I'm a old crusty FF11 player and my main was and still is RNG. I do love my range attack job/classes in R.P.Gs and will try to be one in any game. (not that its has any baring on the topic just a bit of history)
Infinite arrow question:
Some of ya might noticed my Arc isn't very high in 14. But this is only because I'm saving up the right crafts for it, getting ready to make arrows, bows etc and then I come across a piece of information that arrows may become a infinite item and be honest it did make my heart sink, to think that something I've worked hard to plan for will become semi pointless.
As might you of guessed I'm siding with "No to infinite arrows" camp. Now I can understand spaces issues very well working on botany has taught me to be ruthless when it comes to invent space but that is not enough to justify arrows to become a infinite item in my mind. Most R.P.Gs have micro management as part of their game mechanics and I guess in strange way its one of the things I like about them learning to manage your space makes you streamlined in your roles "do I need this? can I give it to some one else? whats use is it to me?" all good key aspects to planning. Now I can understand how bothersome it is to lose potential useful items but that is part of it adds a small amount of challenge.
I be honest here part of my plan is to be self reliant on making arrows for my archer. But another reason is for profit. Yes indeed I hope to make some gils on selling my wares to other archers that don't have time to level a crafting job. So I have rashly concluded that this will damage this market considerably and I only humbly ask the Dev team to really think this through.
Another counterpoint and I must admit a weak one is the feel of the job knowing you don't have infinite ammo gives that underlining knowledge that sooner or later your going to run out I'm sure we all have played games where the ammo count has made us nervous and this feeling will disappear with its introduction.
On a end note I will say I can really understand a need to for this to be introduced. Its efficient and helps players putting their mind on the class. but with that you lose part of the feel of the class that makes archers, archers. I know that sounds superficial. But I only ask the Dev team to really consider alternatives such as quivers from 11 a stack of 12 or 99 quivers all with 999 arrows each would be enough to help most of the major spaces issues you would have.
Archers role
I would like to add something I mentioned on the players poll that part of the challenge of archer was in picking which arrows is right for the type of monster you were fighting and pointed to the 14 site as reference. I've not check the site for while but it did mention using different arrows for different circumstances I liked that idea but seems to have gone under the radar a bit. I would like to know whats happening to that one of the things I feel that RNG needed in 11 was more active role than a straight out DD.
Okay now I can only relay on 11 for my MMO experience having only played a few other MMOs but not in as greater depth. So when it comes to 11 RNG main range attack was a "/Shoot" macro and auto attack was only active at close range with what ever weapons you had equipped. So when I saw how ARC in 14 had his/her Bow drawn out instead of appearing when fired I was over joyed it looked good and fitted the role perfectly in my mind.
Now of course auto attack is being introduced and attacking at close quarters is conducted with fists. Not bad a small dagger from a belt would of been better and more fitting. My only concern is the damage I'm guessing (since 1.18 is not out yet) that this will balanced so that getting up to close quarter fight is not comparable to a range attack.
I would like to ask what your thoughts on a "sweet spot" for archer I took great pride in 11 knowing by heart where this spot was and though it was introduced later on in the games development it did add a certain tactical element.
I think that most of my quarries and questions done. I hope it might help a bit and to let ya know I'm very much looking forward to 1.18.
Archer infinite arrows and its role
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07-03-2011, 06:49 PMwiremeshiArcher infinite arrows and its role
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07-03-2011, 09:03 PMPiXelDreaMs
I agree that its a bad idea, it makes no logical sense for a start, how can someone carry around -infinite- arrows, if thats the case i want my lancer to do infinite damage and fly on my command >.> It is an awful idea, the sale of arrows would really stimulate the economy, not to mention people selling the items to MAKE the arrows on the wars more (coral, obsidian, etc.) people sell it now but it is by no means something to farm. The sale of arrows would make a large difference to the use of gil, that is, if SE made arrows actually do something. The amount of ARC in the game atm, if they made the later rank arrows powerful i doubt they all have a high rank CRP to make them themselves :P
In summary, id say in a lesser mmo, infinite arrows would be easily understandable, but in a well established MMO with features such as gear damage that make the game a more realistic experience, 'infinite arrows' just doesnt make sense. -
07-03-2011, 09:31 PMScherwiz
Having only taken RNG to 25 in FFXI, I cannot imagine the immense strain on ones pocket this may have had. However, with that said I have played a Hunter 60 in LOTRO with infinite arrows and I am quite confident it hurts absolutely nothing of gameplay or economy. This is mostly because arrows are cleverly replaced with various class specific items like accuracy books (Similar but not the same as food since there was food as well) and oils to put on infinite arrows that make the arrows fire or light arrows. These various items stacked like arrows do in XI and XIV, so they acted in very similar ways.
Anyway, thats just my take on things, I could honestly care less either way and I do believe in on of Bayohne's posts they said that arrows are staying. The methods to create said arrows are just changing in 1.19, so! Happy Archerering! -
07-03-2011, 10:25 PMwiremeshi
That is interesting I like the idea of putting oil on arrows to make them useable for fire arrows may be its something the Devs could borrow from. I have to clarify though and this is may sound superfluous on my behalf but I don't think it will damage the whole economy just carpenters in general. In FF11 there was always other items Woodworkers (11's carpenters) could relay on and indeed I my self did even more so than arrows. But arrow making is the driving force of my effects I've leveled Carpenter, alchemist, Weaver, leather and botany in order to ready my self when the time comes for me to get ready. I must also add that what sparked me to make a thread was Bayone's post from another thread
I understand that it goes on to mention about the recipe tweaks for 1.19 and also might be conceived as taking his words out of context but that part did stick in my mind I'm not one to make posts really I tend to to read them more than anything else, as anyone can see on my profile but I thought it was something I wanted to point out.Quote:
Bayohne
Checked with the development team about making it possible to use arrows infinitely.
1.19 is a long way off really and things can change I just want this to be thought through and not rushed. in the end my fears may prove unfounded but I'm a sucker for the feel of the game and finding a balance in player friendly usability and setting atmosphere. -
07-03-2011, 10:26 PMGath
They never confirmed anything about infinite arrows, I do believe SE just said "We will look into it." When they say that it means that they don't give a fuck and are just trying to slyly avoid it all together.
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07-03-2011, 10:32 PMRenshi
Making Arrows:
- Helps the Economy
- Has sense
- Drills the player's butthole/bazongas
Also, if you are finished with arrows during the battle, you have to use Scavenge or throw rocks to the enemy.
Both of the butthurt cases are related by the fact that the player has played bad with the arrows (begun Adventure with 200 arrows, has way too much sh*t in the inventory,...), and even if these things are bad to happen, they're Supposed to happen sometimes so you can feel the rage.
Infinite Arrows is for p*ssies. -
07-03-2011, 10:34 PMSHJcules
Sure it's "possible" that arrows will become infinite, but not at all likely.
I wouldn't worry too much that your time in the lumberyard will have all been for naught. -
07-03-2011, 10:40 PMwiremeshi
Thank you for your response guys it may be that I'm over reacting to a statement I'll will try and look in on this thread time to time but I'm not a regular poster. but I'll will try and get back to ya when I have time.
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07-03-2011, 10:46 PMRenshiThat's fine, everybody has better things to do than, or must do things instead of looking the forums =)Quote:
Originally Posted by wiremeshi
*holds on his guitar* -
07-03-2011, 11:42 PMWarlyx
there are lot mmorpgs with infinite arrows
WoW (to be fair used to , but always VENDOR arrows , no crafted)
Lotro (oils but are vendor and cheap)
Rift (none)
AoC (quiver is a equipable slot that boost dmg is like an offhand)
Warhammer
why ? because is "unfair" , if archers are forced to use arrows , forced all other dps to waste consumables to do dps too....
what about Lancers that need to use a sharp stone eveytime in order to use a WS?
if u run out of arrows u are disarmed , u are wortheless , and u need to go back and buy them , and have a stock .........
2011 guys , forcing a class to restock /pay for ammo.....is lame
Inventory space
carpenters? well u can give them something .....
p.d and i played ranger in FFXI /eq2 where is crafted arrows or nothing. (and leveled woodworking on both) , i usually play archer classes ,and find infinite arrows is fine, isnt gamebreaking for me .... -
07-03-2011, 11:53 PMPhysicwhats "fair" about being able to attack from a range? The reason archer pays for arrows is so they can do damage and support at relative safety. an archer can hit a monster like 4 times before it can hit them once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
If any melee class wants to attack from range they also have to pay, and they do less damage, and the items cost more, have a shorter range, and less damage potential with skills. so why should archer have infinite arrows again?
and now come to think of it, ranger melee makes the balance full circle, archer can now attack infinitely at close range, although they wont have the damage, or options that melee have. -
07-03-2011, 11:55 PMRichardwhat does 2011 have to do with anything? If you want to use the 'contemporary' or 'modern' argument why don't you go into 90% of all videogames that use ranged weapons (FPS, RPG ect) and see how many give you infinite ammo. Or better yet lets go into real life military situations. LOL I CAN SHOOT MY M14 FOREVER CUZ I HAS AN INFINICLIP. Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
Since the dawn of time man has had to craft his own ammunition. It will be that way for hundreds of years to come.
You say that it's "unfair" to "force" DPS to use consumables to do DPS? You probably need to go back to your console RPG games because MMOs are not right for you. If you run out of arrows (which you never should if you were are decent ARC) then use Scavenge; that's what it's there for. Inventory Space? Welcome to x2 retainers and bazaar + a default 100 slots AND arrows stack to x999. WTF could you possibly be doing in-game that results in not having enough space. I know linkshell members who have all DoH to 50, carry around 6 billion crafting mats yet still have inv. space for arrows. -
07-03-2011, 11:59 PMWarlyx
what about mages? cast from afar too and dont waste consumables in order to.......
lets force mage to waste consumables for every spell , Black magic scroll x999 , White magic scroll x999 .....
and archers being somewhat OP isnt a good reason to force a class to pay...... because inst rangers fault , is SE fault
and no archer is going to "unload" 4 arrows before the Tank gets some agro ......
if u are talking about solo...........who cares?
@richard "Or better yet lets go into real life military situations." ..... RL card i see......
"Since the dawn of time man has had to craft his own ammunition. It will be that way for hundreds of years to come."
NOT applicable to a videogame if the developers WANT TO , is a fantasy world.......if u can get raised , u can cast fire , ice electric spells...... why u cant have a infinite "magic" quiver?
there are lots of RPGs with archers and nearly all of them have infinite arrows !
FPS <> MMORPG having infinte bullets in a FPS kills the inmersion (if its RL based, because there are FPS with "future weapons" that have infinite charges)
are u all carpenters? -
07-04-2011, 12:06 AMPhysicmages have a resource management with spells, and their darts do very little dmg. Mana is ammunition, if you want to make infinite arrows with mana as a resource management, that could work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
their OPness isnt the point, its the basic advantages and disadvantages of ranged attacking. IRL and in game, one of the big advantages to a melee weapon is, it doesnt run out. the disadvantage to using rocks, arrows or bullets is that you have a finite amount of attacks, the advantage is being able to attack from relative safety, and it is safety, even with monsters with ranged attacks, their real dangerous skills are thier TP skills.
as for unloading 4 attacks without getting agro, its very easy really. multishot is 3 arrows, the way taunt/voke/etc work is it makes it so the enemy cannot attack someone for a time. Also with buffs being large hate, it is pretty easy for a coordinated tank effort to hold hate even past the intial 4 arrow rush, into the 4 arrow+ WS rush.
Also since fleet of the foot gives you greater run speed than 90% of monsters, you still are never in danger of being weapon skilled, unless you decide to risk it for more damage.
there is no reason you should be able to any type of decent damage from the relative safety of range, without any resource management. unless they want to heavily nerf your damage, so that the advantage of being ranged is just that you take less damage. -
07-04-2011, 12:06 AMSeraviEdalborezImplies...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
I don't know about you but I only spend about 200 (maybe far less) arrows on a set of leves, ~100 (VERY generous estimate) per NM fight. A stack is 999. You can carry 2 stacks and realistically be set for (almost) a week. Are we just arguing for the sake of it now? How easy does it have to get?Quote:
Instead of infinite arrows, we're making them even easier to make. See how that works for a bit. We're not considering implementing infinite yet.
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07-04-2011, 12:12 AMChezen
If you don't speak up, chances are the devs might start listening to the other crowd, so you're right to speak your mind op.
I like having to get arrows too. It adds realism and charm to the class. I'm for streamlining games to a point, but there comes a point you might as well let the game play for you. I like having to get the right arrows for the job, and managing those arrows. I even like making sure I have funds for them, while working on my crafting so I can make my own. -
07-04-2011, 12:14 AMJennestiaSE in FFXI: "We'll look into making the next set of addon's battle related; We understand not everyone was satisfied with the first 3."Quote:
Originally Posted by Gath
SE: "Here, have some http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/addon/index.html"
So no it doesn't mean they "don't give a crap and trying to avoid it", it literally means what it says, but that would take the fun out of feeling like you're always correct.
Arrows are a chore to make, not a chore to use and have -- throw in the unbalanced nature of the battle system and there's the current problem. -
07-04-2011, 12:19 AMSavNot that I don't agree with you, but how it works now also rubs me the wrong way. The whole "You refill your quiver with 800 arrows" thing. That must be one hell of a quiver! At the same time, I suppose we have to consider functionality. If we wanted realism, we'd only be running around with a 20-arrow quiver. And beyond that, how do we fit stacks upon stacks of 999 arrows in our travel bag? There will be a gap in realism somewhere, so either its restock arrows from a magic bag or use a magically replenishing stock of arrows.Quote:
Originally Posted by PiXelDreaMs
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07-04-2011, 12:24 AMWynnI would have to agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sav
Whether 999 or infinite, it is still not within the realm of realistic. But then again, this is a game and we shouldn't be looking at realistic situations as much as what works best for the game. -
07-04-2011, 12:25 AMWarlyxso u are ok if Rngs are the best DD ingame , because they pay for arrrows?Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
that isnt worked for FFXI rangers :P (i took a while but....)
Consumables are "ok" dont get me wrong , but the problem is having to rely on a craft in order to fullfill your class to 100%
or u can buy lvl 1 arrows......................... -
07-04-2011, 12:30 AMSeraviEdalborez
Money isn't even an issue right now. I don't know about arrow prices on your servers but I can do a full set of leves for gil and buy another stack (that I didn't even use up) with money to spare. Even if I didn't already make my own or use Warped.
Edit in light of below: And if you do make your own arrows you generally have a lot to go on. 12 of each material would yield 4 stacks. Just under 4000 arrows. -
07-04-2011, 12:30 AMRichardyou're still equating buying mats to be the most OP in the game? have you ever played THM in current "endgame" content? THM > ARC DPS overtime. Guess what...THM uses mana for it's DPS. Just like ARC uses arrows. It's always equivalent exchange. You don't have to rely on a craft to fulfill your ARC to 100%. My CRP is R23 and I don't plan on touching it for a while. I go out and farm Vultures and Arihmans and Silver and Cedar for my Silver Arrows for maybe an hour and I have enough stacks to last me over a month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
and HOLY CRAP YOUR ARC is R25. Why are you posting here? You should be using Warped Arrows until R50 regardless. ofc you wouldn't know that THM > ARC or what time it really takes to get "good" arrows at higher levels. Just go buy your warped arrows and get off the forums and go level. -
07-04-2011, 12:43 AMWarlyxholy crap!!!!! low lvl ppl cant have opinions in this forum!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
u bringed the RL card (rofl @ RL military situations) before ,and now u bring the Low lvl ?
WHY IM POSTING HERE? who are u to ask me that ? .....no1
enough already -
07-04-2011, 12:45 AMPhysicQuote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
no i dont think dps should equal cost, i said they pay for being able to attack from safety, archer is probably the safest dps in the game, maybe thaum, but since thaum depends on mana, and has shorter range, and casting times, its hard to say -
07-04-2011, 12:56 AMShneibel
I do agree with the OP, instead of "infinite arrows" there should be a quiver bag so the player can carry more arrow. The cost to craft arrows is not expensive
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07-04-2011, 01:12 AMRedAffinity
The solution here is to have base-infinite arrows, and allow players to upgrade arrows by equipping arrows they've crafted/purchased if they so choose. If they don't have the $$$ or the inventory, or simply run out during a long battle then they can still function as a true Archer. They just won't have the benefits of equipped arrows such as increased damage, defense down (like acid arrows) etc.. etc..
that's just my idea -
07-04-2011, 01:38 AMScherwizNot at all, you brought up a great point, and an important one to me and many others. Thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by wiremeshi
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07-04-2011, 03:17 AMRabidSquirrel
So...the only real arguments I see against infinite arrows are:
Realism.
Well neither is a quiver of 999 arrows.
It helps the economy.
If making consumable weapons helps the economy, then we should make all weapons consumables! That would really help the economy. But seriously. The economical difference would be negligible. If crafters other than carpenters can make money off of non-consumable weapons, so can carpenters.
I've spent too much time making myself self-sufficient for arrows to just become infinite.
I'm sorry but all MMOs have you putting in a lot of time and effort into things that will just be replaced.
I'm all for getting rid of useless mechanics. Since arrows deals with combat, give it some real combat meaning or get rid of it.
And my final words are: Final Fantasy XII -
07-04-2011, 03:35 AMSavHahaha, I can picture it now... Gladiator: "Sorry, guys. I have to craft some more stacks of swords or else I'm useless."Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidSquirrel
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07-04-2011, 03:40 AMChezenSure, why not? Make swords need sharpening stones. That will give crafters something else to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by RabidSquirrel
To put the shoe on the other foot, the only reasons to make it automated is "easier" and "money". Neither of those are that valid either, depending on your view.
In things like these, the only thing that really matters is fun factor and what SE wants to do with the game. Some find it fun, some do not. But I bet the crafters appreciate the business, and it's one of the few stable things in the economy. That tips the scales on "keep" in terms of keeping the game appealing to the widest audience, I should think. -
07-04-2011, 03:50 AMrubinaI'm not sure how accurate the two above points are. But I want to remember that even from WoW beta and forward, you had to purchase arrows & bullets. Yes you can purchase vendor ammo, but the best ammo in the game is still player crafted. As for LoTRO, there are low level oils, but again the best oils & chants are still player crafted. So you are restricted by how many shots you get for WoW, not so much for LoTRO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlyx
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07-04-2011, 03:54 AMChezenThey changed it to auto, and I disagreed with it then as well, personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubina
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07-04-2011, 04:23 AMSymon17
My only qualm about this is the lack of balance, and I don't even play archer. It's been argued that it helps the economy/adds realism/ect. But why is archer the only class that needs to do those things? Marauders can attack up and down all day and night without ever worrying about running out of anything. And if the realism thing is really so important, then DoM shouldn't exist. Just as people run out of arrows in real life, people do not ever have magic.
I do understand the other side's points, which is why I believe an unlimited default arrow should be implemented. Then archers would have the option to buy/make much more efficient, yet limited, arrows. It really is the best compromise considering the situation. -
07-04-2011, 04:27 AMyukikaze_yanagiFor a quite stupid thing : once shooted an arrow it's pretty difficult taking it back, a 2 handed axe usually can't be throwed...'-'Quote:
My only qualm about this is the lack of balance, and I don't even play archer. It's been argued that it helps the economy/adds realism/ect. But why is archer the only class that needs to do those things? Marauders can attack up and down all day and night without ever worrying about running out of anything.
i see your point btw, that's why in 1.19 arrows would be easier to craft -
07-04-2011, 04:33 AMSymon17haha true, can't you pick up and reuse arrows in Zelda, or something like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi
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07-04-2011, 04:42 AMRichardyou can do that in many games. you can do it in XIV - its called Scavenge. Free arrows on a cooldown as long as you have 1 arrow in your inventory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Symon17
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07-04-2011, 04:58 AMSymon17I just watched a video basically showing it off. It's definitely better than throwing rocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
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07-04-2011, 11:18 AMDavorok
I am against Infinite Arrows (I play Archer in every MMO if that adds any weight), however I will still enjoy Archer if it gets infinite, I just prefer consumable arrows of different varieties (Ice, Fire, etc.).
I would like to see an improved Scavenge though where you can retrieve spent arrows from the dead bodies of your foes. Perhaps make it so that "magic arrows" (ice, fire, etc) become normal arrows once "retrieved" but can be Recharged thru crafting or Materia.
As a compromise, perhaps "Normal Arrows" (non-magically enhanced) are almost infinite with Retrieve, but "Magic Arrows" always need to be crafted/imbued? -
07-04-2011, 11:27 AMSpeeral
Nah infinite ammo is not a good idea and anyway to keep the crafts balanced and in need is positively a good idea. Im with tye depleting ur ammo and inv management side.
I played ranger and it was important to ke to have a good supply of ammo to play my role in game. -
07-04-2011, 11:32 AMSav
As long as the quiver is an entirely separate bag, I think I would be happy. Sure, I'm not an ARC, but I'm still entitled to my opinion.