Galvanize Suggestion

Two scholars don't have good synergy with regards to galvanize and scholar AoE healing with succor isn't extremely potent.

To fix this I suggest that in situations when galvanize would have no effect due to already being applied, the healing potency of adloquium and succor should be boosted:
-Adloquium to 500
-Succor to 250

This would help in situations where two scholars are present and in situations when aoe healing needs to be done. This wouldn't step on whm's toes because succor and adloquium would still be less efficient than medica and cure II respectively while still keeping only one galvanize up at a time.

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Originally Posted by DantedmcVII

Two scholars don't have good synergy with regards to galvanize and scholar AoE healing with succor isn't extremely potent.

To fix this I suggest that in situations when galvanize would have no effect due to already being applied, the healing potency of adloquium and succor should be boosted:
-Adloquium to 500
-Succor to 250

This would help in situations where two scholars are present and in situations when aoe healing needs to be done. This wouldn't step on whm's toes because succor and adloquium would still be less efficient than medica and cure II respectively while still keeping only one galvanize up at a time.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ass-Comparison

I linked this so that you can actually look over a comparison of the classes as they stand right now. I'm still working on improving it/adding to it, but to put it simply SCH is the better single target healer and with proper use of rotations/communications SCH/SCH is the best healer combo due to the combined utility, non stop roused whispering dawn, amazing mana recovery/management, and ease of healing while maintaining mobility. My answer to you sir, is no.

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Originally Posted by Splorch

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ass-Comparison

I linked this so that you can actually look over a comparison of the classes as they stand right now. I'm still working on improving it/adding to it, but to put it simply SCH is the better single target healer and with proper use of rotations/communications SCH/SCH is the best healer combo due to the combined utility, non stop roused whispering dawn, amazing mana recovery/management, and ease of healing while maintaining mobility. My answer to you sir, is no.

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haha! says someone who has never been inside Titan EX. Even if 2 SCH manage a *perfect* communication rotation, WD uptime is only 21 seconds, so with 2 at max its about 68% uptime.

Alrighty. I'll take the hit. With my FC consisting of 3 actual players, and getting through garuda isn't exactly like clockwork magic. Doesn't mean I haven't beaten all but t5 of coil or haven't seen garuda at 1%(3 times now)in a pug. 42/57 seconds(spell speed takes affect for WD) is roughly 71%. With planning you can keep it up for all phases in which aoe damage is inbound. Am I the end all be all healer? No. But on 99% of parses I outparse SCH's by about 100 +/- HPS(not counting some crap like T2 enrage), but Eos always heals about 300 hps, giving SCH's an easy 200 HPS lead. As long as SCH don't over write eachother, they will always have the potential to produce more hps, have more emergencies available, better single target healing(which is where 90% of healing goes anyways) and more utility. The argument still stands.

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Originally Posted by Splorch

Alrighty. I'll take the hit. With my FC consisting of 3 actual players, and getting through garuda isn't exactly like clockwork magic. Doesn't mean I haven't beaten all but t5 of coil or haven't seen garuda at 1%(3 times now)in a pug. 42/57 seconds(spell speed takes affect for WD) is roughly 71%. With planning you can keep it up for all phases in which aoe damage is inbound. Am I the end all be all healer? No. But on 99% of parses I outparse SCH's by about 100 +/- HPS(not counting some crap like T2 enrage), but Eos always heals about 300 hps, giving SCH's an easy 200 HPS lead. As long as SCH don't over write eachother, they will always have the potential to produce more hps, have more emergencies available, better single target healing(which is where 90% of healing goes anyways) and more utility. The argument still stands.

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ok, pls explain in your opinion how SCH have more HPS than WHM?

Eos, plain and simple. A pet that averages 300 hps when used properly by well geared healer. Most fights end with the healers at 600-800 hps. Its the equivalent an extra half healer, complete with utility.

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Originally Posted by Splorch

Eos, plain and simple. A pet that averages 300 hps when used properly by well geared healer. Most fights end with the healers at 600-800 hps. Its the equivalent an extra half healer, complete with utility.

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Eos heals 300 HPS? So every cast (3 seconds) eos heals 900? I don't think this is true/

Copy pasted from another of my posts

Medica II vs Whispering(roused) *(iLvL 83 WHM/SCH)
DS + Medica II ticks for AVG 161 10x over 30 seconds = 1610 + 624 initial (2234 total) ~74hps / Costs 452 mana with a ~2.85 GCD/cast time can cause aggro issues(WHM death) depending on fight/tank
Rouse + whispering dawn does AVG 338 8x over 24 seconds = 2710 total ~112hps / Costs 0 mana, no GCD, fairy 1.9 second cast/may cause Eos a death depending on fight
Rouse + Fey Illumination + whispering dawn AVG 405 8x over 24 seconds = 3244 total ~135hps / Costs 0 mana, no GCD, Fairy has slight delay + 1.9 second cast//may cause Eos a death depending on fight

not using the fey illum example above, *Editted, i gave it 24/57 instead of 21 originally, math was adjusted accordingly.(shouldn't be healing and arguing at the same time, i suck)
112hps per player. So x8 gives you 896 HPS for 21/57 seconds. that alone is worth ~330 HPS (every minute). That isn't even including embrace.

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Originally Posted by Splorch

Copy pasted from another of my posts

Medica II vs Whispering(roused) *(iLvL 83 WHM/SCH)
DS + Medica II ticks for AVG 161 10x over 30 seconds = 1610 + 624 initial (2234 total) ~74hps / Costs 452 mana with a ~2.85 GCD/cast time can cause aggro issues(WHM death) depending on fight/tank
Rouse + whispering dawn does AVG 338 8x over 24 seconds = 2710 total ~112hps / Costs 0 mana, no GCD, fairy 1.9 second cast/may cause Eos a death depending on fight
Rouse + Fey Illumination + whispering dawn AVG 405 8x over 24 seconds = 3244 total ~135hps / Costs 0 mana, no GCD, Fairy has slight delay + 1.9 second cast//may cause Eos a death depending on fight

not using the fey illum example above,
112hps per player. So x8 gives you 896 HPS for 24/51 seconds. that alone is worth 421 HPS. That isn't even including embrace.

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its 21 seconds for Whispering Dawn, which is a 35% uptime. So take your 135hps * 35% uptime = 47hps

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Originally Posted by Squa

its 21 seconds for Whispering Dawn, which is a 35% uptime. So take your 135hps * 35% uptime = 47hps

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x8 players

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Originally Posted by Splorch

x8 players

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Medica II, CURE III and Medica can also hit all 8 players, so its not necessary to include that figure in calculations when making comparisons.

Medica II and Cure III are both used and part of my healing when they are required. I don't count their HPS potential on 1 person, I have to view it as a whole. Embrace with no crits AVG 635 every 3 seconds is over 200 hps as well. Together spamming eos you could potentially reach 500 hps without spending any mana.

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Originally Posted by Splorch

Medica II and Cure III are both used and part of my healing when they are required. I don't count their HPS potential on 1 person, I have to view it as a whole. Embrace with no crits AVG 635 every 3 seconds is over 200 hps as well. Together spamming eos you could potentially reach 500 hps without spending any mana.

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SCH are great healers and mana efficient, I don't argue that. However, WHM Cure III can 550 potency per 2.5 seconds = 229 PPS * 8 = 1760 potency per second
Whispering Dawn, is 700 potency over 21 seconds (1120 with rouse+fey) = 53 PPS * 8 = 424 PPS (this doesn't even include the 35% uptime max which would make it 148pps over 1 minute)

So you can see WHM is really the more powerful healer in terms of raw output. I am not saying SCH is bad, they just need a boost to be at WHM level.

Neither of us will back down. People who read it can think what they will. SCH is still the stronger healer all around IMO and for the most part the math and parses have proven it so. The only thing a WHM has is group wide recovery, and its costly and for most battles is not required.

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Originally Posted by Splorch

Neither of us will back down. People who read it can think what they will. SCH is still the stronger healer all around IMO and for the most part the math and parses have proven it so. The only thing a WHM has is group wide recovery, and its costly and for most battles is not required.

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Parsers are, meh. Look at it this way, any new content that is solo healed, will be done with a WHM. Many of the extreme primals, especially Ultima/Titan, can be done fien with WHM/WHM, WHM/SCH, but SCH/SCH is pretty weak and usually ends up fail.

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Originally Posted by Squa

Parsers are, meh. Look at it this way, any new content that is solo healed, will be done with a WHM. Many of the extreme primals, especially Ultima/Titan, can be done fien with WHM/WHM, WHM/SCH, but SCH/SCH is pretty weak and usually ends up fail.

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I think you might just be a poor SCH if you fail most the time if paired with another SCH.

The lack of Galvanize stacking is the biggest problem SCH/SCH has. Not saying SCH/SCH isn't doable, but I'd say it's weaker than WHM/WHM
the strongest combo of course if WHM/SCH.

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Originally Posted by Sabeta

the strongest combo of course if WHM/SCH.

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Even now this is being debated in healing circles as FCs are experimenting with the various combos. Since 2.1 nerfed Medica II (less HPS), Eos now offers superior AoE HP regen. Assuming both SCHs are on the same page and rotating their skills in and out, 99% of the fights in this game would actually favor that SCH/SCH combo simply because SCH offers a ton of mechanics that offer great utility to the party. WHM are only heal machines, and not good for anything else.

Not saying WHM/SCH isn't strong, but we are playing a game where every single fight is scripted (thus SCH pre-shields are more effective than WHM straight heals), and we are playing a game where the tank is taking 99% of the damage (and SCH are the undisputed better tank healers). Really, the only content that would make having at least 1 WHM necessary would be a fight that is not scripted. The mob would have its own AI that allows it to respond to the party differently every encounter. This would require a "reaction healer" like WHM since no one would ever know when the next big AoE damage spike would be coming.

As it stands in CURRENT (and I stress that word) FFXIV, SCH/SCH is a superior combo to have due to utility.

I tip my hat to you Velox for being another person that understands. A perfect example of this is comparing Wardens in Eq2(tso and back because I stopped after that) vs the other healer classes. They were indisputably the strongest recovery healing class, but they had crap utility and did not have any way to mitigate damage. They could make great recoveries, but once content was learned, the script was down, and timers were rolling no one ever wanted a warden in the raid unless it was an off night and its all that was available. Having utility, mitigation, and single target pretty much covers everything in this game. WHM/SCH works well together for learning, but once content is on lockdown that WHM needs to roll over to SCH.

That sounds perfectly reasonable. Then would you say double Eos is the better combination as well? the enhanced speed from Selene seems to only really benefit Black Mages. Everyone else sees it as efficiency going down. I've been stuck using Selene in T2 a lot lately for the Silence (somehow groups can't find a Paladin or second bard), and I've been noticing the difference in heals quite a bit.

@Splorch:
Clear all the content first, then give advice.

Have fun with math all you want but when it's time to take theorycrafting off paper and into practice, your ideas fall short.

Edit: Clarity.

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Originally Posted by echoist

@Splorch:
Clear all the content first, then give advice.

Have fun with math all you want but when it's time to take theorycrafting off paper and into practice, your ideas fall short.

Edit: Clarity.

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Eh when you are 1/8 of a raid team clearing all available content is representative of two things, luck in getting in a good group and skill in the individual. Most the time people fall short in the first category. Besides we already have seen scholars saying they cleared titan ex dual sch, and that it felt easier than whm/sch. So much for ideas falling short in practice.

I'd love to hear about dual scholar attempts or success on twintania btw, doubt many people have even tried it though. The only thing that might prove difficult are fireballs and death sentences, but with two scholars spamming adlo pre ds there is probably a good chance you will have a crit adlo before ds cast. Or between scholar stoneskin and sacred soil you mitigate roughly the same amount a whm would have with their improved stoneskin.

@AishaK:
I never suggested that it was impossible to clear end-game content with a double Scholar group comp. And Titan Extreme is not the hardest content currently in the game.

When it comes to giving and taking advice, I find it best to speak from experience. I would never :ever: trade the natural compliment of a SCH/WHM combo for another Scholar.

Just my two cents, as somebody who actually :has: cleared everything in the game.

Edit: Clarity.

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Originally Posted by echoist

@Splorch:
Clear all the content first, then give advice.

Have fun with math all you want but when it's time to take theorycrafting off paper and into practice, your ideas fall short.

Edit: Clarity.

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I'm 3 battles short now. T5, titan, and ifrit. Given time I can easily see getting all but t5 using my network of pieced together friends and random acquaintances. Doing content with random people adds its own extra difficulty as I have to feel out what I get grouped with, and in many cases make up for other people faults. Its why I play WHM. The class is designed to fix other peoples errors.

@ echo

there is only one fight harder haha. If people are clearing content easier without a whm it kind of renders the class irrelevant now doesnt it?

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Originally Posted by AishaK

Besides we already have seen scholars saying they cleared titan ex dual sch, and that it felt easier than whm/sch. So much for ideas falling short in practice.

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There are vids of whm solo healing titan EX so I don't see your point. I bet that's a lot easier to do on whm than sch.

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Originally Posted by DantedmcVII

There are vids of whm solo healing titan EX so I don't see your point. Try to do that with sch have fun.

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Oh nice whm can solo heal a random fight. I never said whm's cant heal or dont have nice aoe heals just that in terms of progression and end game scholars are looking to outperform whm. All the aoe healing power in the world means nothing if there are no fights designed with a whm aoe specifically in mind. Otherwise its safer to bring along the superior single target healer with sufficient aoe pet healing

Seriously, might as well have brought up turn 2 enrage strat, see guys whm is fine, they can aoe heal lots!

it would be awesome, but our role is mitigation, i would prefer stackable shield, i dont like when we r two scholars and shields just reset, its like if a whm uses medica III and the other whm uses too but no effect of healing, so, also, when i did titan ex with another scholar it felt diferent, we where using a lot of succor and no one was going under 50% of their hp and having all those lustrates avaliable saved a lot of people, ofcourse we didnt finish the fight cause some dps died after heart, but i dont know, i think scholars are fine right now, also, using eos like it should be helps a lot when people is stacked cause she has so little range

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Originally Posted by AishaK

Oh nice whm can solo heal a random fight. I never said whm's cant heal or dont have nice aoe heals just that in terms of progression and end game scholars are looking to outperform whm. All the aoe healing power in the world means nothing if there are no fights designed with a whm aoe specifically in mind. Otherwise its safer to bring along the superior single target healer with sufficient aoe pet healing

Seriously, might as well have brought up turn 2 enrage strat, see guys whm is fine, they can aoe heal lots!

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Well it's dumb to bring it up as a reason for sch/sch being better than sch/whm when whm can solo heal the fight. Sch/Sch takes much more coordination than sch/whm or whm/whm due to the cooldown of WD and the fact that many of schs abilities do not overlap. I'm not arguing against sch/sch I just think it could use a boost in this specific aspect. A lot of times playing with schs it feels like you're fighting each other when you each go to adloquium the tank and someone's galvanize is wasted or you each have to use succor multiple times because the healing aspect is pitiful and the shield is wasted.

And SCH's have solo healed Garuda EX. Titan is one of the few battles that plays to the WHM's strength. Garuda plays to SCH strengths. Hell paladin's have solo tanked T1 and T5 now. Do those battles alone define the strength of the class? No, but they do show off extreme cases where the class is powerful when pitted against their natural strengths.

T1 - almost entirely single target damage - SCH
T2 - actual strat single target - SCH
T2 Enrage - AoE recovery - WHM
T4 - Single target damage - SCH
T5 - Has a mix from what I've experienced/watched, some like SCH/WHM, others have told me complete it exclusively SCH/SCH

Garuda EX - Single target damage - SCH
Titan EX - AoE recovery - WHM
I'll hold any judgement on ifrit until I experience it myself.

Read up, I only pointed that out to dispel this myth that since sch/sch can do titan ex that magically makes sch/sch better than sch/whm. Let's also not pretend that garuda ex is harder than titan ex, not to mention whms have solo healed that too.

I understand you don't want a weakness with your class, but pushing to fill the only niche a WHM fills would turn a hurting class into an unused class. SCH's naturally fulfills the requirements of almost every single top tier battle this game has to offer already. My answer the the original post is still, no.

Bla Bla Bla Bla, all i see is theorycraft, nothing else.

SCH/WHM is still the best combination. Let me tell you why.

All those SCH/SCH is better end game theory doesn't work. You are counting a perfect scenario where everyone can dodge shit perfectly and with perfect connection/no lag. The tank is fully healed and that you and your team's comm is perfect. How many team can do that?

WHM/WHM is an overkill in AOE heal department but fall short if the tank get spike damage and they are no where near ready to swiftcast a cure II, not to mention they run out of mana too easily if they need to spam cure II.

So, stop debating why your <X> heals lower than <Y>. You will never get a buff without being nerf in another dept. Wanna know why? Because this game is about 8 man working as a team. If you wanna solo go 4man or play Mario.

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

Bla Bla Bla Bla, all i see is theorycraft, nothing else.

SCH/WHM is still the best combination. Let me tell you why.

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why would a WHM swiftcast Cure II ever? Swiftcast has already a 1 sec+ animation time, so you save 1.5 second and waste an important cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Squa

why would a WHM swiftcast Cure II ever? Swiftcast has already a 1 sec+ animation time, so you save 1.5 second and waste an important cooldown.

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1.5 Sec saves countless of life. Especially in Twintania fight. As a SCH, i basically spam my Physick + Embrace even when tank is at full health (knowing i cannot go OOM easily) cause your tank will go 100 to 10 in a sec. So 1.5 sec faster can either spell clear or wipe.

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Originally Posted by Splorch

*Tips Fedora to Velox*

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Fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by Velox

As it stands in CURRENT (and I stress that word) FFXIV, SCH/SCH is a superior combo to have due to utility.

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I don't doubt it, but personally, I'd take a WM with my scholar anyday over another scholar. I shield the group and keep the tank up while the WM keeps the group up. We both help each other depending on situation. ^^ And when WM is starting to run out of MP, I'll cover for him while he builds his MP back up and if I'm starting to run out with too much succor/addlo spam, he can cover for me, too. Atl, that's been my experience in my guild raid group. (Ty J, you're the best WM evur. ;_; )

(Besides it really annoys me in places like CT when there's two scholars and when there's not really much time to assign main healing targets or addlo turns/whatever. It's almost as annoying as tanks fighting over aggro.)

Well, i win my titan ex with 2 sch just fine

2SCHs can manage titan EX without a prob, as can WHM/WHM and WHM/SCH.

However, personally I feel with a good tank of course, WHM/SCH is better for titan EX, simply because WHMs its just easier for them to AOE heal simples, which means the SCH can use Selene which allows for a dps boost. You need the SCH because the mitigation in titan is very handy not mention lustrates on tank are great, plus our dps does help.

i just want eos to have more radious, that way WD will hit everyone or all other skills, im fine with my succor and my adlo, i wish i had more crit