Extreme Garuda MELEE Woes

Getting sick and tired of this, SE.
http://i.imgur.com/2ZAFjXQ.jpg

Fifth or sixth queue in a row people autoleave the moment they see melee dps on this fight.

Please for the love of god fix this.

Haha virtually impossible, just take out suprana first.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Haha virtually impossible, just take out suprana first.

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Thats what I try to say. But I barely get that typed halfway before a tank leaves.

Stop duty findering garuda ex. Just make a team from your server. The people wo duty finder it either

A. Want practice because they just unlocked it and want to see how its like.
or
B. Cant get into one of the partys on their own server.

duty findering something like that is asking to fail.

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Originally Posted by o3o

Stop duty findering garuda ex. Just make a team from your server. The people wo duty finder it either

A. Want practice because they just unlocked it and want to see how its like.
or
B. Cant get into one of the partys on their own server.

duty findering something like that is asking to fail.

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Parties on my own server won't take melee. Nearly every party finder has ranged classes only selected. I can kill it with my FC as melee just fine, but I'm having a hard time getting them to actually log on to work on Twintania and the other extreme fights.

Problem with Party Finder for content is everyone wants only over geared players that know the fight. It's like fail safe only.

Yeah i know its rough for melee. Tried making your own party?

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Originally Posted by o3o

Yeah i know its rough for melee. Tried making your own party?

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Tried. People accept the invite. I've gotten the response, "Do you have a ranged class to play?" and "Sorry, can't do this with melee" and they leave. It is honestly truly insane that SE decided to make a patch that 'helps' melee do better in fights and say they don't make fights that make it overly difficult for melee, then pull a stunt like 5k-6k damage AOEs in melee range.

u gotta be kidding me, that garuda ex is so damn easy done by melees!

Garuda ex is a joke for melees, Ifrit ex on the other hand is really annoying for melees. >_>;

Its just people just see melee as unsafe and want to completely eliminate the risk.
kinda sucks how melee get one shot by WW even though its not to hard to dodge.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Garuda ex is a joke for melees, Ifrit ex on the other hand is really annoying for melees. >_>;

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I'd say it's annoying for the healers, if they're worth their salt they position around you, not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

u gotta be kidding me, that garuda ex is so damn easy done by melees!

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It really is. Kill Chirada first, if your group is fast wait till Garuda Wicked Wheels to jump/dash in. Burn as normal, gtfo after Suparna casts friction. Collect Loot. Bonus points if you're geared and can buff up to eat the wheel.

SE have never been good at balancing ranged and casting dps with melee dps.

In the early to mid years of XI, Rangers and BLMs were the only DPS classes that were considered worthy of spots in Alliances.
Rather than addressing the flaws with Melee DPS such as DRGs, MNKs, DRKs and sometimes WARs, SE's first thought was to nerf Ranged DPS and establish diminishing returns for same elemental magic.

Swoosh SE. The problem was that Melee DPS were on the front lines and taking relatively more DMG than their ranged counterparts, which taxed the MP and stress levels of the healers, (RDMs and WHMs). It was seen as an annoyance and wasn't in fact about dmg output, but more about less headache for the healers.
EDIT:
While the situation in XI eventually reversed itself(BLMs and RNGs becoming rather inferior to pure melee dps such as WARs/DRKs/SAMs/MNKs and even THFs), SE again proved itself incapable of addressing the issue, where the final solution was to boost melee dps so far above ranged and casters' dps, that alliances and parties favored them now. Thus leaving Rangers and BLMs out in the cold on 90% of the content. Those who remember the horror stories of BLMs soloing their exp or were one of them,will be able to relate.

I fear we will now have a similar situation in XV, more than a decade later.
Parties and Alliances will always favor the easiest route to a goal; the path of least resistance.
While SMNs, BLMs and BRDs require the least amount of upkeep, they are also on par with melee dps in terms of dmg output.

SE have already increased Melee DPS (DRG and MNK in 2.1) in an attempt to address this issue. But again, they failed to understand what the core issue was. Melee will always have to dodge more than ranged/caster dps, and their dps AND sustainability will be effected by such.
WHMs and Healers tend to get rather lazy and passive and prefer a class that requires less healing from them. That's just how healing becomes in an MMO after doing it for hours on end, day after day, for months.

There are several solutions to this problem. 1 is make being on the front lines near a tank less of an issue. You could do this by giving tanks more abilities or passive traits/auras that grant all surrounding members of the PT a increased defense % or a flat -damage taken%.

Suddenly the playing field is even. This is just one possible solution. You wouldn't want to give the Melee DPS their own DMG reduction abilities or traits, because then you would render tanks obsolete. (2008sh-2012 Tanks were worthless in XI. DPS classes became the tanks. SE gave up and never really tried to fix their own mechanics again)

There are also several ways to make healing a fun job/role. SE just need to think outside the box. What if WHM and SCHs were rewarded for timely heals by their healing causing an additional effect on the enemy? WHMs could compete for DPS numbers and have something to work towards. You wouldn't want it to be their main utility, but just enough to keep them motivated to heal and heal well.

I believe the Japanese players have a tactic of using melee DPS as a third tank, to tank Chirada. The off-tank grabs Suparna, and main tank focuses on Garuda + Spiny Plume I believe.

Can be done, people simply don't deviate from the "most optimal" tactic. Just like how Coil parties refuse to not run 2 bards.

I wonder how much longer until people catch on that it's easier to do it like the HM.

The sisters can be tanked by any class. I've tanked it as WHM, seen others tank it as BRD and even BLM. DRG and MNK would have NO issue at all tanking them providing their healers are worth anything which unfortunately, in most cases, are not.

do u know if you stack as in stack with tanks, it reduce the damage of wicked wheel?

meh just casuals who refuse to learn an easy fight.

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Originally Posted by MidBoss

It really is. Kill Chirada first, if your group is fast wait till Garuda Wicked Wheels to jump/dash in. Burn as normal, gtfo after Suparna casts friction. Collect Loot. Bonus points if you're geared and can buff up to eat the wheel.

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inb4 ppl begin to only kill chirada first for melee group. Our group kill surpana first and our DRG melee have no problem with dodge the WW

"Virtually impossible." I loled, and it honestly looks like all 3 melee were geared enough.

...What particular disadvantage is there for melee DPS? For the first stage with the sisters, I've always done it where the melee stick with OT who takes the sisters on one at a time so there is no risk of getting hit by Garuda's WW and being one-shotted. In the second, recurring part with the tornadoes, JP groups like to do with DPS tanking one sister and splitting the damage from Downburst and the tanks splitting the other two, but in any case, MNK can transverse the tornadoes no problem and I've seen a DRG do it as well (I have no idea how though) so there is no reason why they can't stick with OT in this phase as well.

The real problem is that a common strategy seems to be putting melee with Garuda in the tornado phases. This is a terrible idea and I have no idea how it became common.

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Originally Posted by juniglee

I believe the Japanese players have a tactic of using melee DPS as a third tank, to tank Chirada. The off-tank grabs Suparna, and main tank focuses on Garuda + Spiny Plume I believe.

Can be done, people simply don't deviate from the "most optimal" tactic. Just like how Coil parties refuse to not run 2 bards.

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This.

It makes the fight relatively simple and it's incredibly melee-friendly as long as MT grabs Garuda back from the OT after Suparna is dead. It's also a lot less stressful on healers. Melee can use Spineshatter dive or Shoulder tackle to get by tornadoes. We usually have our BRD tank Chirada as they can grab initial aggro really quickly.

Just make sure that all the DPS stack up together so that Downburst does low damage (it splits, as someone let me know when I asked about it in a thread earlier this week) and that they move out of the way of Slipstream.

there is a 3s window where the giant tornados on the last phase will disappear for a moment and u can simply run through it (not using sprint)

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Originally Posted by Estellios

This.
Melee can use Spineshatter dive or Shoulder tackle to get by tornadoes.

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Spineshatter Dive, there we go. That's how the DRG are doing it. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Garuda ex is a joke for melees, Ifrit ex on the other hand is really annoying for melees. >_>;

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I still can't understand the timing for Whicked wheel on garuda EX in the tornado phase, while on Ifrit EX its really hard to do a single mistake as a melee ~ ~

I've tanked this many a time, and I don't see these mythic Wicked Wheels as Off tank. I take chirada first and then Suprana, and never see Melees take damage sept for random frinctions, tornadoes, or slipstreams.

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

I still can't understand the timing for Whicked wheel on garuda EX in the tornado phase, while on Ifrit EX its really hard to do a single mistake as a melee ~ ~

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Seems to be affected by their health. After a certain time passed, they start Friction, and at a certain % of health, Downburst and Wicked Wheel. So if you bring the health of one of them low while the Friction is casting, Suparna will cancel and go straight to Wicked Wheel, same with Chirada and her Downburst....

That's what I think. I noticed that the "Friction canceling" happens more frequently in farm groups focusing on one harpy.

I've completed it with melees, but as a healer they definitely make my job harder. Getting hit by wicked wheels and running back an forth through tornadoes just makes them more of a hindrance than a help. I know it's not their fault, it's the way the fight was designed.

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Originally Posted by Seirra_Lanzce

do u know if you stack as in stack with tanks, it reduce the damage of wicked wheel?

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You mean damage is split between the number of targets struck? Like Thane Korth'azz's meteor or our own sabotender's 500 needles? Interesting...

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Originally Posted by Royze

It was seen as an annoyance and wasn't in fact about dmg output, but more about less headache for the healers.

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This is also why the playerbase greatly favored Utsusemi, as MP was a rare commodity and not having to spend it curing DPS was just a benefot for the whole alliance.

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I fear we will now have a similar situation in XV, more than a decade later.
Parties and Alliances will always favor the easiest route to a goal; the path of least resistance.

While SMNs, BLMs and BRDs require the least amount of upkeep, they are also on par with melee dps in terms of dmg output.

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On your first paragraph, considering the lead battle designer is the same guy that did it in FFXI, are you that surprised at history repeating itself? >.>

Single-boss focus is in part responsible for the damage. One of the ways multiple classes in a group comp became acceptable in WoW was due to bosses having different mechanics within the same instance. Using Ulduar as an example, you had an encounter where classes with positional requirements were penalized while everyone had to kite random lazers (Kologarn), followed by a boss that sort of favored melee due to everyone having to stack on the tank (Auriaya), followed by a boss that penalized melee in one phase and penalized ranged in another (Mimiron), followed by a boss where you needed both melee and ranged to do the job (Freya), a boss that penalized spellcasters (Vezzax) and so on. You couldn't pull any of this "ranged only" BS because you needed people of the multiple roles and sub-roles in order to be able to down bosses and clear the raid. If The Howling Eye was a raid with 5 bosses, 4 boss-level Ixxal before getting to Garuda, and each encounter favored ranged, melee, casters, physical DPS and so on per boss, you would be encouraged to bring a balanced comp. The only snag is that such design would NOT favor duty finder.

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WHMs and Healers tend to get rather lazy and passive and prefer a class that requires less healing from them. That's just how healing becomes in an MMO after doing it for hours on end, day after day, for months.

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This is a mentality carried over from FFXI. Healers never bitched about healing targets that were not worthy of them spending mana to do so in WoW, for example.

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You could do this by giving tanks more abilities or passive traits/auras that grant all surrounding members of the PT a increased defense % or a flat -damage taken%.

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This is not needed. What's needed is for boss design to not favor ranged-only and to include variety. Primal fights are admittedly screwed because they are single-boss raids and duty finder kind of puts a wrench on encouraging balanced comps.

Melee is not impossible at all. It's just the general public that PLAYS melee sucks at avoiding wicked wheel and thus we lead to this.

On the other hand, SE can't make content which is easier for melee while maintaining the same difficulty for range. It's usually, melee easy, range super easy; melee hard, range medium; melee SUPER HARD; range hard. One way is to buff the actual melee class defensively but that would make them OP because they would become OFF OFF tanks lol.

So ultimately, I think the best solution is, buff melee dps even more to trade off the risk. Melee at the moment is still gimped in half the new content available. Perhaps something like a damage increase over time the longer you stay near a boss?

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Originally Posted by TeganLaron

I've completed it with melees, but as a healer they definitely make my job harder. Getting hit by wicked wheels and running back an forth through tornadoes just makes them more of a hindrance than a help. I know it's not their fault, it's the way the fight was designed.

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Is what people have been saying on the previous post, it's not that you can't complete this for melee. Is that as melee you need to know to avoid wicked wheel, also there are different tactics that make it easier for a melee heavy group. There are multiple ways of completing this, some are easier than others on melee too.

The problem is generally that melee players are too busy trying to do more damage instead of concerning to move out of the way and dodge abilities. Wicked wheel is dodgable. Tanks can help also with cover. Anyway.

As it was said before, is just those players being bad. (not the ones in the picture)

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Originally Posted by Lafiele

Melee is not impossible at all. It's just the general public that PLAYS melee sucks at avoiding wicked wheel and thus we lead to this.

On the other hand, SE can't make content which is easier for melee while maintaining the same difficulty for range. It's usually, melee easy, range super easy; melee hard, range medium; melee SUPER HARD; range hard. One way is to buff the actual melee class defensively but that would make them OP because they would become OFF OFF tanks lol.

So ultimately, I think the best solution is, buff melee dps even more to trade off the risk. Melee at the moment is still gimped in half the new content available. Perhaps something like a damage increase over time the longer you stay near a boss?

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I was gonna like your comment but damn, it's not true that it's always harder on melee than on range. So off. While some mechanics are easier for range than for melee, it also goes the other way around. Some of these fights are just as easy for both, or harder on one than the other.

No fight in this game makes it impossible for either job. It's just the players playing those jobs.

Is like those idiots saying "Titan is impossible for casters, too much movement! Take melee!" Or then the ones that say "melee sucks on titan, no melee allowed" (there's a thread about this one). Both are just as wrong, Any job can perform well. While some fights may have better affinity to specific jobs, it doesn't mean it renders the others useless. on the contrary, difference is not that noticeable most of the time. (You can complete T4 with only melee btw too, not casters cause well soldiers just can't be killed by casters QQ)

If you gather around good players, you'll notice these are mostly myths or just specific cases that involve less skilled players.

If you chose melee you should be prepared to move to reach your target, just as if you chose to play a caster, be ready to interrupt your spells to dodge enemy attacks. That's just the way it is, think about it more deeply before choosing what class you're gonna play.

(btw this is not a personal attack, just continued from what you said to expand on the myth that it's harder for melee than ranged, different does not imply harder)

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

Tanks can help also with cover. Anyway.

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Isn't this suicide?

If you have 3 melee, you can't take out suparna first.. lol.. Unless your melee realllly suck and your 1 ranged is Insanely AWESOME.

Or better yet... Don't que for Garuda EX in the Duty Finder.... Use the freagin party finder.

Melee dps gets boned in this fight no matter which way you look at it, only naysayers are r-dps or basement dweller mnk/drgs who have mastered the fight to he point of being able to dodge WW the second it comes out and getting back without screwing up their rotations.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Isn't this suicide?

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Honestly I is not sure, but our tanks do it, I do however know for sure that wicked wheel is predictable and suprana should die fast regardless. Tornados are a joke to dodge and get past through.

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Originally Posted by Narcissus

Melee dps gets boned in this fight no matter which way you look at it, only naysayers are r-dps or basement dweller mnk/drgs who have mastered the fight to he point of being able to dodge WW the second it comes out and getting back without screwing up their rotations.

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What's not to like about dakr moisty basements, with crawling spiders everywhere and some other dark creatures?

Seriously... Why you hate on dem basements.

The trick to dodge wicked wheel is not a fast reaction but instead a good prediction. It comes tied to another spell (can't remember which <_> Sorry)

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Originally Posted by Yagrush

I've tanked this many a time, and I don't see these mythic Wicked Wheels as Off tank. I take chirada first and then Suprana, and never see Melees take damage sept for random frinctions, tornadoes, or slipstreams.

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That's probably because Suprana and Garuda use WW, not Chirada. And I'm not entirely sure, but I haven't seen Suprana use WW after Chirada is dead.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

That's probably because Suprana and Garuda use WW, not Chirada. And I'm not entirely sure, but I haven't seen Suprana use WW after Chirada is dead.

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They do... that's what all the hassle is about, generally people kill chirada and when melee moves onto suprana they get face melted by double WW.

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

The trick to dodge wicked wheel is not a fast reaction but instead a good prediction. It comes tied to another spell (can't remember which <_> Sorry)

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Slipstream>Friction>Downburst>Wicked Wheel, if I remember correctly

There is multiple ways to do this fight without melee getting hit by double wicked wheel at all. It is sad on multiple levels people can't think outside the box once they see a guide/method that lets them apply their face to the keyboard and roll around. It is really telling of all parties that this is happening, and I hope people start spreading *correct methods* of doing Garuda EX rather then just take the no brain method and exclude members.

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Originally Posted by NeruMew

They do... that's what all the hassle is about, generally people kill chirada and when melee moves onto suprana they get face melted by double WW.

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The last few times I tried (as DRG) OT pulled Suprana away from Garuda (after downing Chirada), I was fully expecting WW but never saw it, this was at least 3 or 4 times in a row we tried it, and I didn't see it once. I don't know if it's random, or has to do with their relative distance from the other, all I know was I kept moving back to the center to avoid it and it never happened.