"Need" should check ilevel

Kind of obnoxious to see a warrior axe drop from Ifrit only to see someone with dual haken take it over the guy using a GC weapon. Or seeing someone in AF2 snatch out a piece of CT gear over someone in darklight or AK gear "for their vanity set".

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Originally Posted by Sylari

Kind of obnoxious to see a warrior axe drop from Ifrit only to see someone with dual haken take it over the guy using a GC weapon. Or seeing someone in AF2 snatch out a piece of CT gear over someone in darklight or AK gear "for their vanity set".

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For the CT quote, SE even mentioned Vanity when they talked about it, so you're not going to get much help on that end. Some people place vanity higher than stats, they don't have any less right to the item.

What's next... Greed should check players job lvls so someone with a lvl 1 marauder cant greed over someone with a 45 war? It's just something you have to deal with

I understand the reasoning but it might feel like players with a high item level are being punished and make it very difficult for them to obtain any further loot. The players with a lower level can still gather tomes to increase theirs while loot remains random.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Some people place vanity higher than stats, they don't have any less right to the item.

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Right. So they can greed on it like everyone else. Rolling on an item you don't directly need to use for some other purpose is kind of what the whole need vs greed dichotomy supposedly means in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

I understand the reasoning but it might feel like players with a high item level are being punished and make it very difficult for them to obtain any further loot. The players with a lower level can still gather tomes to increase theirs while loot remains random.

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I don't really see how it's a punishment to say "Hey, maybe that guy who just hit 50 should get that level 60 weapon over the guy who will stick it on his retainer and never ever use it on any serious content".
[QUOTE=bardaboo;1781399]What's next... Greed should check players job lvls so someone with a lvl 1 marauder cant greed over someone with a 45 war?
[quote]
No, because that's a false equivocation. The whole point of greed is exactly for that

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It's just something you have to deal with

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That doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Yes its annoying yes it sucks I've lost rolls on things I could have used but its universally fair based off chance.
This though every fresh first timer with minimal gear can walk in and automatically get an item the over-geared player up to this point has been tirelessly farming for?
I happen to have my zenith weapon but have been doing moogle fights for a SMN book (along with titan HM) but i guess the countless hours I've put in don't matter anyways because I've continued to progress and improve my character?
but lets say they did now i queue up for GKM notice the other SMN is equipped with say just a GC weapon, I think well if it drops he wins automatically so >>open duty finder >>> leave.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

Right. So they can greed on it like everyone else. Rolling on an item you don't directly need to use for some other purpose is kind of what the whole need vs greed dichotomy supposedly means in the first place.

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Wrong. You're basically putting one person's need for stats over another person's need for vanity. If they can both need, they are free to do so. What you feel is more important, especially this not being a premade, doesn't apply.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Wrong. You're basically putting one person's need for stats over another person's need for vanity.

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Well yes, of course I am. One of the two is a tangible, physical benefit and barrier to progression and the other is a frivolous desire.

edit: I'm going to bed tonight, thank you all for your insight on the topic! Will check back later.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

Well yes, of course I am. One of the two is a tangible, physical benefit and barrier to progression and the other is a frivolous desire.

edit: I'm going to bed tonight, thank you all for your insight on the topic! Will check back later.

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Nah, because you only look at it from your point of view. You see the game for progression purposes. That doesn't mean everyone does, nor does it make YOU right. Both have a right to roll, period.

Most people in CT aren't there just to help random people get loot, they're there to get a particular item for themselves, even if it is just for vanity. What would be the point in even trying to get a complete set if you'll never win over someone who has a lower item level than you?

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Originally Posted by Espon

Most people in CT aren't there just to help random people get loot, they're there to get a particular item for themselves, even if it is just for vanity. What would be the point in even trying to get a complete set if you'll never win over someone who has a lower item level than you?

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He's trying to push his preferences on a DF group, something many before have tried to do. If it was a premade, these things can be agreed upon prior. But it's DF, his rules don't apply.

This is just the reality of queue and instanced based games. Ideally before you need for vanity you'd make sure no on really needs it.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Nah, because you only look at it from your point of view. You see the game for progression purposes. That doesn't mean everyone does, nor does it make YOU right. Both have a right to roll, period.

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Both people have an intrinsic right to the item because the game allows them to roll "Need" but obviously it's going to benefit the person who actually needs it more. If you accept that vanity is valid reason to need on things you have better equips we can say that anything is. What if the person will never use it for vanity but likes just having it in their inventory? What if they just want to stop the other player from getting it because they feel they don't deserve it? What if they roll a dice to decide if they roll on it or not? What if they have the same item and delete it simply to get it again? No matter how trivial the desire we can assign your argument and make hitting need never wrong. "Not everyone sees the game for progression, they might be playing for Completionism/Spite/Whimsy/Extreme Greed"

I'm a huge fan of vanity and I don't agree with the OP to implement some asinine system. However I don't agree with you either and I think if someone is rocking an ilvl 55 weapon you should defer to them. I could see a belt not being as big of a weapon for example and you can take it on a case by case basis, ask someone if they mind. However rolling against someone with a GC weapon for vanity is in bad taste, even if we can't call the cops about it. Just because you can click a button doesn't mean you should.

If this is true, everyone will go to those BOSS fight with the minimum gear requirements so they can "need" things, not good.

I have smn and blm, I want the body from CT from my smn, but my blm is much better geared so I do coil on blm for the extra dps. Should I be punished and not able to get the body for my smn, just because my blm has i90? Or should I be forced to do it on a job that im less effective on?

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Originally Posted by Daiiawn

I have smn and blm, I want the body from CT from my smn, but my blm is much better geared so I do coil on blm for the extra dps. Should I be punished and not able to get the body for my smn, just because my blm has i90? Or should I be forced to do it on a job that im less effective on?

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I agree with Daiiawn I do CT with my SCH with AF2 torso but i am looking the torso drop for my WHM.

If you really want to be able to set your need rules you run with a group of people you know and agree about looting rules. Otherwise the system with randoms is almost fine (be fast enough to pass at last loot in CT or you can get stuck with something you don't want :) )

What an odd idea - I can understand making rules like this within an FC, where it is to everyone's benefit to spread loot to players who need it. However, in a duty finder group every player is there as an individual, has played a part in obtaining loot, and should have a fair chance to get it. The Need/Greed split is there to ensure people who are playing a class get priority over those who might be looking to gear up a job they're not playing, and I think anything more than that would be absurd.

Vanity is a perfectly valid reason to want lesser equipment in a video game.

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Originally Posted by Meric

What an odd idea - I can understand making rules like this within an FC, where it is to everyone's benefit to spread loot to players who need it. However, in a duty finder group every player is there as an individual, has played a part in obtaining loot, and should have a fair chance to get it. The Need/Greed split is there to ensure people who are playing a class get priority over those who might be looking to gear up a job they're not playing, and I think anything more than that would be absurd.

Vanity is a perfectly valid reason to want lesser equipment in a video game.

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This was my main point. It was a DF group.

Anybody in party has right to lot the item. L2P

Let me translate the OP's point for you:

"I want all the loots for myself. If you have more gear than me, that means you are meant to carry me to victory and shorten my queue times."

You can also trade in items for GC seals so if I'm able to need on something I usually do. Sometimes people will mention they'd like it for an alt and I will let them have it but unless ya speak up no one knows.

Right now you're the player that's undergeared. Imagine instead if you were the player overgeared and you wanted a vanity item. Everytime you played there was someone undergeared compared to you.

Would you want to run the dungeon over and over having no chance to get the loot you wanted? What's fun about that? If you each run the dungeon once, then you should each have a crack at the item. Need gives priority to the class you play, so if you want gear for a specific class, then play as that class.

Also, if you're able complete the dungeon without that gear, then you obviously don't need that gear to complete the same dungeon again. You don't "need" that gear to run the dungeon any more than the player who rolls for vanity.

OP needs to get over being butthurt over an item. The geared player has every right to the same item as the undergeared player. Consider it payment for carrying them if you must. People have always collected items in MMO's, this is nothing new. If you win, you win, if you don't, then run it again and hope for a different outcome.

This is the generic answer I see a lot of people use;

Don't like people being mean, lotting gear they shouldn't be?? Make your own PT with LS or FC Mates. Problem. Solved. Or go play Skyrim Job, no people taking your loot in that game.

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Originally Posted by MarkisKyler

You can also trade in items for GC seals so if I'm able to need on something I usually do. Sometimes people will mention they'd like it for an alt and I will let them have it but unless ya speak up no one knows.

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You really don't think you should be using the greed function for this particular situation?

It's sort of silly that the person who actually needs to speak up and try to convince someone who wants it for vanity or seals to not roll need, while the idea of the person who wants it for vanity or seals speaking up and asking if it's okay is somehow abnormal. I really don't know what to say beside refer to my first post in this thread. You guys are missing out on some common etiquette and justifying it with sweeping arguments that basically justify anyone needing regardless of reason.

I don't agree with modifying the loot system, but geez, needing for seals? I don't even know what to say.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

Kind of obnoxious to see a warrior axe drop from Ifrit only to see someone with dual haken take it over the guy using a GC weapon. Or seeing someone in AF2 snatch out a piece of CT gear over someone in darklight or AK gear "for their vanity set".

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I have to say that I disagree with this. I'm in almost full myth, but I'm trying to collect the CT set for my level 50 Paladin. If you want guaranteed loot, I'd suggest running with your FC.

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

I have to say that I disagree with this. I'm in almost full myth, but I'm trying to collect the CT set for my level 50 Paladin. If you want guaranteed loot, I'd suggest running with your FC.

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I guess you're saying your Paladin is in full myth here? The idea that no rules of etiquette can be obeyed outside of a guild group is sort of ridiculous. Especially given the way CT works you'd see your vanity roll in due time if you deferred to people who actually needed the up, since you'll have groups with no Pally and groups with a Paladin who rolls on the belt and spends his roll. It's sort of silly but you're probably very rarely actually taking gear someone needs by rolling for vanity in your situation, so I don't even know what you're defending. The hypothetical right to do this?

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Originally Posted by Worm

I guess you're saying your Paladin is in full myth here? The idea that no rules of etiquette can be obeyed outside of a guild group is sort of ridiculous.

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He probably means his Warrior is in full myth that his Paladin cannot use so he's gearing Paladin up in CT gears. As far as etiquette goes, it's hard to enforce such a rule on players. Sure.... eventually that vanity piece will come up but who to say not another undergeared tank needs it? Would you still pass that time even if the next time that piece might come up is in a couple months giving how many loots are stuffed in a box? I see no problem with a person rolling Need for vanity myself since if that's important to them, who to say it's not as valid as the person gearing up for the content? I usually greed if I have better gears regardless of if the other tank can use it or not just to give everyone a chance to gear their jobs up but some people have a different opinion.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

He probably means his Warrior is in full myth that his Paladin cannot use so he's gearing Paladin up in CT gears.

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Except if he means this there's really no problem because he's either greeding on the gear or needing it on an alt who actually does need the gear. I'm not so far gone to suggest people apply mains>alts to duty finder raids but mains>seals or mains>vanity, yes, I think that. I just figured he wouldn't be in such a rush to disprove the OP that he provided an example that really no one would have a problem with.

With regards to the rest of your post, I just generally disagree, I comprehend the arguments but I think if you want the gear for vanity or any other trivial purpose then you should defer. Also I don't want to mince about what's trivial and not. There's a primary purpose for gear, and that's to increase stats. I love vanity but I truly believe all uses for gear are secondary to increasing someone's stats, especially in a tiered system where there is an overt amount of focus placed on stats. If you want to lower the ilvl requirement on your next PF group or not get upset if you die a few times on Haukke HM then you're at least being consistent. Though it just seems like there are a lot of people who expect people to be geared and I imagine they overlap with the people needing Ifrit Axes because they look cool.

Once you place your vanity over someone's gear you lose all right to expect people to be geared.

edit: I will put in the caveat that most of this gear isn't anything near BiS, CT loot can be replaced by badge gear (Right?) and HM primal weapons aren't better than relics (Right?), so it's not like I think it's some grand insult to need on this gear, however I do generally disagree with it on principle. I don't think it's a horrible thing to do or that the loot system needs to be rewritten to stop it, but I'm not going to say that person has an equal right to the gear, because I don't think they do.

Why is wanting to collect the primal drops not valid? I have every mog/ifrit/garuda/ifrit weapon for every job. I played all of these fights several times on multiple classes so I could get need rolls. I also have every relic. But I show up and do my part get the win to get the same chance at loot as anyone else. Just because I want it for a different reason doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed my chance to get it.

Also its both unfair and kind of insulting to say these other reasons are "trivial." To be frank, many would say most player who are currently at a state where a primal weapon is a upgerade, this late in the patch cycle... are probably awful or casuals. (Or someone who will one day be great and just started). Some would argue that loot going to a "bad" is a "waste" and thus their "need" is "trivial." If we all show up to the fight and help earn the win, we all get a chance i think.

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Originally Posted by Arcaloid

If this is true, everyone will go to those BOSS fight with the minimum gear requirements so they can "need" things, not good.

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This, people will game the system as much as possible to get what they want. You'd see people in the absolute minimum to get the "need". Doesn't matter if they would make the fight harder, if it gives them a chance at it, they'd do it.

they participated in clearing the content. if they are of the correct class to need, they should beable to need. simple.

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Originally Posted by PiedPiper

Also its both unfair and kind of insulting to say these other reasons are "trivial." To be frank, many would say most player who are currently at a state where a primal weapon is a upgerade, this late in the patch cycle... are probably awful or casuals. (Or someone who will one day be great and just started). Some would argue that loot going to a "bad" is a "waste" and thus their "need" is "trivial." If we all show up to the fight and help earn the win, we all get a chance i think.

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I think you're reading a too little into it. When I say trivial purpose I mean non-game purpose. Rolling on gear to turn it into seals is the same thing is vanity and that's the same thing as leaving it to rot on your retainer because they are non-stat purposes, that's all. Not to mention it's kind of funny to have you complain about players who need this gear being awful when you'd probably make the same complaint about someone rocking their GC weapon.

If you really want to get into it I'd say Vanity>Bag>Seals but your argument basically justifies someone needing to turn something into seals. "What if they really need the seals? They have an equal right to roll need, we all downed the boss and we deserve the right to roll!" If you're okay with that, fine. I'm not OK with it, I think if someone can increase their numbers in a game which is obsessed with the highest possible numbers they should. I think it's wrong to deny someone their slightly higher numbers or place your vanity gear (or seals) as just as important as their slightly higher numbers.

Obviously taking gear someone can use as an upgrade (no matter how temporary) and taking it and turning it into GC Seals is wrong, if you don't think so whatever. But if you think that's not a nice thing to do then we have to accept there is a general etiquette surrounding loot and that the NEED button has different meaning than the GREED button. So if we accept there is some sort of loot etiquette well then we can expand that etiquette to decide when it is acceptable or not acceptable to roll on something and discuss than with people in the group. It's obviously a superior way to act than silently needing everything and leaving groups before someone can inspect you to object.

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Originally Posted by Worm

stuff

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Someone who can need the item can need it for a reason. They contributed to the fight just as much (if not more) than the less geared player and are the main class for the dropped item. If you want to make special looting rules, that's what pre-mades are for.

If it's a pug or duty finder party, you have no right to say what I can and cannot roll on based on my gear. Would you prefer those full i90 people come in with a GC weapon to the basic primals just to satisfy you? It's strictly opinion and in the eye of the beholder whether stats > vanity or stats > seals. We all play the game different and one isn't higher than the other.

Everything being stated by you is your moral opinions trying to be made to sound like fact.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Everything being stated by you is your moral opinions trying to be made to sound like fact.

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Look I don't know what to tell you, I accept mealtime etiquette exists even if I don't know where to put the forks and spoons relative to my plate and as bad as my manners are I still know I shouldn't eat with my hands. It's just unfortunate to see people throw out these proto-nihilist justifications, if you think it's fine to roll on a piece of gear someone needs just to turn it into seals hey fine, whatever. But it's simply not a defensible view, obviously those seals are so much less valuable to that player than the gear to the player who needs it, no Beholder Eyes about it. That might be why it feels like I'm 'making my opinions sound like fact' since they're defensible views which are consistent?

Also, If everyone came into a HM Primal fight with GC weapons, yeah it'd probably be fine, those fights are about knowledge, not gear. I think I'm done here, I just keep repeating myself and nothing can penetrate this moral relativism people are using to justify this behavior. If in the end you're fine rolling on that gear for those reasons, then I guess it's okay, but I personally disagree.

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Originally Posted by Worm

I guess you're saying your Paladin is in full myth here? The idea that no rules of etiquette can be obeyed outside of a guild group is sort of ridiculous. Especially given the way CT works you'd see your vanity roll in due time if you deferred to people who actually needed the up, since you'll have groups with no Pally and groups with a Paladin who rolls on the belt and spends his roll. It's sort of silly but you're probably very rarely actually taking gear someone needs by rolling for vanity in your situation, so I don't even know what you're defending. The hypothetical right to do this?

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No, my Warrior is in almost full myth and I first started CT to get my Paladin gear. My Paladin now has three pieces and his relic, so I mostly tank CT with him now, but the point is, it was either run CT as an under geared Paladin or run with my Warrior, who didn't need most of the gear.

So, I'm defending the fact that I won the CT chest piece on my Warrior, who at the time had a myth chest piece. I didn't do it for vanity so much as I was trying to gear one of my other jobs due to all of my myth being spent on my Warrior. Also, the thread title says that need rolls need an ilvl requirement. I took that to mean that people who out gear the drop shouldn't be able to need on it. And again, I disagree.

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Originally Posted by Worm

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Stating that you think something is morally wrong and that something IS morally wrong are two very different things. I don't think anyone would have an issue with anything you said if you stated everything was simply opinion and wasn't presented as facts.

And you disagree? Okay, cool. Duly noted.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Also, If everyone came into a HM Primal fight with GC weapons, yeah it'd probably be fine, those fights are about knowledge, not gear. .

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This statement contradicts everything you've been arguing. So I'm full i90 with a relic.. but if I switch my relic to a GC weapon before entering the fight, it's then okay to roll need on the weapon? What's the difference besides the i90 weapon actually helping us beat the fight easier.

In addition, titan HM is somewhat about gear. DPS check for heart break and HP check for stops if the fight lasts a long time (which it will if everyone had on GC weapons). Healers can time medica/succor perfect and it won't matter if you have 2800 hp. Same with a tank being undergeared and dying to a mountain buster due to terrible hp (regardless of SS or pre heals).

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

No, my Warrior is in almost full myth and I first started CT to get my Paladin gear. My Paladin now has three pieces and his relic, so I mostly tank CT with him now, but the point is, it was either run CT as an under geared Paladin or run with my Warrior, who didn't need most of the gear.

So, I'm defending the fact that I won the CT chest piece on my Warrior, who at the time had a myth chest piece. I didn't do it for vanity so much as I was trying to gear one of my other jobs due to all of my myth being spent on my Warrior.

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Oh I'm just mistaken about how CT's tank pieces work. Anyway I want to restate that I don't think it's very terribly bad in CT or HM Primals since there are reasonably easy to obtain alternatives, except the relic which can be pretty frustrating depending on your situation. Though I just disagree with the idea that all reasons for hitting need are created equal, I don't.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

Stating that you think something is morally wrong and that something IS morally wrong are two very different things. I don't think anyone would have an issue with anything you said if you stated everything was simply opinion and wasn't presented as facts.

And you disagree? Okay, cool. Duly noted.

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Eh do I really have to prefix all opinion with IMO? Isn't it enough I'm not on a mountaintop with two tablets? This is going to sound egotistical, but I mean it when I say I think it just comes off like I'm stating facts simply because my arguments are good. I have this opinion for reasons, and I state my reasons. Maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier in the thread but "we can't call the cops" was meant to state that I didn't think there was some universal moral law you're violating with this behavior.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

This statement contradicts everything you've been arguing. So I'm full i90 with a relic.. but if I switch my relic to a GC weapon before entering the fight, it's then okay to roll need on the weapon? What's the difference besides the i90 weapon actually helping us beat the fight easier.

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It wouldn't be okay because you don't need it. If you deleted your relic and couldn't recover it? You're taking these examples to their breaking points. I don't know what to tell you, you come out for me stating my opinion as fact, then you try to poke logical inconsistencies to prove my opinion doesn't meet factual standards, who's contradicting themselves again? I can't tell.

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Originally Posted by Worm

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I didn't say that was my opinion, I aws just pointing out that it is another way of seeing it.

And, if someone wants to farm GC seals for some reason, such as switching alliance or getting barding, and they chose to farm primals to do it.... I mean its what they need. They are putting in the same effort to get what they have decided they want. Just because you want it doesn't mean they don't.

I think farming primals to get GC seals is a waste of time and pretty inefficient, but if that's how someone wants to play, its how they want to play.

If I want to farm all the weapons to put on weapon racks in a fc house, then its what I want to do.

Both of these aren't "non-game" purposes. Its all in game.

If a group forms with explicit loot rules then you follow them.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Though I just disagree with the idea that all reasons for hitting need are created equal, I don't.

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The only time I normally need for vanity is when I'm specifically trying to win certain pieces. For instance, I want the Foestrikers set on my Bard. From level 15 to 21, I've been spamming the first three dungeons and I've won all but the gloves. Technically, a level 15 Monk could use the gloves more than my level 21 Bard, but if they drop, I'm needing. If the other person wins, great. This is the same with the primals. If I'm trying to get the Garuda sword for vanity on my Paladin, I'm not going to pass just because there's a Paladin in the group with a GC weapon. Otherwise, other than to help FC mates, what's the point in ever doing these fights again?

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Originally Posted by Worm

It wouldn't be okay because you don't need it. If you deleted your relic and couldn't recover it? You're taking these examples to their breaking points. I don't know what to tell you, you come out for me stating my opinion as fact, then you try to poke logical inconsistencies to prove my opinion doesn't meet factual standards, who's contradicting themselves again? I can't tell.

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My reply was based on what YOU said. When I asked if a full i90 switched to GC for the fight, you stated that would be acceptable. It didn't make sense why you would find that acceptable, or maybe you just misread or understood what I initially asked.