Honest concern about the place of RNG in new coil progression

First of all, let me state that i am literally thrilled by most of what have been anounced for 2.2. I love the game and want it to succeed as much as possible.


That being said, and given the information we have, i am extremely concerned regarding the progression of the second coil of bahamuth. I am glad to see that coil gear will now be a tier above tome gear, as i find it silly that people that would never have stepped inside coil could get full i90 just spamming easymode WP week after week. However, most of us have been witnessed that with 2 chests per turn, the RNG to actually obtain gear in coil is quite insane. In the course of 3 months, it is quite possible for tanks to share a total of 3 pieces, and for healers to share 11 (or any other way around, just an example).

With the lockout on soldiery tomes, we will take about 14 weeks of 450/450 tomes to farm enough to get a full soldiery set (assuming 900 tomes are needed for zodiac weapons as it was in the past). Assuming, again, that T9 is balanced as was twintania, gear wise, it means you will need an ilvl of 103 to 104 before you can manage to take it down (blue garter killed TT with an average of 83 to 84).

If no system is in place to counterbalance RNG in coil (which was the point of mythology being i90, despite the other flaws of the system), it means that luck will play a fundamental role in the progression of each group. If you get equilibrate drops that are always relevant (no second brd pants when you only have one brd) and that do not overlap with the soldiery you bought (because if you buy soldiery body a week and the allagan body drop next week you basically wasted 900 tomes compared to someone that had bought the pant instead), you will be able to progress much faster than a group struck by a string of bad luck. It would be totally possible for one group to be ilvl 103 average after 6 or 7 weeks for one team, and to have to wait 12 or 13 for another.

I would be really sad if there was no countermeasure in place to balance out the RNG of coil. It has already been stated that we have lockout so we don't have to deal with low % chance of getting gear. I have no problem with either system, truth be told. But having both lockout in place preventing you to farm gear, and RNG dictating arbitrary how much time you must repeat content before getting an upgrade, is going to make for a very, very frustrating system.

Since the tome gear is going to be inferior with allagan from the get go, the moment the allagan piece drops for the slot you already tomed, that tome piece would likely become useless immediately. 1-2 weeks's allowance down the drain and it would really hurt really bad if you happen to get both on the same week or even the week after.

If someone's really stingy with this kind of thing, would they pour their soldiery tomes into their secondary class instead of primary yet again? Yet another thing that becomes 'gearing up for alts'? Though I imagine tanks might get pressured into pouring their tomes into their tank gear. This likely won't affect me for a while yet but can't we at least have a 1 tome gear full refund a week feature for at least?

theres a guy in my FC that just got his first DRG coil piece yesterday after 6 months.....

so yeah. thats the RNG i assume you're talking about lol.

Yeah, i'm a bit scared of this myself :X

Have seen mostly MNK and DRG for our static, at least our DRG was happy/lucky. We don't have a MNK. Have never seen the casting pants, and it has been a long hard slog for our healers and tanks.

i'm as worried.

guess i'm going to wait a little for people to get a loot table organized before i decide on what i buy with tomes.

It's come up a few times already since the live letter/patch notes, so you're not alone on this one. Unfortunately, this is probably the sort of decision that was made behind closed doors weeks or months ago, with no player feedback, so whatever they're going with - even if it turns out to be an absolute disaster - is probably just going to happen, and doesn't stand much chance of being changed or fixed for another 1-3 months.

Assuming there aren't any mitigating systems in place that we haven't been told about, and 2.2 will work exactly the way the game would now if Myth gear were i80 instead of i90, then it's going to be a really bad system by almost any measure; it's almost not worth going into exactly why it's bad, because the reasons are so myriad that you'd have to go on for pages to really articulate it. The idea of it alone is pretty demotivational, and at this point I think I'd genuinely be happier if they said that they were delaying the patch to put 2.2 back in the oven for a month. It's really either deal with it or leave, though; there's no direct or speedy line of communication between us and the development team, so there's not really much to be done.

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Originally Posted by Kaaylryn

Have seen mostly MNK and DRG for our static, at least our DRG was happy/lucky. We don't have a MNK. Have never seen the casting pants, and it has been a long hard slog for our healers and tanks.

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This^^ My group has been clearing coil 1-4 since mid-November, and the casting pants have not dropped once. Neither has the caster body. Meanwhile, everyone else in the static has a second job at full i90 (including my 2nd job), but my main is still wearing CT pants and inferior i90 because SE can't balance loot tables.

Good post OP. I have discussed this with some FC people myself. I really hope SE has thought ahead on this one.. some form of token system only from Coil 6-9 that would lower the RNG factor would be the best route IMO. Either everyone slowly getting them from each boss that drops, or some form of guaranteed token drop (chest/legs/feet/hands/head) that is redeemable for the 110 equivalent, one per boss, along with another accessory drop or something.

RNG only is just a bad way of doing loot when we are talking lockouts. I got an Allagan Axe before I got the tank belt from T2 (still using myth).

Another idea: You have access to a vendor that lets you trade 1 for 2 gear. Most likely you would get another currency, "allagan trade currency (ATC)". You could exchange any piece of allagan for half the price of a piece of gear in ACT. So for example, if bodies are 875 ACT, you could exchange a body for 438 ACT. Now when a piece of gear drop, if nobody can equip it on its main, everybody greed (or you use a DKP system or something), and the one getting it has the equivalent of half a piece of gear. It also makes sense in the lore: those rare artefacts can't be made outside of coil... But a savy vendor could make a system like this in place to allow adventurers to make trades, and the vendor acting as a middle man.

this part of the issue with only being able to run a piece of content once a week. i've been running and clearing turns 1-5 for months now, but haven't gotten my full set for my main yet. i would rather run something 434653754 times a week and have something to do each day over running it once just to get the same bad luck on drops and only be able to run the content one day and then sign out the next 6.

What concerns me is the distribution of loot.
I mean DRG can get their Chest piece AND legs in t1 , WTF?

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

What concerns me is the distribution of loot.
I mean DRG can get their Chest piece AND legs in t1 , WTF?

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how do you think it is for a blm when you get belt, legs, and earrings in t4? have legs, missed a lot on belt a few times, and have never seen the earrings drop and been clearing since november.

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Originally Posted by Traek

excellent ideas

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Well, interestingly enough, I thought of almost the exact same thing when chatting with my FC, except with a twist.

I think that coil should be without lockouts. You can DO coil as much as you want, but you only get one of those tokens once a week. To provide motivation for doing coil outside your static, accessories (rings, necklaces, bracelets, earrings) are the only thing subjected to RNG.

T6 you get a token for gloves with a chance to drop tank/healer/melee/caster ring
T7 you get a token for feet with a chance to drop tank/healer/melee/caster necklace (once you already have that token, the next time you clear it the week later, you get a belt token)
T8 you get a token for Legs with a chance to drop tank/healer/melee/caster earrings (once you already have that token, you would get a token for body the next clear the next week)
T9 you get a token for head with a chance to drop tank/healer/melee/caster bracelet (weapon drops are RNG)

This way there is a little bit of everything: RNG, tokens, guarantees, longevity, lockouts, reasons to do it more than once a week.

just my .02

Yup, I've brought this up before as well. I strongly disagree with SE's decision regarding Soldier gear's ilvl. There's a reason certain MMOs that have a combination of token systems and loot drops don't distinguish between them in ilvl - because the token gear is supposed to do two, very important things: 1) offer alternative stat paths to gearing and 2) provide relief from really bad RNG.

This is a very bad move on SE's part.

in addition, you can plan to spend soldiery tomes accordingly

I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU MEAN BEEN DOING COIL JUST AS LONG NEVER SEEN THEM DAMN CASTING PAAAANNNTTSS

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Originally Posted by Siobahn

This^^ My group has been clearing coil 1-4 since mid-November, and the casting pants have not dropped once. Neither has the caster body. Meanwhile, everyone else in the static has a second job at full i90 (including my 2nd job), but my main is still wearing CT pants and inferior i90 because SE can't balance loot tables.

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This is funny b/c Im in the same position lol. I have seen the pants drop once (lost to someone else in my current static who already had i90 pants ._.) and ive never seen cast chest..at all. every time i hear people on my server say they've seen it 3 or 4 times im like "....>_>". But i got my mnk to i90 this week while my BLM stuck with CT and af+1 body. But oh well i guess; What can you do at the end of the day? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Just gonna paste this from the tank forums...

I believe the motivation behind making Coil gear a potentially, since we dont know just yet, higher level than tome gear was to give people a reason to do coil, instead of just hacking away at tomes.
With that in mind, a good compromise would be to have an autolooted item drop from every boss, which is a secondary token of sorts, but ONLY available in coil.
Then, lets have these coil only items act as crafting components for Master Crafting Recipes, which are then used to upgrade tome gear.
So beat the Turn 6 boss, get say 1 token... As in everyone in the group automatically gets the token the moment the boss is killed. Turn 7, 2 tokens... Something to make beating harder content more enticing. This way you have a steady progression into I100 AND I110 gear... Of course a Coil drop just lets you skip the whole process.

Implementation wise, when you asked Gerolt to forge your relic, he told you to get the base for him... He "can" do it himself... but he's not gonna wipe your ass for ya too...
Same thing here. You give him tomes, he makes your base armor. If you want to make it better, then give him reinforcing components to add to it... but you have to get them yourself.
So go to Coil, kill bosses, get your autolooted item. Then take it to the appropriate master crafter, get the component made, and have Gerolt reinforce your gear, bringing it to I110.

... Maybe bring him some booze for extra motivation...

we've never seen tank neck or MNK hands. I'm sure there are others but those two stand out. Especially the tank neck since a lot of people wanted it.

Depends on what the new BiS stats are going to be for every class/job. Currently, BiS for PLD is the full valor set and the Allaghan blade, accessories, and helm.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

This is a very bad move on SE's part.

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Yoshida: Strictly speaking, the item level is different. This is because the soldiery equipment is obtained from a simple exchange, but there's a bit of a gimmick for the Binding Coil equipment, so they aren't equal. For A Realm Reborn, there are items that are obtained as direct drops and those that are obtained over time, but we also want to have items which can be developed over a long period of time for those who have more time to play.

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Everyone needs to wait and see how coil gear works before passing judgment. People are assuming drops from coil will work exactly the same as 2.0, which Yoshi has already said isn't the case and to "try it out for yourselves".

That quote doesn't say anything about easing RNG drops; in fact, he outright says Coil drops and Soldier equipment aren't equal. His second sentence is more a comment on the gearing system of the whole game beyond just Coil (hence the "For A Realm Reborn"). I think you're reading too much into that quote.

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Originally Posted by AdamuKun322

Depends on what the new BiS stats are going to be for every class/job. Currently, BiS for PLD is the full valor set and the Allaghan blade, accessories, and helm.

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There has to be a lot of a secondary stat in order for it to be better than 10 ilvls worth of more primary stat. And even then...

Just saw our first pair of tank gloves drop last night after 6 months of raiding. Yeah, I'm concerned.

This is why I prefer the way CT does loot, I am hoping they are using that system instead.

But SE ... so probably not.

Part of the problem also lies in how the sets are designed. Monk for example doesn't share a set with any other class unlike tanking/healing/nuking sets. Why screw melee and ranged DPS over on gear allocation?

RNG only works if the content has no lockouts.
Lockouts only work if the content is not RNG.

Having both together was an extremely poor design that we saw in 2.0. The only excuse for such a punishing system, was that it was alleviated somewhat with tomes (still punishing though, as tomes themselves had a cap and thus, someone who got 3 drops a week in coil would still make it impossible for someone resorting to myth to catch up).

If SE fails to address this, there will be a lot of lost subscriptions.

Good post OP I agree 100%.
Have been the only DRG in my coil group since day one, my group has only been a week or 2 behind the first clears and I have never seen the DRG legs or feet drop. Having the highest iLVL from coil is a step in the right direction but it should definitely not be RNG based as much as it is now. If we could have a token system on top of the RNG drops where 10 clears of a specific turn could let you have one piece from that turn it would alleviate the issue and still keep shiny gear rare.

Since itemization is poorly done for most allagan gear, favoring WHM over Sch, BLM over SMN, it makes me wonder which class will suffer unless they do some retuning where spell speed is a better/needed stat for all. I know tanks and other dps may be likewise effected like parry or skill speed. What about accuracy requirements?

At least with the Myth items, SCH and SMN could improve the stats needed for their class/job as I am sure is the case for other classes as well. RNG not withstanding, stat allocations will come heavily into play here.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Everyone needs to wait and see how coil gear works before passing judgment. People are assuming drops from coil will work exactly the same as 2.0, which Yoshi has already said isn't the case and to "try it out for yourselves".

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Agreed, I think everyone is worried because of how bad 1-5 worked when it came to loot distribution. Unless you're one of the lucky SOBs that got everything you wanted. Quite a few of us didn't and we put in as much time as those people and only got screwed.

It seems like they're listening since they made allagan gear the highest iLevel in the game. I'm hopeful they'll improve loot distribution as well because after 7 months of farming content we should be fully geared out and not still missing pieces.

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Originally Posted by Morgan_Leah

because after 7 months of farming content we should be fully geared out and not still missing pieces.

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After 7 months of farming and not having the full set I am surprised you aren't burnt out and looking for something else to play :S

Well, the elites got what they wanted: the best drops will be from Coil and the plebians can use tomes to get lesser gear.

Been running coil since September and also never even seen casting pants drop. But I don't think I want them handed to me with a token.

I would much rather run coil a bazillion times until they drop. My request : NO LOCKOUTS please.

It also would be great to be able to trade gear back for a fraction of tomes.

Lockout system with tokens. No lockouts with RNG. Lockouts with RNG = /wrists

My view: you will be able to overcome minimal stat differences with skilled play and teamwork. IMO highest tier gear is more of a luxury then a necessity. Sure, its nice to have but its not required in most cases and probably never really will be in 14 unless they add some more extreme encounters in the future which I hope they do.

Can someone share the link where he says that armour from tomes will be lower level than coil?

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

Lockout system with tokens. No lockouts with RNG. Lockouts with RNG = /wrists

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This! ^ x100

The best way to avoid severe RNG would be to implement the token system. (similar to WoW)

2 Tanks, 2 Melee, 2 Casters, 2 Healers, 1 Ranged.

At the bare minimum, the tokens should include Head, Chest, Hands, Legs, and Feet.

Token Number 1- Tank, Melee, Physical Ranged
Token Number 2- Tank, Caster, Healer
Token Number 3- Melee, Caster, Healer.

This means that 30 pieces ((1 Tank, 1 MNK, 1 DRG, 1 BRD, 1 Caster, and 1 Healer piece) x (5 different slots at a minimum)) would be condensed down to 15 drops in Coil + 31 Accessories.

If they really wanted to, they could additionally make the necklaces/earrings/rings/waist/bracers also be shared on tokens, making 31 pieces condense down into a further ~10 pieces, making all of coils drops no more than 26 drops + 9 weapons.

With 4 turns, and 7 chests that would mean each chest shares 6-7 drops each versus Coils current loot distribution of 8-9 drops per chest. If they condensed the accessories, with 4 turns and 7 chests, each chest would drop 3-4 pieces each.

I doubt lockouts are going anywhere, but it's definitely a way to solve the problem, even if it is a totally fantasy-land wish that would never happen. Hell, even just relaxing the lockouts to once every day, or even just three times a week instead of one, would be a huge improvement. Weekly has always seemed like a completely overboard, ridiculous amount of time to have to wait.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

I believe the motivation behind making Coil gear a potentially, since we dont know just yet, higher level than tome gear was to give people a reason to do coil, instead of just hacking away at tomes.

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the best reason is to make CT2 in June relevant.

if Coil, CT and Tomes all have a unique set of gear and two of those sets have to be Top Tier and 1 one of them has to be Top -10, you would want the Tomes to be the -10 set

it can't be Coil because Coil is the hardest content, it also shouldn't be CT because CT is on a 3 month delay.

whatever the Coil gear system is, get what you can from there. use Soldiery gear to bridge the gap or use Soldiery gear to help clear T5 for those who haven't yet. those who have really bad luck with Coil or can't even get the right groups to start clearing 6-9 will be able to get Top Tier gear from CT in 2.3