Some contents in 1.23 are better than ARR

1.Side story quests(quantity is much less, but quality is better)

2.AF quest

3.Relic quest

4.Open world gameplay (if you had explored the full map & got the achievement, you know what I mean...)

5.Open world dungeons

6.Open world mobs difficulty

7.Dungeons difficulty and gameplay (Cutter's Cry and Dzemael darkhold in 1.23 were more interesting than ARR)

8.Open world party grinding (in earlier version, not "FIRE" party.I made some friends in these parties, in ARR I made zero friends during FATEs)

9.More variation,not just 5man dungeons & raids (hunting for keystones,Hamlet Defense,Skirmish,Faction leves)

10.You will need to join a party in most content,so you can make a lot of friends.

11.Atmosphere/Immersion (ARR camera zoom is too far. animation simplified too much, less realistic attack sound effect )

12.Quality and not quantity....

1.23 did a lot of things right

My only complaint of 1.23 are the content quantity & the copy & paste maps.

I know 1.23 took 1.5 year to improve
let's see..

Agreed with most of it except hunting keystones to run content - That was pretty annoying IMO. lol, and cant agree on relic quest because I didn't get to do it on 1.0, and I'm not sure if i rather have more sidequests with less meaning or less sidequests with more meaning...

For a story we got the main scenario, I didn't find the sidequests so bad, the ones in 1.0 were also close to these just less in quantity.

Give me 1.23 with mancats, and better UI / party matching, and I'm fine lol oh and less lag because on 1.0 during all of it I had very bad delays like I could cast while moving and get animation locked long time after im done casting lmao

But then again I also liked the stamina bar days that everyone hated so much and the Battle Regimen - I loved that system a lot... What we got instead of it... "Limit Break" which actually is press this win button for some flashy fan service effects... ( - . -

1.X's problem was the copy paste world and massive lack of content overall.

At the end of it.. honestly I can say the content it had is far better then what we have here in almost everyway there was just way way less of it.

Main issues I have with 2.0 are design philosophys which I disagree with, so I do not see it improving much at all. But the bigest things XIV 1.X did right was the story cutscenes, gear progression, relic, and open world content (What was there of it)

like i said before in a dif topic.
seems like 1.23 was trying to get on the right track, but was just too late.
2.0+ generally is better for a lot of ppl, but removed things from the previous.
it was a give and take sort of deal but came out better in the end.
hopefully later, the good things in that version will return. (:

1.23 was YoshiPs attempt to make Tanaka's lemons into lemonade. It was a band aid. I think people who enjoy FFXI prefered 1.23 because it still had a lot of the antiquated concepts left over from Tanaka's design.
I'm happy nothing remained from 1.23. I was too busy fighting the ui instead of enjoying the game.

Rose tinted glasses.

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Originally Posted by WeiShan

1.Side story quests(quantity is much less, but quality is better) Matter of opinion, personally I think the side quests are better now, heck the Hildibrand storyline trumps anything 1.X had to offer alone

2.AF quest They're almost exactly the same just don't inexplicably require a party

3.Relic quest with all the QQ in the forums over it then I'm going to call this "rose tinted"

4.Open world gameplay (if you had explored the full map & got the achievement, you know what I mean...) you mean the all of two open world dungeons that no one ever went in except when the were new? and rediculos corridors and high level mobs that were just annoying than anything else?

5.Open world dungeons yep, The Deepcroft and Shaposhae...ghost towns both

6.Open world mobs difficulty yeah a handful of open world mobs no one ever fought except a few NMs which were mostly solo farmed except the few "HNM' which were only hunted for achievements and then promptly forgotten once primal weapons were added

7.Dungeons difficulty and gameplay (Cutter's Cry and Dzemael darkhold in 1.23 were more interesting than ARR) they were also lvl 50 content at the time, now they're not

8.Open world party grinding (in earlier version, not "FIRE" party.I made some friends in these parties, in ARR I made zero friends during FATEs) running around like a chicken with your head cut off to grab a few mobs then burn them down with AoEs... they were no diffrent from fates, you just stayed in one "camp"

9.More variation,not just 5man dungeons & raids (hunting for keystones,Hamlet Defense,Skirmish,Faction leves) the only use for Hamlet was relic quest and most people hated it, Faction Leves were basically just for gil grinding, and Keystones were annoying. And skirmish, behests and chocobo escorts now form the templates for most FATE types , which for all intents in purposes in 1.X were just proto-fates with a participent cap.

10.You will need to join a party in most content,so you can make a lot of friends. Isoloed most of my jobs to 50 of leves and never joined parties except for primals... sooooo only diffrence for me is PF and DF which has taken most of the FFXI like frustration out of it

11.Atmosphere/Immersion (ARR camera zoom is too far. animation simplified too much, less realistic attack sound effect ) yet another matter of opinion, personally I think ARR is better

12.Quality and not quantity.... 1.X had precious little of both

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but then these are just my opinions...for what that's worth

Not sure if OP is trolling or not...If 1.23 was so 'Great' why did no one play it? Why did they shut it down? If they would've kept with 1.23 it would've been f2p by now. I'll take whatever ARR was to give over that any day.

1.23 made a better coaster for my coffee than ARR for sure.

I'm sure Fred Flintstone thought his car was the best thing ever, too.

I find it hard to believe that anyone enjoys the quests in this game. EPIC QUEST "Throw burning stick at rock". Or my favorite quest from main story line, "Bring final perfume ingredient". I'm sorry lady, I'll killed 3 primals and a primal killer, you get your own crap. The best though was making stew for the Flame soldiers whom I out rank.

The real kicker is the millions of cut scenes I have to skip through. I tried switching to Japanese to see if there would be voices. There are for some, but mainly I just wonder, why? why do I need an epic scene for turning in 3 pugil corpses?

I've played alot of mmos. All the fun content is from other MMOs. Rift had fates. WoW has... All of this. The battle system is cool having to flank and what not as monk.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm mad I can't dye my af. I mean... it's yellow... Why?!

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

but then these are just my opinions...for what that's worth

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My fc & I played 1.23 till the end ,we can't stop playing it,
we played together, we helped each other, had made some new friends too
& it's the reason why we bought ARR.

Then I got ARR.was excited for about 2 month,then feel like I was playing a single player game.
if you don't raid, you are alone. community is worse. more elitist, gearscore lovers,
crafting is useless (that's the main reason why my FC leader quit)

Now I don't log-in often.

My fc leader also quitted (he had 2 legacy accounts)

we agree that ARR is Primal XIV/Dungeon XI/Token XIV/Dutyfinder XIV, not Final Fantasy XIV


That's the difference

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Originally Posted by WeiShan

My fc & I played 1.23 till the end ,we can't stop playing it, have made some friends
& it's the reason why we bought ARR.

Then I got ARR.was excited for about 2 month,then feel like I was playing a single player game.
Now I don't log-in often.

My fc leader also quitted (he had 2 legacy accounts)

we agree that ARR is Primal XIV/Dungeon XI/Token XIV/Dutyfinder XIV, not Final Fantasy XIV


That's the difference

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and in my opinion 1. X is exactly the same as now but 1.x had a crummy UI, and system reqs far outside the realm of reasonable, and only a fraction of the content of 2.0.

I mean, heck, at cap in 1.x what was there to do, farm dark light from cutter's, work on relic which made the atma grind seem forgiving, farm primal drops that were equally annoying due to no need/greed system or just no drop at all. And grind seals and Gil... And that was pretty much it.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

and in my opinion 1. X is exactly the same as now but 1.x had a crummy UI, and system reqs far outside the realm of reasonable, and only a fraction of the content of 2.0.

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Yes 2.0 have better graphic, better UI,
but gameplay is mediocre, just another WOW clone.

The camera control & UI in XI are the worst I've ever seen in 3D mmo,
the gameplay is to die for. met good people, memorable adventures, there are some magic in XI/1.23,& ARR is lacking it

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Originally Posted by WeiShan

Yes 2.0 have better graphic, better UI,
but gameplay is mediocre, just another WOW clone.

The camera control & UI in XI are the worst I've ever seen in 3D mmo,
the gameplay is to die for. met good people, memorable adventures, there are some magic in XI/1.23,& ARR is lacking it

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Ah so the truth comes out, this is just yet another XI 2 request / WoW clone claim that has been dogging XIV since day one of Alpha for even 1.0.

I find it ironic most people that are against ARR and pro pre-2.0 are people that didnt even have their accounts that long and the people against pre-2.0 are 1 year+ veterans.

I havent played pre-ARR but OP can you give actual reasons why you think these contents are good. You just gave a list without giving Thorough explanations whatsoever. I'm actually curious about how the game ran before ARR and some of the things people found better before. Cause right now, looking at the posts it seems people pro-1.23 are just finding ways to bash ARR for being too generic.

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Originally Posted by Seiju

I find it ironic most people that are against ARR and pro pre-2.0 are people that didnt even have their accounts that long and the people against pre-2.0 are 1 year+ veterans.

I havent played pre-ARR but OP can you give actual reasons why you think these contents are good. You just gave a list without giving Thorough explanations whatsoever. I'm actually curious about how the game ran before ARR and some of the things people found better before. Cause right now, looking at the posts it seems people pro-1.23 are just finding ways to bash ARR for being too generic.

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Well the even funnier thing is if you could go back to the 1.0 forums you'll you'll find many of the people complaining about 2.0 were also loudly complaining about everything that was added or changed from 1.18-1.23.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Ah so the truth comes out, this is just yet another XI 2 request / WoW clone claim that has been dogging XIV since day one of Alpha for even 1.0.

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Yes, some players always say "XI XI XI XI",
before you blame them,why don't ask yourself, why they love XI so much?

I mean, the more you play XI/1.23, the more you will love it.
ARR is the opposite

Seiju: this is my alt account ,my main account have all job capped 50, played arr since alpha.

When ARR just launched,A XI player told me this is another WOW clone, I didn't believe him at that time.
Now I know he is right. some XI players are the most experienced MMO players too.


edit 2:I reached my daily post limit. so I will talk here.
to Pandastirfry: You made ​​a mistake,the point of mmorpg is meeting new friends ,play together,
you help others & others help you,have warm memories & memorable adventures.
if you just want some virtual items,DF with random people just for tokens, why play a MMO?

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Originally Posted by WeiShan

Yes, some players always say "XI XI XI XI",
before you blame them,why don't ask yourself, why they love XI so much?

I mean, the more you play XI/1.23, the more you will love it.
ARR is the opposite

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I played XI for 7 years, the day this becomes like XI, a game I quit due to its myriad flaws, is the day I quit XIV too.
Just caught your edit. In my experience XI players are the least experienced MMO players, rarely stepping outside of the dated EQ Clone world of XI, and calling any game that is not a tedious, slow, grindfest a "WoW Clone" wether it's true or not.

All the " bring back XI/1.23 " request just sounds to me like standing on at the dawn of the Iorn age saying "bring back stone tools! They have charm and were harder to make so they were better! Besides iron's just a bronze clone! Lame!"


As to you second edit: I'm sorry but the point of MMO's is to work cooperatively (at times) to overcome challenges designed by the developers in a persistent online "world"... Making "friends" and "wonderful memories" is an added bonus. They are not meant to replace or serve as a surrogate for a social life.

It's not WoW clone until there's Flying mounts. Not to mention WoW doesn't have quests anymore that send you from one town, to another town, and finally back again. They got rid of call them after cataclysm. It would have been better if this game had Get quest at point A, kill crap at point B, turn in all quests from one area at point C. I don't like going back to same place. Most people like the feeling they get knowing they cleared an entire area. Nothing annoys me more than there being no ! left, then I turn in a quest and 3 more pop up. Half of them requiring I teleport to places all the way across the world. Honestly it has to be the dumbest questing system ever.

I didn't play 1.0 or w/e, I played FFonline or 11 or w/e for awhile. Getting classes was super hard. Had to go to Norg for Ninja do that long quest. Dragoon kill the dragon. Pally, something with a cave? In reality though, that game sucked hard. You couldn't kill anything by yourself, I don't even remember seeing a quest because I had to group up at level 10 to kill pugils and avoid elementals.

This game could be awesome if people would stop defending the things that suck about it. In order to make things better you have to say hey, I like this but this sucks. If you don't they are just gonna be like "O not enough ppl complain".

Keep that up and they'll do the same thing as the last final fantasy online.... Stay with a subscription even though it should be F2P and release no content except for chocobo races.

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Originally Posted by HorrorStory

I'm sure Fred Flintstone thought his car was the best thing ever, too.

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lol, good one!

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Originally Posted by WeiShan

5.Open world dungeons

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People only entered them to do leves (in party or solo) or farm some stuff (mostly solo). If there was no leve and nothing to farm in the dungeon then there were no people in the dungeon.
As example Shposhae was a good place to farm red corals. But not good to farm gear, because it gave you only level 15 gear.
The instanced Toto-Rak was more visited, because you could turn the gear from it into GC seals at least.

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Originally Posted by WeiShan

10.You will need to join a party in most content,so you can make a lot of friends.

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This is actually the biggest flaw with old style MMOs and one of the biggest sources of their lack of appeal. Forcing people to form groups makes the time it takes to complete content take a billion jillion times longer. Hence the Duty Finder and Party Finder which make this easier. I'm not saying that this kind of content shouldn't exist. It SHOULD and it DOES in the form of endgame raid and maybe Extreme primals. But, this should not be "most content" because MOST players don't have time for that. It's part of why your beloved 1.x died and deserved to die. If you like that kind of thing XI still exists.

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Originally Posted by Fuddy

This is actually the biggest flaw with old style MMOs and one of the biggest sources of their lack of appeal. Forcing people to form groups makes the time it takes to complete content take a billion jillion times longer. Hence the Duty Finder and Party Finder which make this easier. I'm not saying that this kind of content shouldn't exist. It SHOULD and it DOES in the form of endgame raid and maybe Extreme primals. But, this should not be "most content" because MOST players don't have time for that. It's part of why your beloved 1.x died and deserved to die. If you like that kind of thing XI still exists.

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If people don't have the time to invest in a something, why the hell are they even doing it. I just don't get this way of thinking. This is a genre that has its roots in party play. Its party play that help build and promotes community, it also help police the community to a point. You can't be an ass if there is consequences to your actions, that's why I loved mmos before they started the cross server crap, you could have friends and rivals and jackasses either shaped up or would be blacklisted by the community. Now we have complaints of a 'toxic' community because there is no repercussion to being an ass, because there is a good chance you will never see that person again.

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Originally Posted by Artemed

If people don't have the time to invest in a something, why the hell are they even doing it.

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Time available to invest is all relative to the person playing it. I personally hated 11 because you spent more time looking for parties than actually doing anything.

If you really, truly wanted to have some people to hang out with, you'd find a way to do so. Even before I joined an FC, if people were out doing things at the same time as me, I'd interact with them. We aren't in the same FC. I talk to people in CT runs. If they're on the same server, cool, may be able to group with them later.

Just because you aren't forced to make a party and can do things solo or through DF doesn't mean that there's no interaction. Yes, you have to make an actual effort to do so, that's the difference. If people don't take the opportunities, that's them. Its not going to fall in your lap.

The community is considered toxic for a ton of reasons other than "there aren't any consequences."

And most importantly the battle system was better in 1.23, minus the animation lock of course.

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Originally Posted by WeiShan

8.Open world party grinding (in earlier version, not "FIRE" party.I made some friends in these parties, in ARR I made zero friends during FATEs)

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Given that FATE-ing is basically the same exact thing except you *gasp* actually move around and don't just sit on X beach grinding Y mob, I can't see how this is anything's fault other than your own.

I know I have people on my friends list that were interesting and chatty during FATE groups and I wanted to keep them around to talk to later.

Relatedly I love how everything on your list is either subjective or a worthless anachronism that should have died with Everquest 1.

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Originally Posted by Artemed

If people don't have the time to invest in a something, why the hell are they even doing it. I just don't get this way of thinking.

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Profitable game design (Many would outright say good game design) requires that a game be ACCESSIBLE. The average gamer is no longer a teenager with obscene amounts of free time. Using FFXI as an example I often spent as long just forming a party and doing NOTHING BUT looking for a party as I ended up being able to spend leveling or doing whatever content. Game designers need to think about the player's sense of reward for their investment of time. A game that forces you to form your own parties in large inhospitable worlds certainly offer plenty of immersion. You would probably say a lot more "immersion" than FFXIV currently offers but the problem in this case is that immersion breaks accessibility. The full-time working Mom just isn't going to be able to play the game you wish FFXIV was in any practical way. This person essentially CANNOT play and CANNOT enjoy the game making it inaccessible for him or her. This is why the gameplay you enjoy is enjoying a slow death. Until robots are doing our jobs and the vast majority of us no longer have work or responsibility you wont see a resurgence in that type of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Fuddy

The full-time working Mom just isn't going to be able to play the game you wish FFXIV was in any practical way.

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The full-time working Mom isn't going to be playing XIV anyway, as this game is heavily endgame focused and that requires a time commitment, something casual players like said Mom dread.

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Originally Posted by WeiShan

I want this game to be like FFXI stuff

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1. I don't recall the side quests in 1.0 being any better than the ones in ARR. You're still running around doing menial tasks for people.

2. I'm a bit indifferent towards this, but they made the ARR variant not require so much so it's easier to gear up for post story I think. They want a mix of solo and group content, not everything being forced down your throat to group up for.

3. Hamlet alone is the reason I didn't do the relic quest in 1.0. I loved the concept of gatherers and crafters being able to participate, but the execution of it (using broken equipment to get more battle points, not to mention funneling all items through one person so you could get the highest contribution rank) and the distributing of seals was just retarded.

4. FATEs fill this role, despite whether you like it or not. There were also achievements for clearing the map in ARR; it just didn't require running through level 90 mobs with no point whatsoever.

5. This is maybe the one thing I'll agree upon. I miss areas like Cassieopeia Hollow and I think there should be some areas in the game that don't require going into an instanced area to experience it. On the same hand, it needs to have meaningful content attached with it instead of being a wasteland infested with monsters.

6. The game shifted to most group play being focused towards end-game dungeons, so there's really no point in having anything over level 50 in the open world.

7. To be fair these dungeons were also scaled down to be lower level. The Chimera trial is pretty equivalent in difficulty to what it was in 1.0. These dungeons functioned horribly in 1.0 anyway. It became a case of "you need to have 3 jobs leveled and geared and be able to swap to them on the fly to speed run this in 20 minutes" opposed to actually playing the class you liked, assuming you actually wanted to be able to participate. Also, most people in 1.0 couldn't clear Garuda once the BLM exploit was fixed, so I'd say that fight was plenty difficult.

8. Was replaced with dungeons. The Duty Finder doesn't really help with the social aspect of things but you do have the option of running things with people on your own server.

9. Strongly disagree here, there's way more variations of content in this game than there in 1.0. You just have to look past what you like to see the whole picture. That's a common gripe around these forums: "I have nothing to do." "Have you done...?" "I don't want to do that." People complain there isn't content, but it's just things they choose to ignore.

10. Almost all the content once you hit level 50 requires a group so not sure what the issue is here...? I've made friends with people that I've joined random groups with.

11. PS3 limitations. You're welcome to zoom in your camera to match the distance you want to see, but good luck being effective in end game content when you can't see the whole environment.

12. You're really going to compare a game that had to be scrapped against one that turned SE's financial woes around?

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Originally Posted by Fuddy

Profitable game design (Many would outright say good game design) requires that a game be ACCESSIBLE. The average gamer is no longer a teenager with obscene amounts of free time. Using FFXI as an example I often spent as long just forming a party and doing NOTHING BUT looking for a party as I ended up being able to spend leveling or doing whatever content. Game designers need to think about the player's sense of reward for their investment of time. A game that forces you to form your own parties in large inhospitable worlds certainly offer plenty of immersion. You would probably say a lot more "immersion" than FFXIV currently offers but the problem in this case is that immersion breaks accessibility. The full-time working Mom just isn't going to be able to play the game you wish FFXIV was in any practical way. This person essentially CANNOT play and CANNOT enjoy the game making it inaccessible for him or her. This is why the gameplay you enjoy is enjoying a slow death. Until robots are doing our jobs and the vast majority of us no longer have work or responsibility you wont see a resurgence in that type of gameplay.

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The current form of accessibility is whats currently turning the genre into one homogenized steaming pile. In the effort developers have put into trying to bring people into the genre, some who honestly have no business even playing an mmo, they have alienated and angered the people who have supported them for a long time, and its sad. And while I have no hate for casuals in the sense of people who don't have a lot of time to invest at once, i.e. they can't make a commitment for raiding, I can't stand those that were brought in and now expect everything to be handed to them because they cant invest the time and effort. As for the partying issue, put in the effort to connect with people, make a static or join an FC.The current form of accessibility is whats currently turning the genre into one homogenized steaming pile. In the effort developers have put into trying to bring people into the genre, some who honestly have no business even playing an mmo, they have alienated and angered the people who have supported them for a long time, and its sad. And while I have no hate for casuals in the sense of people who don't have a lot of time to invest at once, i.e. they can't make a commitment for raiding, I can't stand those that were brought in and now expect everything to be handed to them because they cant invest the time and effort. As for the partying issue, put in the effort to connect with people, make a static or join an FC.

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Originally Posted by Artemed

stuff

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Companies have to make a decision, and they want to bring in more money.

Also using gaming (albeit a different genre) as an example, many hardcore fans of fighting games have also made similar complaints. People argue that Guilty Gear was one of the greatest fighting games around and had a very strong fanbase that had some pretty hardcore mechanics. However, it isn't accessible to everyone because of the myriad of things you have to learn, practice, and they aren't explained to you at all. The player base that was good at the game was also very unfriendly to newcomers. The barrier of entry was very steep.

The same company later released a new series of fighter that was far more accessible. Sure, the veterans of their beloved series were taken back by the relative ease of the game and the more lenient learning curve. Many didn't continue with this new series, but most of those who continued playing were happy to have a game that they could actually play with a larger base of players. The community reformed as new members came in and are better off for it. Many actually went back and started playing the previously-inaccessible game, even.

I hated FF11 for what I played of it. I hated it immensely. It was not accessible due to the requirements and time that had to be invested before you could do anything at all. At the time, many classes weren't viable at all in most situations. I hear the story was great. I hear once you got to endgame, it was very entertaining. I wouldn't know because I didn't care to partake in the chore you had to go through to progress on a day-to-day basis. The barrier to entry shouldn't be trying to get people together or not being able to play a class you liked because it was gimped compared to others or the metagame reduced it to one particular niche. The community may have been fantastic, but when everything is just an extreme grindfest, most of the people you're going to encounter are going to be in it for the long haul.

I'm not in love with FF14. However, it is what it is. At least I can actually play and enjoy it. Yes, there are some pretty godawful players. When you have more people, that's just to be expected. Company wants to make a profit, so they're going to appeal to as many people as possible. They can make adjustments, which everyone is going to expect to happen overnight, but thinking they aren't going to try to reign in the casual audience and make things less hardcore when that's what 95% of the gaming industry is doing is just setting yourselves up for disappointment.

I truly did have an interest in many things FF11 did on paper; however, the way it was executed made it inaccessible to me and many others.

I like how you made a thread that you already made a thread about: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...broke-my-heart

Stop complaining and stop seeking attention.

Actually, on further thought, apparently I don't like that you made this thread again.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

The full-time working Mom isn't going to be playing XIV anyway, as this game is heavily endgame focused and that requires a time commitment, something casual players like said Mom dread.

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I'm sure I can find several Moms who will beg to differ. Nice thing about the current setup is that it doesn't actually require that you spend hours playing at a single time. You can actually login and queue for something and make some progress in a few hours and then stop. Sure they might not be at the latest and greatest end game stuff but they can still progress.

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Originally Posted by Artemed

some who honestly have no business even playing an mmo

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This is your problem right here. You think you can decide who should be able to play and who shouldn't. The problem is your attitude. I think some people think playing an MMO is a lifestyle choice :-P People don't expect to be handed stuff. They expect to be able to enjoy themselves.

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Originally Posted by Fuddy

This is your problem right here. You think you can decide who should be able to play and who shouldn't. The problem is your attitude. I think some people think playing an MMO is a lifestyle choice :-P Do you do anything else other than play games?

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The problem is on both sides of the fence.

On one hand, anyone that consider themselves remotely hardcore at any game always tends to place the genre on a pedestal. In this day and age, all of the information is laid out for you to have access to, not just limited to gaming, but life in general. People refuse to take advantage. People will always be terrible at things. MMOs are the same thing. This game is so easy when you look at it objectively that I don't consider anything that has to do with the actual mechanics of the game require any special set of skills that makes it something that only someone with knowledge and experience with MMOs can ever feasibly tackle. MMOs still require the same skills as any other game, plus an awareness of what other people are doing.

On the other side, everyone that's not an MMO player acts like people that are hardcore have no lives. I don't consider myself hardcore by any stretch of the imagination. I don't even like MMOs in most cases. However, I can watch a video, learn a pattern, and observe what other people are doing and not get wiped by Titan a million times. The only thing that I find time consuming by this is that most of the content later is just another facet of MMOs; you have to depend on other people and, just like in real life, they can screw you over repeatedly. People can call people nerds, say they have no lives, wipe groups repeatedly, and then can say that they don't have time to invest in learning a fight. 10 minute video should be all you need to one-shot half these fights, especially for people running around in complete i90s (minus lag checks).

As long as games exist, those two viewpoints are going to exist and the disconnect is going to cause "elitism," fabricated or not.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by LamiaTrucido

I like how you made a thread that you already made a thread about: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...broke-my-heart

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Why do I keep falling victim to rehashed threads? -_-

Gonna counter some of these comments: :p

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Originally Posted by WeiShan

1.Side story quests(quantity is much less, but quality is better) Matter of opinion, personally I think the side quests are better now, heck the Hildibrand storyline trumps anything 1.X had to offer alone
=> Are you going to enjoy main story, or side ones? You have to admit it, ARR main stories are filled with too much Naruto-like fillers. Try watch Naruto anime and you see what I mean. I personally hate the Titan segment of main story the most. God-awful amount of fillers.

2.AF quest They're almost exactly the same just don't inexplicably require a party
=> not same. It wasn't just about needing party or not. 1.0 relic quest plays like dungeon encounters including the final boss. So you do need strategy to win it. But I have to admit that the ARR version are geared toward more depth understanding of your job abilities.

3.Relic quest with all the QQ in the forums over it then I'm going to call this "rose tinted"
=> Relic quest back then are like equivalent of what we have in ARR called Coil of Bahamut. That is the closest term of difficulty since players need mastery of teamworks over existing contents added with ability to super speed run clears. Apparently most players back then kind off hate speed runs, so it was removed in ARR. So far, doing speed run in ARR are more for personal goals.

4.Open world gameplay (if you had explored the full map & got the achievement, you know what I mean...) you mean the all of two open world dungeons that no one ever went in except when the were new? and rediculos corridors and high level mobs that were just annoying than anything else?
=> I guess you don't like tense, dangers, and perils having to sneak through dangerous mobs.

5.Open world dungeons yep, The Deepcroft and Shaposhae...ghost towns both
=> gotta admit that they're kinda not popular, except for 1st time spelunking.

6.Open world mobs difficulty yeah a handful of open world mobs no one ever fought except a few NMs which were mostly solo farmed except the few "HNM' which were only hunted for achievements and then promptly forgotten once primal weapons were added
=> are you sure they are "only forgotten"? Mats dropped from HNM are highly sought for making great gears/weapons. Dodore skin from Dodore HNM are amongst the highest demand.

7.Dungeons difficulty and gameplay (Cutter's Cry and Dzemael darkhold in 1.23 were more interesting than ARR) they were also lvl 50 content at the time, now they're not
=> Actually for this, I have to agree that ARR delivers way more content than 1.0.

8.Open world party grinding (in earlier version, not "FIRE" party.I made some friends in these parties, in ARR I made zero friends during FATEs) running around like a chicken with your head cut off to grab a few mobs then burn them down with AoEs... they were no diffrent from fates, you just stayed in one "camp"
=> OP was talking about communication, not how you play your games. And yes, if you play 1.0 back then, or at least play XI, you would understand that having connected with your team mates, even if only temporarily, are far more enjoyable. FATEs? nada! You just go in there, kill stuff, and done. At least 1.0 party needs strategy for grinding mobs.

9.More variation,not just 5man dungeons & raids (hunting for keystones,Hamlet Defense,Skirmish,Faction leves) the only use for Hamlet was relic quest and most people hated it, Faction Leves were basically just for gil grinding, and Keystones were annoying. And skirmish, behests and chocobo escorts now form the templates for most FATE types , which for all intents in purposes in 1.X were just proto-fates with a participent cap.
=> Wrong. For hamlet, the gears you get there are next to best you can get to do high level contents. Unless you are masters of speed running (or even super speed run) Cutter's Cry & Aurum Vale to get Darklight gears (the best 1.0 gears), even the drops from speed running has quite low chance. Doing the normal run will make the drop chance even worse, next to abysmal.

10.You will need to join a party in most content,so you can make a lot of friends. Isoloed most of my jobs to 50 of leves and never joined parties except for primals... sooooo only diffrence for me is PF and DF which has taken most of the FFXI like frustration out of it
=> Tried soloing, then realize how boring that was. Once people hit level 20-25, they start shouting/looking for xp party. Once they formed and started, grinding xp becomes more enjoyable. Playing solo? Maybe you mistaken this for offline games? :p

11.Atmosphere/Immersion (ARR camera zoom is too far. animation simplified too much, less realistic attack sound effect ) yet another matter of opinion, personally I think ARR is better
=> think if you have read forum alot more, you will see legacy players complained about how "flat" ARR designs are. Body arts has been simplified much in favors of PS3 capabilities. Animations also got sacrificed. Take BRD for example. If you played 1.0, you will see some of bard's movement are more alive.

12.Quality and not quantity.... 1.X had precious little of both
=> really? There's an old 1.0 benchmark containing opening scene of Limsa Lominsa that you can still download and install. Compare that with ARR opening. Even with the legacy bonus cutscene, it doesn't hold justice to the great amount of storytelling quality that the old 1.0 has.

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Originally Posted by i2agnarok

The problem is on both sides of the fence.

On one hand, anyone that consider themselves remotely hardcore at any game always tends to place the genre on a pedestal. In this day and age, all of the information is laid out for you to have access to, not just limited to gaming, but life in general. People refuse to take advantage. People will always be terrible at things. MMOs are the same thing. This game is so easy when you look at it objectively that I don't consider anything that has to do with the actual mechanics of the game require any special set of skills that makes it something that only someone with knowledge and experience with MMOs can ever feasibly tackle. MMOs still require the same skills as any other game, plus an awareness of what other people are doing.

On the other side, everyone that's not an MMO player acts like people that are hardcore have no lives. I don't consider myself hardcore by any stretch of the imagination. I don't even like MMOs in most cases. However, I can watch a video, learn a pattern, and observe what other people are doing and not get wiped by Titan a million times. The only thing that I find time consuming by this is that most of the content later is just another facet of MMOs; you have to depend on other people and, just like in real life, they can screw you over repeatedly. People can call people nerds, say they have no lives, wipe groups repeatedly, and then can say that they don't have time to invest in learning a fight. 10 minute video should be all you need to one-shot half these fights, especially for people running around in complete i90s (minus lag checks).

As long as games exist, those two viewpoints are going to exist and the disconnect is going to cause "elitism," fabricated or not.

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Why do I keep falling victim to rehashed threads? -_-

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This sums up my thoughts exactly. I don't cater to the hardcore/casual crap. There can be people who spend a ton of time in the game and they can be completely useless in a group setting just as there is a person who only logs for a couple hours a week, but are completely awesome and are a boon for anyone that groups with them. Personally I'd rather group people as competent or incompetent, even though that itself is an assholish way to look at things, but when I want to do something in the game, I want to get it done with as little stress as possible, I get enough of that crap irl. As for the people who are bad and make no efforts to improve themselves or willing to recognize their own shortcomings? I don't want them in my groups, and while the majority of this game is by no means 'hard' (certain fights withstanding, I'm looking at you Titan...) I don't want to waste time having to babysitting someone who should be able to handle themselves and are willing to improvise in a pinch.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

Gonna counter some of these comments: :p

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2.AF quest They're almost exactly the same just don't inexplicably require a party
=> not same. It wasn't just about needing party or not. 1.0 relic quest plays like dungeon encounters including the final boss. So you do need strategy to win it. But I have to admit that the ARR version are geared toward more depth understanding of your job abilities.

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What final boss?
Aurun Vale - the chests were in the first fruit room, still near the dungeon entrace
Cutters Cry - shortly before the Mistress (first midboss)
Dzemael - Behind the ogre (midboss)

There was no final boss in dungeons you needed to kill for AF gear.

[QUOTE=Artemed;2049622]If people don't have the time to invest in a something, why the hell are they even doing it. I just don't get this way of thinking. This is a genre that has its roots in party play. Its party play that help build and promotes community, it also help police the community to a point. You can't be an ass if there is consequences to your actions, that's why I loved mmos before they started the cross server crap,

Because anti-social people play MMOs because it is sooo easy to hide behind that mmo toon anonimity, his comment about forcing people to form groups falls flat because DF/PF does the very same thing anyway, the downfall of this system as opposed to xis is that you at least had the opportunity to get to know and weed **holes out of your "groups", not just get thrown together in a good guy/**hole salad.

If you could do "everything" in this game in pre-mades yea, but that isn't the case.

They (SE) need to patch an option for allowing same server grouping only, I don't consider PF the answer.

I was actually not surprised by this system, SWTOR had something very similar.

Pvp only games do this as well, WOTs and WOWPs comes to mind immediately, if people think this community is toxic, those people are far worse.

I do not like playing with people tossed together cross server.

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Originally Posted by Felis

What final boss?
Aurun Vale - the chests were in the first fruit room, still near the dungeon entrace
Cutters Cry - shortly before the Mistress (first midboss)
Dzemael - Behind the ogre (midboss)

There was no final boss in dungeons you needed to kill for AF gear.

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It's the AF final bosses, duh...

BLM - That boss has groups of lanterns that frequently pops after 1 minute being killed. Need bunch of BLM blizzard 2 AOE the second they pop, because if they didn't killed same time, they will immediatedly repop, which led to wipe.
PLD - Ogre & Ahriman. Need to kite one of em around.
WAR - kill birds while kiting Gorge away since he has very devastating aoe hit, 1-hit kill most of time too.
BRD - killing Ixals in certain order before hitting the main guy.
DRG - kill drake while other tank kite drg away.
MNK - killing soldier in order before getting to final guy.
WHM - the weakest fight. Only need to kill elementals in order. Can even be done with 2-3 ppl.

While majority of fights follow similar pattern, it was quite challenging for some of 1st timers.