by shield oath bonus. Or you could see it as 2 regular attack from a dragoon you don't have to tank, while doing free damage on the mobs. Idk. But if you can't see its use, you're missing a very important skill

I was all with you for giving paladins some more variety and then...

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Originally Posted by Surian

All these skills would be much needed, especially since Marauder/Warrior already got a HUGE buff in the past and Gladiator/Paladin were left behind quite a bit...

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Shut up forever.

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Originally Posted by Surian

Marauder/Warrior already got a HUGE buff in the past and Gladiator/Paladin were left behind quite a bit...

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Warriors were buffed in 2.1 because of how nobody would take a Warrior into Coil. The buffs were necessary so that there'd be a wider spread to tank population. Before 2.1, if you wanted to tank, you would be a Paladin or nobody would take you as a tank - it was that bad. A lot of Warriors who were aspiring to be tank mains were forced to switch to Paladin if they wanted to tank.

Paladins will only behind whenever a large majority of groups decide that 2 Warriors for every end game content (ie. Coil) is the only acceptable way to go.

Have you tried using Fight or Flight and doing aggro maintenance with a few flashes every Rage of Halone combo?

I barely play Paladin and have few to no issues with enmity.

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Originally Posted by Surian

All these skills would be much needed, especially since Marauder/Warrior already got a HUGE buff in the past and Gladiator/Paladin were left behind quite a bit...

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They were brought in line with Paladins because of the game's community. Before the change it was difficult to find a group doing anything as a Warrior. You pretty much had to join an FC if you wanted to get anything done at all.

Complain about a class imbalance when Full Party Dungeon Raid groups are saying "Sorry, Paladins are not very good. We would rather dissolve the group than put in attempts with a Paladin." Do you realize how many groups were doing double Paladin in coil before the Warrior changes were implemented? Because it was a lot.

At least the situation now is that a large amount of groups out there want both tanks.

At the moment, yes, Warriors do have an edge over Paladins and are generally the preferred tank. But in the content that really matters, the difference between the two classes are not as big as someone might try to make them out to be.

I wouldn't be opposed to some pld buffs but, I don't really consider them behind.

I've tanked most everything there is to tank as pld with some exceptions (namely the new coil, but i did tank turn 7 when a tank couldn't make it once), but I have rarely really had any issues with threat.

I agree paladins could use some AoE threat lovin'. I find flash and riot blade combo sufficient even in groups much more geared than my tank usually. With exception being when I'm co-tanking with a warrior, then I can see that their AoE threat is much stronger as the mobs favor sticking to them, despite my best efforts (while i can get many in a large mob, the warrior tends to get the most).

True enough though, spamming flash is kind of boring but... Warriors just spam overpower mostly, while they have some rather nice limited use AoE abilities. Maybe something like that for paladin would be nice, like something with kind of a longer cooldown that got some nice snap AoE threat. Like a Circle of Scorn buff would kind of be nice. Like nerf it's TP free-ness and off GCD-ness but make it a stronger hitting ability or give it a +enmity modifier perhaps?

i'd prefer skills that focus on utility and defense, ie: expand more on the shield usage, cover ability, party buffs..etc. I think it's ok to leave the AoE damage/threat dealing to warriors since that's what they are good at, while pld focus on single target tanking and in the future expand into group buffs/protection. would love to have the ability to cover everyone behind me for aoe damage.

Please bring back Wardrums.

Aoe Provoke, uses TP.

I have no problem keeping hate on large groups with flash. What a lot of people don't seem to know is that one of the factors that effect amount of enmity generated by flash is linked to your weapon. If you are having problems holding hate might look into a weapon upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Rubieus

Please bring back Wardrums.

Aoe Provoke, uses TP.

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And Collision.
Man I miss collision.

And tbh... some people still prefer dual paladins. Because 'lolwartoosquishy,nohallowedground' despite having inner beast for every spike damage... the hallowed ground thing is a fricking crutch for high healing stress moments.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

As it's off-GCD, it's all but pointless. That's 250 free hate potency to multiply by shield oath bonus.

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Well, not really. It's a 30 potency each tick, so for every tick of 30, a DPS can uses one of his WS for much more potency...
But I think PLD can hold hate well, nevertheless :p

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Originally Posted by Surian

Nope, sorry, it is laughable. The skill itself holds no additional enmity generation, even with Shield Oath up, it generates about as much as one or two regular attacks from a Dragoon. If you have a Black Mage with you, it's entirely pointless.

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FoF > CoS > wait 25 > CoS (+15s DoT) = 1040 free enmity potency over it's duration (40s) to all enemies in the area under Shield Oath. Even for single target, that amount of free enmity potency is hardly laughable simply because it's free.
CoS > wait 25 > CoS (+15s DoT) = 800 free enmity potency over it's duration (40s) to all enemies in the area under Shield Oath. Again, that amount of free enmity potency is hardly laughable, even for single target, simply because it's free.
FoF > CoS > wait 25 > CoS > wait 25 > CoS > wait 25 > CoS (+15s DoT) = 1840 free enmity potency over its duration (90s) under Shield Oath. Wait 10s for CoS to come off cooldown, repeat that sequence. That doesn't include the free enmity from Spirits Within.

tl:dr-Free enmity is never laughable.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Well, not really. It's a 30 potency each tick, so for every tick of 30, a DPS can uses one of his WS for much more potency...
But I think PLD can hold hate well, nevertheless :p

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You're forgetting about whatever additional attacks the PLD does within that tick, in addition to that DoT tick. Essentially, the total amount of enmity generated over 25 seconds (CoS cooldown, or about 10 gcds) is what should be calculated. Whatever the PLD does in those 25s should outweigh whatever a DPS does for single target or AoE.

Circle slash would be redundant, circle of scorn does the same thing and is already completely pointless. The major thing paladin does NOT need is more damage moves. What they need is a use for MP other than spamming stoneskin and flash. And an accuracy buff? Nobody would EVER use that. If you aren't at the accuracy cap, you should not be in the fight, period.

Holy Succor

I belive that Red Lotus Blade and Phalanx will going to RDM in future

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Originally Posted by Immut

Circle slash would be redundant, circle of scorn does the same thing and is already completely pointless. The major thing paladin does NOT need is more damage moves. What they need is a use for MP other than spamming stoneskin and flash. And an accuracy buff? Nobody would EVER use that. If you aren't at the accuracy cap, you should not be in the fight, period.

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Circle of Scorn is far from pointless, read th other post to see why. Ilvl 90 PLD/WAR tanked everything upto and including turn 5.

Solution to problem, learn to play a PLD, the Paladins I play with (not including pugs) have no issues with AoE hate.

They were already buffed. If you're having trouble, it's your own fault.

Going to have to agree with the sentiment that Paladin is perfectly fine, as far as threat generation is concerned. Warrior can generate stupid amounts of AoE threat with Overpower, to the point where they can afk for the rest of a fight after laying down half a dozen or so, and that is fine. A Paladin has to work harder for their AoE threat, but first on the threat list is first on the threat list. Doesn't matter if you generated 10,000 or 100,000 enmity, as long as you are the target of the enemies with 100% uptime. I still prefer to use my Paladin over my Warrior on real content. My Warrior is for blazing through 4 man dungeons with my eyes closed.

However, quality of life adjustments would be much appreciated. Only one real combo is rather ridiculous. Paladin can pretty seamlessly stance dance between Sword and Shield Oath, more competently that a Warrior dancing in and out of Defiance at least, yet there is no real DPS combo. The Rage of Halone set can have issues of pulling hate early on in the fight if you are off tanking, because it is also your enmity combo. And even if the piddly two hit Riot Blade combo ends up being more damage per second than the RoH combo, it just doesn't feel satisfying doing even less keystrokes. Append a third hit to the Riot Blade combo, or invent a new combo, and I think that would add a breath of life to the job.

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Originally Posted by Nanaya

Append a third hit to the Riot Blade combo, or invent a new combo, and I think that would add a breath of life to the job.

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Agreed! Been playing PLD and WAR lately, and WAR is way more fun, just because it's not the same skill combo over and over, +wrath stacks are neat too lol.

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Originally Posted by Surian

All these skills would be much needed, especially since Marauder/Warrior already got a HUGE buff in the past and Gladiator/Paladin were left behind quite a bit...

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Please stop playing PLD/GLD and speaking for the majority.

PLD still has the edge in ST tanking where you need readily available CDs to be gradually released. If a Warrior can't sync up IB, which will often require either Berserk, Vengeance, or Infuriate to reach Wrath V in time, it only has one major defensive CD, especially if taking magic damage. I wouldn't be opposed to some buffs, but none of these 1.0 copy-pastes seem like they will fix the qualities in which Paladin might be (slightly) impoverished.

In a way I like that Paladin essentially only has one combo--it keeps things sweetly simple in a way I'd probably hate if I hadn't played Paladin as often as I have--but I would at least like to see Riot Blade be a little more useful, and would more or less like some slightly more active defensive, somewhere between 'Guard' and 'Inner Beast' in terms of cooldown. One simple improvement for Riot Blade would be to have it increase attack power while in Sword Oath, to a maximum bonus damage (equal to some multiple of the mana gained) to be expended with auto-attacks and abilities over roughly 3 GCDs. (The actual speed at which the bonus will be consumed just depends on the potency of the attacks used--a single Spirits Within and Shield Slam [w/e the 210-potency counter was] might use it up instantly). In Shield Oath Riot Blade itself could deal extra damage based on some multiple of damage recently blocked, consuming that bonus damage on its attack. Also, allow Riot Blade criticals do generate 50% more mana as well.

the only thing i would like to see on PLD is some lower TP offtank combo like the mentioned third skill to riot blade
and depending on the future content maybe changing flash to unaspected dmg/physical or something (t4 adds pre-nerf anyone ?)

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Originally Posted by Pooky_Pasha

You're forgetting about whatever additional attacks the PLD does within that tick, in addition to that DoT tick. Essentially, the total amount of enmity generated over 25 seconds (CoS cooldown, or about 10 gcds) is what should be calculated. Whatever the PLD does in those 25s should outweigh whatever a DPS does for single target or AoE.

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Apart from CoS, PLD can only WS one target at a time. Against BLM or BRD, who can deal good damage on several targets, I understand how that could be a problem. Or even compared to a WAR spamming Overpower.

CoS is an awesome skill, but honestly, I tend to usually follow it with a Flash right after it. And precede it with FoF when it's up.

When you take into account Shield Oath multiplier and the fact the DoT is counted in your enmity generated, no, it's far from laughable.

I do miss Holy Succor though. For some reason, to me, a PLD in Final Fantasy needs to have some curing ability. Cure I simply doesn't cut it.