Pretty simple question : why do MT tank suparna instead of chirada? I understand that in a full premade group it can be efficient, but with pugs, I find this pretty random.
Simple reason is that, from my experience, it's way more consistent to tank chirada. You can accurately predict the WW, and avoid feather rain. That's just less risk imo, which is important when you go with random people.
When you tank suparna+garuda, double WW can happen before the jump, OR after the jump (depending on DPS on 2nd add? this is my understanding). So if I wait the AE on the ground, then pop sentinel, it's just a bet : I can mitigate damage if dps is low, or loose the cooldown cause of teleport if dps is good, and have to use a second CD. If I wait for the jump, it's a bet and I could easily get one shoted.
I'm not trying to convince that "tanking chirada is a better method", I'm just saying that I find it more consistent for pug groups, just because it seems to me that an average group.
So I was wondering the reason why people apply this method : is it just popular even if it's not really good for pug groups (since it can be inconsistent depending on the group. Can be good for a static though), or if there is a mechanic a misunderstand there....
MT Garuda ex
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02-07-2014, 11:20 PMleprovMT Garuda ex
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02-08-2014, 01:12 AMsamircury
U know that suparna and garuda switch place when they jump right ?
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02-08-2014, 01:27 AMSkull_AngelThat (jump) only seems to happen when Chirada's hp hits 50%, which shouldn't normally happen if you tank Garuda + Chirada and focus down Suparna (I've only seen it happen when a mage prematurely LBs Garuda + Chirada with Suparna still up). Neither method is inherently better, as you should use the one that best suits your group composition and skill/awareness level.Quote:
Originally Posted by samircury
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02-08-2014, 01:53 AMkukurumeiNot really, suprana would wicked wheel your melees, making that one fine mess. If you do all range, you might as go suprana anyway, because it makes no difference to wicked and then you get garuda regens with the strong lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skull_Angel
And then you get feather all over the place and anyone hit by feathers will get a wind debuff, and will most likely die even inside the bubble.
MTing garuda and suprana is not easy, but tanks have to suck it up, because really, you're expected to tank even harder stuff after garuda ex.
It all comes down to the MT and healers...Mostly MT, 30 second of rotating CDs, or...you keep pumping out heals for 1minute. So in the end, while you can't blame a MT for not being able to tank that phase, the same applies, why can't you? It's 30 seconds of making sure you have CDs?
Basically it's the MT going "I don't want to deal with this shit, you all just have to do what I can't".
And it's not the healers. Most any healer/blm/smn can preshield/stoneskin/and virus a MT on surpana for 30 seconds. If they're not, then chirada isn't going to make a difference because you'll most likely burn through your mp and die anyway. -
02-08-2014, 02:02 AMGourry_Gabriev
Once the you practice it a few times, the pattern is pretty easy to get down for tanking Garuda+Suparna.
The very first double ww comes after Suparna casts friction, so as a PLD I use rampart+foresight and flash for the chance of a dodge.
All add phases after that, just pop rampart+foresight shortly after Garuda spawns the tornadoes and they will still be up when ww hits. Of course you also use flash for these too.
With this method, bulwark and sentinel are still available should you need to eat another ww due to things going wrong, or you can alternate them on add phases for the additional mitigation if you need. Also Stoneskin yourself when possible. -
02-08-2014, 02:26 AMkukurumeiThe first WW is about 10 seconds once tornados starts if the support is doing their job(and throwing down sacred, super virus, virus, eye, aqu, etc) You shouldn't even need a CD (though obvious taking that chance is fool hardy). Very easy to time since once tornados start, everything should be piled onto garuda/suprana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gourry_Gabriev
(blms/SMN are notorious for derping until you call them out on virusing suprana)
The only thing is the 2nd batch which has feathers. That's where most MT die, and need to be on the ball.
Basically MT's really only die 1 of 2 ways, Lack of support, or lose thier defensive CD due to stupidity.
Tanking will only get harder from garuda not easier, so it's really something tanks should be learning anyway. It's not going to get easier. -
02-08-2014, 02:28 AMGrembo
If MT can dodge 2 WW's then surely Melee can dodge one? Our group never had issues with the OT pulling Suprana method, I presume pugs are a horrible mess.
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02-08-2014, 02:31 AMKyana
MT -> Garuda+Suparna | OT -> Chirada:
MT will have to manage double WW and later on Spiny Plume too.
This means high dmg spikes on MT and high risk of wipe if either MT or healer make an error.
MT -> Garuda+Chirada | OT -> Suparna:
MT still has to endure alot of damage from WW+Downburst and manage Spiny Plume.
Only viable if DDs are cappable of killing Suparna before she can use WW.
High risk of wipes from errors again.
MT -> Garuda/Suparna | OT -> Garuda/Suparna | DDs -> Chirada:
MT and OT both have only 1 mob to tank which makes swapping Spiny Plume eaiser.
No problem if Garuda and Suparna switch places between MT and OT.
DDs+healers stack and burn down Chirada. Slipstream can be dodged and Downburst damage is split between hit characters.
Less dmg spikes making it easier for healer/s to keep everyone up.
Less risk of wiping if someone messes up.
I prefer the last method.
I don't understand why the MT and healer/s should carry the whole burden of this fight just because it's "common tactic" or "it's shown in a video guide".
And people who say "only bad tanks/healers can't do this"... why can't DDs dodge 1 attack to make the fight easier for everyone? -
02-08-2014, 02:33 AMSkull_AngelI've main tanked both methods with varying strat.s multiple times (wins) and neither is harder from a MT standpoint when you know the basic timing; even for melee, Suparna's Wicked Wheel is easily dodgeable, it comes right after Friction. Using the basic strat that has the MT tank Garuda + Chirada is normally less stressful for less experienced healers because they're not going to see the MT hit that "oh &^%#!" point of <60% HP with proper CDs + shields and have a heart attack over-healing (you see this happen often with a pug healer).Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
With MT pulling double method, the first phase should normally be done with MT pulling Garuda + Suparna, there's no doubt there, but after that it should be taken whichever way is easier on your group. The only difficult part of tanking both Garuda + Suparna is timing Inner Beast right for 2xWW, and even that isn't too hard, it will come shortly after Friction; does IB wear off before WW hits some times? Sure, if your luck sucks, but with Storm's Path, ToB and Veng. up it still won't kill you if you've been properly shielded. -
02-08-2014, 02:37 AMkukurumeiYou loose about 10-15 seconds of melee dps getting out of wicked wheel range, and it's harder then MT, because melees can't just "pop a cool down". Add to the fact you also regening garuda a few percent for the phase, and the fact that the OT who is tanking suprana has to get spiny with whicked on his rear and have healers split their heals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skull_Angel
In the garuda+ suprana, the OT basically does not need to be healed unless he touches a tornado. Once suprana dies, neither needs any real attention, being the main reason for singe heal strat.
Bascially MT is going "Shit I can't do this, do it for me" to the rest of the members. -
02-08-2014, 02:42 AMMessenger
I dont think the starter of this topic ever read this...
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02-08-2014, 02:46 AMSkull_AngelIf melee are losing up to 15 sec dodging WW they're doing something wrong; not to mention that your group can easily change strat.s to accommodate them (and probably should). As for the regeneration, I've never seen any difference, my static members have stated there's no difference with somewhat surprise (outside of carrying a bad damage dealer).Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
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02-08-2014, 02:50 AMkukurumeiIf MT can't survive the feather double wicked, then he's doing something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skull_Angel
It's tic for tat.
And the regen makes a difference between LBing garuda on tornado and pushing her to the next phase. her arial burst is stronger each time even inside the bubble. -
02-08-2014, 03:04 AMSkull_AngelI think you're completely missing what I'm trying to get across; with competent players, any of the strats makes no difference, you tailor your strat to your group.Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
Garuda's regen isn't half as potent as it's claimed to be, we see the same level regenerated no matter which strat we use; hence, she always dies at the same point 'less we carry a damage dealer using either strat. MT should be dodging feathers if Chirada is killed first; the placement can be a bit funky (and dangerous if a ranged player is derping about), but it's not impossible. -
02-08-2014, 03:13 AMkukurumeinot really, if you do have "competent" players then single healer strat with MT on suprana is the "best". Single healer strat easly can carry even 1 dead body unlike other strat, and pushes garuda to 1 phase, and you only get 1 wicked wheel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skull_Angel
You're trying to split hairs on a strat that is not optimize and really benefits only one member. I don't know why this chirada tanking keeps coming up. Maybe because it's a tanking sub-forum.
While yes it does vary from group to group,
It's un optimized, and even more dangerous then 3 way tanking in some ways. MTing is not easy, but "competent group" is stretching the believably factor.
"no difference" is not the correct term. -
02-08-2014, 03:34 AMSkull_AngelSingle healer strat is optimized for a specific composition, this isn't possible or optimized for everyone due to gear and job restrictions; again, you tailor your strat to your group.Quote:
Originally Posted by kukurumei
"Chirada tanking" keeps coming up because it works better for some groups, I'm not sure why this would surprise you. "No difference" was in reference to the standard comp.s utilizing 2 healers, may be I should quit assuming people talk about the most common place compositions and strategies. I'm not sure where you're going with the remark about having a "competent group", you see i85+ players that haven't a clue about their job/class on a common basis. I would even argue that MTing is easy; every fight is scripted, you learn the way it progresses and execute your abilities according to such. -
02-08-2014, 03:38 AMhoraiyo
Having healed this quite a bit, I always use the jump as my cue to cast ss/adlo/virus/sacred (ss/adlo while they’re in the air, virus/sacred immediately after they come back down). I assume that when I tank this, wouldn’t that still be a good way of judging when to pop cds (ss while they’re in the air, rampart or whatever else as soon as they land)?
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02-08-2014, 03:51 AMSkull_AngelDepending on what strat you use:Quote:
Originally Posted by horaiyo
Garuda + Suparna - 2x Wicked Wheel will shortly follow Friction (Jump isn't always a good cue). You have more than enough up-time on CDs (aside from Inner Beast) to use them as Friction ends. Use Inner Beast when Friction animation ends (not the cast bar animation) and it should last long enough.
Garuda + Chirada - Garuda's WW window normally opens shortly after Chirada begins casting Friction, but can go on 'till after. The timing is funky here, but if you use a off-gcd ability as soon as you see Chirada cast Friction, you should be fine. Chirada will use Downburst shortly after she finishes casting Friction so the abilities are staggered (WW then Db). This is how it plays out when we use this method; Chi starts Friction > I use ToB + IB > Garuda uses WW > I use Vengence + Convalescence (possibly Infuriate and Inner Beast again if HP is low) > Chirada uses Downburst. -
02-08-2014, 04:19 AMSirTaint
Tornado Phase Garuda+Suprana never gives me issues, the WWs stagger more often and Suprana cancels Friction for WW with good DPS. (we don't kill Chirada at all during Tornados even in PUGs) Rampart should be up each time, just use it right when Garuda summons the twisters. Then just pop another cool down if Suprana is still alive.
The first WW is always doubled up. (Pre Tornados) With good DPS it should happen right after they jump. If WW happens before they jump then your DPS is low. -
02-08-2014, 04:21 AMGourry_GabrievThe jump isn't a good cue for wicked wheel because it happens based on Chirada's health. If your dps is lacking, the jump can happen after wicked wheel. The actual cue for wicked wheel comes in the form of the target marker that Chirada puts on her current target before she does downburst.Quote:
Originally Posted by horaiyo
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02-08-2014, 04:28 AMMythToken
All the right things have been said in here, tailor your strat to your group. Solo healz makes this fight insanely easier. Double wicked wheel is easily dealt with if you just watch for friction, or have your OT call it out. Nuff said.
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02-08-2014, 04:33 AMSpookyGhost
Ok. I don't know what is wrong with everyone, but popping Sentinel, Hallowed Ground, Vengeance, or Thrill of Battle to eat 2x WW isn't hard. I don't know who decided that this was difficult. They jump, they come back, Friction, you hit the button, you eat the 2x WW. If this is somehow a difficult concept for you, maybe tanking isn't your thing and I don't know how you made it to Garuda EX when Titan HM employs the same concept. Rock Breaker -> Mountain Buster.
Anyway, the best possible strat is to split all 3 to different people. MT on Garuda, OT on Suparna and a melee on Chirada. Everyone (DPS + Heals) splits the Downburst damage, MT and OT take 1 wicked wheel, everything is 100% fine and 100% easier to manage. But only Japan does this because apparently no one else thinks that DPS can take damage and not die. -
02-08-2014, 05:43 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
And killing Chirada is pointless and prolongs the fight :p -
02-08-2014, 05:56 AMMythTokenPlease delete your post for not being relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
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02-08-2014, 05:58 AMGamemako
Well, shit, I just accidentally cleared my response. Basically, OP, l2p. Eating double WW is easy and predictable (hint: pop CDs at the end of Garuda's slipstream), dodging is pointless and risky, and a bunch of people got blinders attached to their noggins due to i90 static groups overgearing and winning anyway. Those people should just do the Suparna-only farm method.
Suparna to OT is good with all ranged DPS. Otherwise, unnecessary risk in addition to reduced DPS. Split method (aka triangle method) has a lot of moving parts and fails 100% of the time in pugs. MT on double WW method is not difficult; it's just rote. Hard part is OT wrangling with DPS and healers. -
02-08-2014, 06:41 AMleprov
Wow....Did any of you read original post?
Yeah, casting a cd just after friction is easy. Yeah, with an optimal composition, the fight isn't hard. That's not my question.
The problem is about pug groups. They apply the strat that isn't hard for a good group, but is the most risky according to the fact that you don't know with who you are.
In pugs, it's often that :
- your offtank messes the pull on his add, and so is long to place the add, or : the WW happens before the jump.
- your dps are low : the WW happens before the jump
- your group is perfect : the WW happens after the jump.
So you can't just tell "double WW is shortly after friction" if you are in pug. It's either "shortly after friction if your dps is bad (or OT made dps bad), or shortly after jump if your group is fine". It's not a real risk in a static group, but in pug, you can easily wipe cause of this. So if you can minimize this risk in pug : what don't I do right? So if I understood well, rampart+foresight just after friction makes both buffs up even if garuda+suparna jump, and cd come back for every phase? -
02-08-2014, 06:54 AMTraek
If you have all ranged, MT takes Suparna, OT takes Chirada. All kill Suparna first, then Chirada. ez pz. I don't know why groups always kill OT's first. Killing Suparna first removes the jump, x2 Wicked Wheel (less stress on heals + tank), and Chirada hits like a pillow with everything but downburst. I usually front load my CDs on Chirada if I OT like this (Vengeance + IB for downburst, IB is up for next one anyways) so heals can snooze through till Suparna dies. The OT can also pick up the Spiny Plume every fight this way, so there is no confusion and a consistent run.
If you got a melee just 3 ranged Suparna, 1 melee Chirada. -
02-08-2014, 08:39 AMGamemakoYes, and I created a much more complete debunking before accidentally clearing it. If you are having trouble with hitting double WW with jump, it is your fault. It is not the game, is not the strategy, it is you. Additionally, PUG groups with melee DPS will fail reliably if you take Suparna because somewhere in the 3-5 times you cycle around, a melee will screw up and you will wipe. Better still, if you are struggling with DPS, there's no way you're going to turn a fail into a win by using a strategy that, in the absolute best case, decreases your DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by leprov
Actually, you can. The jump doesn't take up 8 minutes. I never, ever miss Vengeance on double WW -- only thing I ever do miss is Inner Beast, which I cap with another Infuriate->IB. The fight is entirely scripted. In the first sister phase, it's after Suparna's Downburst, which comes after Garuda's Friction. In the tornado phase, it's Chirada's downburst, which comes after Garuda's Slipstream. When Garuda uses her Slipstream, move to dodge and hit Rampart/ToB. When it finishes, move back and hit Foresight/Vengeance at next action.Quote:
Originally Posted by leprov
If you have a melee, well, you answered your own question. Unless you're dramatically overgeared, the spiny swap has to happen while both sisters are alive, which is dangerous to everyone involved and gives both targets 50-70% damage reduction for the duration. You also enjoy longest duration of buff times for everything. Worst-case, you also get hit with two double wicked wheels for your effort. No real advantage to trying it that way unless you're geared to the hilt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Traek
If you're all ranged, then it really doesn't matter. You can ignore Chirada altogether and blast Garuda in 4-5 minutes with all ranged. -
02-08-2014, 05:52 PMKuwagamifrom my experience, you can predict wether suparna will WW without friction, when she derps with Slipstream, she will usually use WW before friction.Quote:
Originally Posted by leprov
Usually, what I see is :
1) garuda uses Slipstream right away, immediatly followed by suparna. get ready for friction and pop a CD right after it. I also move to next tornado angle asap to avoid pre-wrap WW.
2) Suparna somehow doesn't use Slipstream before tornadoes come. You'll get WWed before friction comes. Pop a CD after 3-4 secs and pray for your healer to be on top level, it will hurt. running away after garuda's friction helps also.
3) if they wrap, you can avoid all damage more or less by going in an other angle, coming back, then CD and re go to an other corner. You'll get only Garuda's WW at max -
02-11-2014, 03:05 AMTraekThe point was if you are all ranged (on my server its often shot for) they *SHOULD* be killing the MT's add first. There is no reason to kill the OT's first with all ranged. You are removing the chance of MT getting roflpwned by x2 wicked wheel as soon as Suparna is dead. As much as we like to portray what happens in our statics or perfect scenario, I am pretty sure we have all seen our very hard faceplants in pugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
As far as 3 ranged 1 melee, if your ranged is at the appropriate dps then the swap scenario (reduced damage) doesn't happen. Obviously that isn't the case often times, so I agree. In that case their DD wouldn't be good enough to down Chirada before provoke was ready again for Suparna, so you could easily taunt spiny at start as OT, then taunt Suparna across for melee as ranged kill and MT grabs spiny off you. There really is too many ways to do this fight successfully.
I am of course talking downing both sisters, the method of ignoring Chirada and burning Suparna/Garuda is a valid one if agreed upon, its still not a standard yet. I haven't even seen one pug group suggest it.