ilvl Requirement "The Broken System"

So we all know how ilvl works

(90+90+90+80+70+50)/6=78

Now lets put it into a bit of perspective

10 Weapon
10 Head
10 Body 90 Neck
10 Hands 90 Ear
90 Waist 90 Wrist
10 Legs 90 Ring1
10 Feet 90 Ring2
Average ilvl 50

This person would be considered geared enough to run hard mode dungons

I swap the Feet or any of the lvl 10 gear above for a ilvl 70 piece you hit ilvl 55
Now you can run The Expert dungeons
Want to do Trial Roulette swap out 2 ilvl 10 pieces for ilvl 70 pieces ilvl 60

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't think that a ring or a neck piece is as important as a weapon, chest or leg piece.
Hell with this system you could be wearing Healing Rings as a Tank just to hit that ilvl requirement. Yea the HP drop would be noticeable but not until you where standing next to that person and could see there HP bar. This would be even less noticeable on a DPS class I/E BLM with Striker Rings.

If you want to keep this rating system it needs to be overhauled. A person of ilvl 92 may be better geared then an ilvl 96 if the person, If they have appropriate gear equipped and there 3 highest ilvl pieces are Weapon, Body and Legs vs the ilvl 96 who's ilvl consist of ilvl 100 or 110 rings that does not even benefit there job. Hell you could join a group PF or DF and then just swap to lower lvl gear once in the instance, the system would not be any wiser.

I don't know about the rest of you but I would not wont to be stuck healing a ilvl 80 Tank that's missing his body piece, or stuck with dps with an ilvl 10 weapon.

I don't think that anyone out there would take advantage of this system but there is a problem with it.

This is a non issue because the almost every player does not try to enter dungeons with level 10 weapons never seen it happen myself. If they are doing something like that its obviously to harass the other players, and they can be vote kicked.

I figure the simple solution would be for them to stop using neck/earrings/rings/bracelets in iLvl calculation.

I made this thread a while ago.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ld-be-weighted

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Originally Posted by Kagoma

10 Weapon
10 Head
10 Body 90 Neck
10 Hands 90 Ear
90 Waist 90 Wrist
10 Legs 90 Ring1
10 Feet 90 Ring2
Average ilvl 50

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Actually this example would be ilvl 46.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

This is a non issue because the almost every player does not try to enter dungeons with level 10 weapons never seen it happen myself. If they are doing something like that its obviously to harass the other players, and they can be vote kicked.

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True, but you can't kick for 5 minuets, And what if it your healer or tank everyone might as well leave at that point, unless you can get a friend to queue up.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

I made this thread a while ago.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ld-be-weighted

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Did not see it I was going to post this in another section but general seemed like a better place.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Actually this example would be ilvl 46.

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Only if the shield slot is relevant 600/12 = 50 600/13 = 46 Because most jobs don't use that slot I just excluded it for simplicity.

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Originally Posted by Kagoma

Only if the shield slot is relevant 600/12 = 50 600/13 = 46 Because most jobs don't use that slot I just excluded it for simplicity.

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For two-handed weapons, shield slot is same as weapon slot.
iLevel is always iLevelTotal / 13.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

This is a non issue because the almost every player does not try to enter dungeons with level 10 weapons never seen it happen myself. If they are doing something like that its obviously to harass the other players, and they can be vote kicked.

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Or they are truly new and don't know better. You can be reported for vote kick abuse. Not having current gear is not on the list for acceptable vote kick use.

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Originally Posted by Limecat

I figure the simple solution would be for them to stop using neck/earrings/rings/bracelets in iLvl calculation.

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They wouldn't necessarily have to be completely excluded. Just make it a weighted average that gives much less weight to the jewelry slots and more to the weapon and main armor pieces.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

For two-handed weapons, shield slot is same as weapon slot.
iLevel is always iLevelTotal / 13.

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Ahh did not know that. When I did testing it was by removing items I don't have any weapons lower then ilvl 80 so I never noticed, B/C you can't remove them ^^.

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Originally Posted by Rhas

Or they are truly new and don't know better. You can be reported for vote kick abuse. Not having current gear is not on the list for acceptable vote kick use.

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If someone came to an instance with level 10 weapon, and level 10 main armor with level 90 other slots to offset that, then it's clear they're trolling. You get weapons at regular intervals from 1 to 30 and AF through job quests. Anything less means they're doing it on purpose.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

This is a non issue because the almost every player does not try to enter dungeons with level 10 weapons never seen it happen myself. If they are doing something like that its obviously to harass the other players, and they can be vote kicked.

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I've actually had this happen a couple of times where someone has an extremely low level weapon in high level content. One time that comes to mind is a Bard with a level 1 weapon doing Chimera and another recently was another Bard using a level 44 aetherial weapon in Titan HM

I was in one CT where a tank was literally ONLY wearing Allagan body/legs the rest was crafter gear - head, gloves, feet, all accessories.
The shield was a vintage 44? I didn't even want to see what sword he was wearing.

We asked him to swap to some real gear. He ignored us, died in like 2 hits repeatedly.
We kicked him, he rejoined, kicked him again, he probably would have rejoined again if another tank hadn't filled his spot.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

They wouldn't necessarily have to be completely excluded. Just make it a weighted average that gives much less weight to the jewelry slots and more to the weapon and main armor pieces.

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This 100%. All body pieces should have a higher weight than jewelery. Weapon should be weighted the highest due to WD being worth so much more than other stats.

Yea I guess some things should be weighed higher. I don't know, it doesn't really bother me though. It's kinda nit picking saying that some crazy situations might happen. IF someone rolled up in expert dungeon in lvl10 weapon he'd just get vote kicked.

Yeah, let us change the entire system because some people can not behave at all... I like the iLvl system, if people want to go out of their way to troll there is nothing SE can do to stop them.

I don't like the ilevel system. It just seems like a way to fake raise character level without actually raising the level cap.

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Originally Posted by kidvideo

I don't like the ilevel system. It just seems like a way to fake raise character level without actually raising the level cap.

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Agreed. FFXI was great no ilvl you knew what was better for your character or at least I would have hoped you did. If they want to implement anything a weekly skill test to test compliance level.

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Originally Posted by Kagoma

Agreed. FFXI was great no ilvl you knew what was better for your character or at least I would have hoped you did. If they want to implement anything a weekly skill test to test compliance level.

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They did implement ilvl in gear eventually. Just not an average that could be used as a benchmark for participating in content.

As an afterthought to the previous thread, a weighting system wouldn't be that hard to figure out. Just add up all the 375's, 495's and 825's going by myth/soldiery gear and make each piece a portion according to that.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

They did implement ilvl in gear eventually. Just not an average that could be used as a benchmark for participating in content.

As an afterthought to the previous thread, a weighting system wouldn't be that hard to figure out. Just add up all the 375's, 495's and 825's going by myth/soldiery gear and make each piece a portion according to that.

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Exactly not all gear was created equally, so why should the points be. The other things that bothers be is the new relic just turning in the atma should not make it ilvl 100. It should stay at 90 and then go to 95 when you get your first book done then jump up to 100 after you get all your books done.

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Originally Posted by Rhas

Or they are truly new and don't know better. You can be reported for vote kick abuse. Not having current gear is not on the list for acceptable vote kick use.

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if someone has i90 gear, there is no way they have i10 weapon. Its only possible if they are trolling

Personally I've had a more real situation happen. As a SMN I've lost gear points changing to more INT focus than my Arcanist MND items.

I don't know why SE wants to let me into higher dungeons as gimp DD, but that is how they designed it. Sadly I'm a good guy so I wear the INT gear on SMN and lose gear score.

I believe it should be calculated this way

weapon: 30% (20%/10% for weapons with shields)
chest: 17%
legs: 17%
feet: 6%
hands: 6%
head: 6%
belt: 3%
neck: 3%
earrings: 3%
wrist: 3%
ring: 3%
ring: 3%

That way all accessories only make up 15% of your total ilevel instead of 41%

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

if someone has i90 gear, there is no way they have i10 weapon. Its only possible if they are trolling

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I used that as more of an extreme case more likely you will see ilvl 42-46 weapons with ilvl 90 gear in your roulette partys. Or what I have seen more recently some one using ilvl 90 gear from other jobs stuff they got from playing there main and said hey I need to hit ilvl req so ill uses this to get in. Or Join any 50 content in crafting gear to spritbind and expect to have your ass carried. You only need ilvl 55 gear in all slots , and 2 random ilvl 90 pieces to hit ilvl 60.

If it does not apply for your job position the ilvl of that piece should be 0.

I don't mind helping those with a low ilvl gear up in 4-8 content, but what I do mind are those who cheat the system.

By the time we get to the end of 4th coil... we'll all still be character level 50, with item level 400. Ridic.

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Originally Posted by Kagoma

Exactly not all gear was created equally, so why should the points be. The other things that bothers be is the new relic just turning in the atma should not make it ilvl 100. It should stay at 90 and then go to 95 when you get your first book done then jump up to 100 after you get all your books done.

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Because item level is not the effective level of the item based on stats. Item level is the thing that determines how much of ANY stat can be on the item. It determines the max quantity of stats, not the other way around. That's why Atma is 100, since the stats will rise as you do the books from what i90 can hold to what i100 can hold.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Because item level is not the effective level of the item based on stats. Item level is the thing that determines how much of ANY stat can be on the item. It determines the max quantity of stats, not the other way around. That's why Atma is 100, since the stats will rise as you do the books from what i90 can hold to what i100 can hold.

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Using that logic all crafted gear needs to be bumped up 10 ilvl's because it can be melded. ilvl 70 would be come ilvl 80 and ilvl 90 would become ilvl 100

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Originally Posted by Zumi

This is a non issue because the almost every player does not try to enter dungeons with level 10 weapons.

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Right or wrong, I USED to wear low level rings, ect to intentionally drop ilvl in roulette to avoid the higher ilvl requirement for harder dungeons, namely pharos Sirius pre-nerf, so I could get the same reward for less hassle with random people that'd always mess those instances up and waste my time.

I will admit, anytime a person can intentionally drop their ilvl to avoid content, that matching system is probably broken. I'm not proud I circumvented these dungeons I hated, but I'd probably do it again in the future if I felt the need. If I can run BF HM, halati HM, or lost city in 20 minutes with a lower ilvl for the same rewards for harder, newer content that takes 45 minutes, I'm sure I'm going to intentionally drop my ilvl to avoid the 45 minute new content. Of course, I change back to my higher ilvl gear once I get inside the instance.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

if someone has i90 gear, there is no way they have i10 weapon. Its only possible if they are trolling

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Like it or not, that is not an acceptable use of vote kick. Not that I agree with that either. Votekicking that guy can possibly get you in trouble with a GM.

Persoanlly, if I need to spiritbond a low piece of gear for certain materia it would probably be a ring.

Let's add a little reality to this perspective:

90 Neck Only available from SECOND Coil. With i90 or higher requirements.
90 Ear-- Only available by defeating Titan EX or from Coil. Both with i70 or higher requirements.
90 Waist-- Craftable. Very expensive. Prohibitively expensive for someone hitting their first lv 50 class.
90 Wrist-- Only available by defeating Ifrit EX or from Coil. Both with i70 or higher requirements.
90 Ring1-- Easiest to earn costs 385 Mythology, very slow to earn unless already doing Hard mode dungeons. One ideal per class type.
90 Ring2--Ideal 2nd ring only available by defeating Garuda EX or from Coil. Both with i70 or higher requirements.

What does this mean?

Only 3 items of your list of i90's can even be cheated on without having ever stepped foot into a hard mode dungeon.

Lets re-tally your numbers then, based on what accessories ARE accessible, under a best-case scenario.

10 Weapon
10 Head
10 Body 70 Neck -crafted via old philo mats x9
10 Hands 70 Ear -crafted via old philo mats x9
90 Waist 70 Wrist -crafted via old philo mats x9
10 Legs 90 Ring1
10 Feet 90 Ring2
Average ilvl 45

So. Too low for HM,CT, Coil. Too low for even WP or AK.

Sure, if you made ALL the other gear i20, you would barely qualify as i50, but would be unable to function.

At any rate, why someone would spend SO much gil on attaining those accessories (as they couldnt realistically be earned by farming) ...without putting any consideration into their core gear, is beyond my comprehension.

...and this silly way of circumventing game mechanics is so unusual that VERY few would even consider it. By then one should at LEAST have the AF sets, which is considered low-end acceptable in lv 50 dungeons.

If I walk into a HM dungeon and see a tank with sub 3000 hp, I will be asking questions, and if unsatisfied, I will leave.

TL; DR ---Players have standards that make your example of cheating the system irrelevant.

It's broken for the following reason.

There's arguably 3 sets of BiS gear yet there's an alienation between the 3. Yet the best form is having a mix and match between the 3 to allocate stats to your choosing playstyle and form.

People associate gear with skill instead of an individual for being an individual unless he becomes a sort of e-celeb. It's easier to stereotype and try and group players into a category to avoid needless attempts.

Regardless it's a pointless system integrated by community players.

I'd rather do myth farms with an ilvl 80 blm that knows what he's doing or is willing to listen than a ilvl110 blm that doesn't and prefers to be stubborn.

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Originally Posted by waldo

-- snip --

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Holy crap I never even thought of this.

I just never unlocked PS till I was *FORCED* to in 2.2 in order to even do that roulette set.

Still I think the bigger problem is SE setting the ilvl requirements for dungeons pathetically low. Borderline impossibly low.

If someone has a level 50 job they can farm myth and kit their alt job out in level 90 accessories (they're cheap) if they want. I don't know why they would do so unless trolling, but there you are.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

It's broken for the following reason.

There's arguably 3 sets of BiS gear yet there's an alienation between the 3. Yet the best form is having a mix and match between the 3 to allocate stats to your choosing playstyle and form.

People associate gear with skill instead of an individual for being an individual unless he becomes a sort of e-celeb. It's easier to stereotype and try and group players into a category to avoid needless attempts.

Regardless it's a pointless system integrated by community players.

I'd rather do myth farms with an ilvl 80 blm that knows what he's doing or is willing to listen than a ilvl110 blm that doesn't and prefers to be stubborn.

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See here's the thing about that. Nobody expects "average ilvl" to become a perfect representation of skill. And I'm not disagreeing with you at all. It's just that I think that, while agreeing completely with what you say, it wouldn't hurt to make the ilvl average a more accurate depiction of a person's relevant stats on their gear. Depicting skill is a lost cause. Depicting the difference between what an i100 body does for someone's potential vs an i100 ring should be doable, and should be done.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

This 100%. All body pieces should have a higher weight than jewelery. Weapon should be weighted the highest due to WD being worth so much more than other stats.

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How I would weight it

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Gear Type        Weighted %
----------------------------
2-hand Weapon:  40%   
1-hand Weapon:  25%
Shield:          15%
Body:            10% 
Legs:            10%
Head:            5%
Hands:          5%
Feet:            5%
Waist:          5%
Earring:        4%
Neck:            4%
Wrists:          4%
Ring:            4%
Ring:            4%
----------------------------
TOTAL:          100%

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

See here's the thing about that. Nobody expects "average ilvl" to become a perfect representation of skill.

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No but a lot of elitist use your ilvl and the kind of gear you use as the stone to establish your skill and others follow because that's what players that are doing "better" than them do.

Not saying this is what happens 100% of the time but it has enough influence to get other players to do the same and twist it even more.

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Originally Posted by necrosis

Holy crap I never even thought of this.

I just never unlocked PS till I was *FORCED* to in 2.2 in order to even do that roulette set.

Still I think the bigger problem is SE setting the ilvl requirements for dungeons pathetically low. Borderline impossibly low.

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Have I opened a can of worms here? Oh noes!!!
PS: I wouldn't fault anyone for doing it.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

It's broken for the following reason....<snip>

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To elaborate on this: ilvl means jack aside from how much stats a piece of gear has. Considering that it's simple to wear something that's horrifically inappropriate to your job, but easily available, to bypass the restriction means the system's broken. Not to mention that it can also give new players some very, very bad ideas.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

No but a lot of elitist use your ilvl and the kind of gear...<snip>

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I remember loathing the ilvl concept when it showed up in whatever addon it was and also being royally irritated with the devs that they made it an obvious part of the game there for the very same elitist mindsets. I have, on several times in various games, out-tanked or out-dps'ed players who's gear is leaps and bounds above my own. Skill trumps gear in many games and is why I've always based my opinion on someone's ability on their actions, not the gear they wear.

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Originally Posted by Rhas

Like it or not, that is not an acceptable use of vote kick. Not that I agree with that either. Votekicking that guy can possibly get you in trouble with a GM.

Persoanlly, if I need to spiritbond a low piece of gear for certain materia it would probably be a ring.

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There's a difference between having a single low piece of gear that doesn't matter terribly much and being decked out in 10-20 ilvl gear with a piece or two high enough to raise the average level. The first case, especially if it doesn't keep the person from doing their job, would be an inappropriate use of vote-kicking. The second case is someone willfully attempting to ruin others' gaming experiences and should not cause issues with GMs. That said, one should be certain to take copious amounts of screenshots to prove your side if needed.

to OP , did you just made up a scenario then bitched about it ?!!!? LOL
I'm not sure if what you want is to block noobs from doing 4 man dungeons or to block trolls from doing 4 man dungeons.