The state of monks in PvP

I believe this class to be at the bottom of the totem pole currently in PvP. Now before you tell me I need to l2p or whatever, I will say it is not by a large margin, and I believe a few minor tweaks for PvP are necessary in order to balance it. First off, I'm going to start with how this class is not designed too well for PvP at this moment.


-A lot of our moves require a lot of setup and time when PvP arena in this game revolves around bursting a target down either at the start or during a hard swap. Some examples of this are having to use 3 GCDs without perfect balance to actually be able to apply our Dragon Kick debuff. Having to accumulate 3 stacks of Greased Lightning, which without Perfect Balance is likely to fall off because of our poor mobility. Which brings me to my next point...


-Mobility : Our mobility is pretty bad compared to some of the other melee classes. Shoulder Tackle in itself and the cooldown on it is good, however it is our only gap closer and also gives a short stun which will causes our teammates stun to DR. So basically if we want to close the gap and use this we're going to DR stuns for our team. We have no ranged attacks at all so if we're being kited we have no source of damage that we can output. In otherwords being kited completely shuts us down, and we're actually pretty easy to kite, too, especially by a Summoner.


-The cooldown on Perfect Balance is too long for this PvP metagame, this our only source of "on demand burst". Either lower the cooldown on this or give us some other way to burst a target sometimes.


-Positional requirements on our moves as a melee DPS. The likelihood of hitting Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick, or Snap Punch from the side in PvP is near impossible on any target that is moving, cutting our effective DPS by a decent margin. Unlike Dragoon, we have no ability that can waive the positional requirements of our moves.


So what do we bring to our team then? I'd say the main reason to bring a Monk would be dispel. Our PvP abilities are also pretty good, the pacify and the spell speed reduction, however I think we need more of our PvP abilities to stand a chance than any other class does.


In otherwords, we're a sustained damage class in a metagame that revolves around burst. Our mobility is also pretty poor. We have one good opportunity to decide the game. That is when we have popped Sprint + Invigorate + Fetter Ward + Perfect Balance to be able to unleash our "burst" without having to worry about being CCed or kited. After that we have our trinket(Purify) for one more out. If we haven't killed 1-2 members of their team by then, the game is usually over as we will be kited from this point on with little way to do any damage whatsoever. Perfect Balance is on our big damage source and it is on a 3 minute cooldown. So here's my suggestions then in order to make monk more viable for PvP.



Suggested Changes

-Give Monks a ranged ability that they can use, Chi Blast, in order to fix our mobility issue.

Chi Blast: Unleashes a ball of chi at the target, dealing 180 potency and applying a 10% heavy for 10 seconds. 30 second cooldown.
Rank 1: Lowers cooldown to 20 seconds.
Rank 2: Increases the heavy duration to 15 seconds.
Rank 3: Increases the heavy to 20%.

Note that this would of course be cleansable.

-Give a PvP ability that lowers the cooldown of Perfect Balance to 90 seconds.

Meditation: Lowers the cooldown of Perfect Balance to 90 seconds(Passive)

Perhaps some may believe that 90 seconds is too short for this ability, but waiting 3 minutes for our only source of burst in a burst reliant metagame is imo, too long.


-Remove the stun effect on Shoulder Tackle so that it does not DR stuns for our team, please.


So those would be my 3 minor tweaks for monks to PvP. What is your opinion on Monks currently in PvP. Where would you rank them? What would you change about them, if anything?

Straigus Reyist wrecks face as MNK in arena as is. He rivals BRD/MRD damage if the people hes wrecking aren't jumpers. Not only that, but he applies his debuffs/buffs so efficiently and effectively on the fly. He has really good reaction. Once they fix the jump bug caster dds are in for a world of hurt. I have yet to see anyone play monk like him in PVE or PVP.. like literally the only decent one I've seen through my 1,500~ matches so far.

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Originally Posted by Ryuuji

Straigus Reyist wrecks face as MNK in arena as is. He rivals BRD/MRD damage if the people hes wrecking aren't jumpers. Not only that, but he applies his debuffs/buffs so efficiently and effectively on the fly. He has really good reaction. Once they fix the jump bug caster dds are in for a world of hurt. I have yet to see anyone play monk like him in PVE or PVP.. like literally the only decent one I've seen through my 1,500~ matches so far.

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Yeah, I don't think even comparing MRD or BRD are comparable. I've been grouping with him a lot, with our BRD friend. We'll go in and he will smash someones face so fast. The fight usually ends quick, and he will sometimes double my damage as MRD.

So I take this to mean you both believe monks are not at the bottom in PvP? Even if their damage is good(mostly sustained damage btw). It doesn't change too much if you cannot hit the target because your mobility is poor. Mobility is the greatest issue that I have on monk. If the other team doesn't have one of their teammates dead by after I've used fetter ward/purify/perfect balance, there's like a 50% chance I'll probably get kited the rest of the match, and we will eventually lose.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

So I take this to mean you both believe monks are not at the bottom in PvP? Even if their damage is good(mostly sustained damage btw). It doesn't change too much if you cannot hit the target because your mobility is poor. Mobility is the greatest issue that I have on monk. If the other team doesn't have one of their teammates dead by after I've used fetter ward/purify/perfect balance, there's like a 50% chance I'll probably get kited the rest of the match, and we will eventually lose.

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Fists of Wind, Sprint, Shoulder Tackle. You have more options than I do as MRD. I get kited plenty, especially against bunny hoppers. DRG gets jumps, but they have long cooldowns, except for the skill "Jump" which returns you to your starting position. Once SMN damage is brought down, hopefully the other changes being made are aimed at CC effects like Sleep and the heavy from Disease. Then we'll be good.

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Originally Posted by Rawkzor

Fists of Wind, Sprint, Shoulder Tackle. You have more options than I do as MRD. I get kited plenty, especially against bunny hoppers. DRG gets jumps, but they have long cooldowns, except for the skill "Jump" which returns you to your starting position. Once SMN damage is brought down, hopefully the other changes being made are aimed at CC effects like Sleep and the heavy from Disease. Then we'll be good.

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Fists of Wind and Sprint actually are both useless against anyone who can cast Miasma on me. I cannot keep up with someone who is running normal speed if I have Miasma on me(This is with sprint and fists of wind up, by the way.) So Shoulder Tackle is all I have to keep up at that point. So I use that, and then within 5 seconds they are already out of my range again, because Miasma is on me.

same for all melee miasm ftl
but monk have every thing better crits rate , faster hits , disarm , anti-sprint , reduce casting speed , charge , run speed.
monk are the best melee class atm
90 pvpgear i am destroyed by any good monk 70pvpgear they hits so hard and fast,

/wave at drunge ironfist best monk i have seen ps: stop focusing me :mad:

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Originally Posted by Rawkzor

Fists of Wind, Sprint, Shoulder Tackle. You have more options than I do as MRD. I get kited plenty, especially against bunny hoppers. DRG gets jumps, but they have long cooldowns, except for the skill "Jump" which returns you to your starting position. Once SMN damage is brought down, hopefully the other changes being made are aimed at CC effects like Sleep and the heavy from Disease. Then we'll be good.

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-It's not really fair to compare MNK to MRD, as one is a dedicated dps and the other is a tank.
-Fist of Wind only makes a difference when both players have equal move speed (i.e. both heavy [same%] or neither heavy)
-DRG Jumps (plural) do have a longer cooldown than Shoulder Tackle, but their Jumps are also a significant source of damage which fits their playstyle (and the current meta). They also have a ranged poke.

To the OP:

I agree that mobility is the major issue facing MNK. Positional attack bonuses and GLx3 each account for ~30% of our damage potential, and both require mobility to be effective. Essentially, our greatest and most exploitable weakness is the foundation for our damage.

Your proposed class changes aren't bad, but I would be hesitant to add more skills/traits that requires Action Points. I think a 90 second cooldown on Perfect Balance would be fine as a base change, and Chi Strike would have to replace Somersault. An alternative idea is adding Heavy Resistance to Fist of Wind.

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Originally Posted by Mitski

=To the OP:

I agree that mobility is the major issue facing MNK. Positional attack bonuses and GLx3 each account for ~30% of our damage potential, and both require mobility to be effective. Essentially, our greatest and most exploitable weakness is the foundation for our damage.

Your proposed class changes aren't bad, but I would be hesitant to add more skills/traits that requires Action Points. I think a 90 second cooldown on Perfect Balance would be fine as a base change, and Chi Strike would have to replace Somersault.

An alternative idea is adding Heavy Resistance to Fist of Wind, instead of giving MNK a heavy.

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Hmm, I believe that melee classes need a ranged snare of some sort at the moment. I just think it's ridiculous how easily it is to be kited once my fetter ward/purify is down. We do good damage but I think the GL mechanic doesn't work too well in a PvP atmosphere(excluding perfect balance.)

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Hmm, I believe that melee classes need a ranged snare of some sort at the moment. I just think it's ridiculous how easily it is to be kited once my fetter ward/purify is down. We do good damage but I think the GL mechanic doesn't work too well in a PvP atmosphere(excluding perfect balance.)

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I agree 100% that kiting is our biggest problem, and GL is the worst class mechanic in PvP. I'm just not sure on the best way to fix them.

If we don't have enough mobility we're weak, but with too much mobility we will be overpowered. Adding a snare is probably the biggest mobility change SE could make because it benefits the whole team. Heavy Resistance to Fist of Wind would benefit only MNK, so I think (properly tuned) it may be a more balanced option.

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Originally Posted by Mitski

I agree 100% that kiting is our biggest problem, and GL is the worst class mechanic in PvP. I'm just not sure on the best way to fix them.

If we don't have enough mobility we're weak, but with too much mobility we will be overpowered. Adding a snare is probably the biggest mobility change SE could make because it benefits the whole team. Heavy Resistance to Fist of Wind would benefit only MNK, so I think (properly tuned) it may be a more balanced option.

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The snare may make double melee dps teams powerful, true. However I do believe we absolutely need a ranged attack for some form of damage while we're being kited, every other dps class has one, even DRG.

If MNK / DRG gets a snare, they will be on par with the other DPS classes. Not overpowered. On par.

I have seen a couple decent MNK's on my data center. I can't remember their names now, but one is using Allegan weapons O.o When played correctly they are a scary foe that brings a lot of burst. Although I haven't played the class, I can say that most teams I have faced with a MNK seem to fall off after their initial burst. MNK/MNK/MRD teams global me in full i90 no matter the heals does. Melee dps seems like they will benefit the most from i90 morale gear, but I never see one that has taken the time to rank up

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Originally Posted by LongNu

If MNK / DRG gets a snare, they will be on par with the other DPS classes. Not overpowered. On par.

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It's necessary with how the server handles lag and stuff, even with them lowering the delay I still sometimes miss attacks while right on someone.

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Originally Posted by mirth12

I have seen a couple decent MNK's on my data center. I can't remember their names now, but one is using Allegan weapons O.o When played correctly they are a scary foe that brings a lot of burst. Although I haven't played the class, I can say that most teams I have faced with a MNK seem to fall off after their initial burst. MNK/MNK/MRD teams global me in full i90 no matter the heals does. Melee dps seems like they will benefit the most from i90 morale gear, but I never see one that has taken the time to rank up

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Because all the burst comes from their skill perfect balance... which is on a 3 minute cooldown... So they can normally only burst 1 time per match, which is my gripe. You either kill a target during that one window or it's over.

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Originally Posted by mirth12

I have seen a couple decent MNK's on my data center. I can't remember their names now, but one is using Allegan weapons O.o When played correctly they are a scary foe that brings a lot of burst. Although I haven't played the class, I can say that most teams I have faced with a MNK seem to fall off after their initial burst. MNK/MNK/MRD teams global me in full i90 no matter the heals does. Melee dps seems like they will benefit the most from i90 morale gear, but I never see one that has taken the time to rank up

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Can I be one of the decent MNK's mirth? (Desirae Starfire) mirth plz!

on topic- I don't think MNK needs a single arena buff. Our pvp skills + fists of wind gives everything you should need, more would be beyond OP. The real problem is Miasma and SE has already commented on bringing SCH/SMN into line. A nerf there would be a true buff to MNK (and DRG). Axe Kick is possibly the best arena skill in game.

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Originally Posted by Katiklysm

Can I be one of the decent MNK's mirth? (Desirae Starfire) mirth plz!

on topic- I don't think MNK needs a single arena buff. Our pvp skills + fists of wind gives everything you should need, more would be beyond OP. The real problem is Miasma and SE has already commented on bringing SCH/SMN into line. A nerf there would be a true buff to MNK (and DRG). Axe Kick is possibly the best arena skill in game.

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Yes, miasma makes it pretty much useless when it is on me. I believe monk benefits the most from their PvP abilities as well, seems like it starts kinda bad and then gets better the more PvP skills you get, they all seem to be highly useful. You're a rank 30 Monk right?

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Because all the burst comes from their skill perfect balance... which is on a 3 minute cooldown... So they can normally only burst 1 time per match, which is my gripe. You either kill a target during that one window or it's over.

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Perfect Balance is an "Oops" button (or potentially to faster ramp up dps), it has very little to do with burst. 9 out of 10 matches I use PB to squeeze more damage into the tank at the end for commendation consideration, rarely used at any critical point in the fight.

For Burst: See the 4-5 Off GCD's at your disposal.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Yes, miasma makes it pretty much useless when it is on me. I believe monk benefits the most from their PvP abilities as well, seems like it starts kinda bad and then gets better the more PvP skills you get, they all seem to be highly useful. You're a rank 30 Monk right?

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I wish =) Still a long ways to go, i70pvp+i95 weapon- ah, I just saw you were on Zalera- thought the name looked familiar.

No guarantee that planned adjustments to SMN/SCH will affect Miasma's heavy :( Adjustments to the healing debuff and pet damage/healing seem more likely.

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Originally Posted by Katiklysm

Perfect Balance is an "Oops" button (or potentially to faster ramp up dps), it has very little to do with burst. 9 out of 10 matches I use PB to squeeze more damage into the tank at the end for commendation consideration, rarely used at any critical point in the fight.

For Burst: See the 4-5 Off GCD's at your disposal.

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I usually use it for burst and to get 3 stacks of GL early. It's either that or take 20 seconds worth of GCDs to get 3 stacks.

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Originally Posted by Mitski

No guarantee that planned adjustments to SMN/SCH will affect Miasma's heavy :( Adjustments to the healing debuff and pet damage/healing seem more likely.

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Which actually annoys me greatly, since Miasma is so broken.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I usually use it for burst and to get 3 stacks of GL early. It's either that or take 20 seconds worth of GCDs to get 3 stacks.

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You are aware Axe Kick gives instant GL3, right? PB isn't your only source for racking up Greased Lightning quickly.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

You are aware Axe Kick gives instant GL3, right? PB isn't your only source for racking up Greased Lightning quickly.

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Well, I'm willing to admit when I've made a mistake, I basically skimmed over the description of it. I knew that it gave Pacify but I never read enough of the skill to know it did that ><.

It's alright man, when I noticed its awesomeness in the Patch notes i had to look over it a couple of times to believe it xD

This makes more sense. Can we all agree that Monks are at least good and maybe great in pvp now? Axe kick is amazing.

Monks are amazing in pvp, just very cooldown dependant. I said it once, it's a rogue gameplay, you have to be fast. The only thing monk need would be a slow or a bind really after Shoulder Tackle, instead of it applyin a stun and "problem" solved, but given their gun power ... it's fine as it is

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Originally Posted by Katiklysm

This makes more sense. Can we all agree that Monks are at least good and maybe great in pvp now? Axe kick is amazing.

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Hold up, am I the only one who noticed it did that? lol.

A lot of people overlooked it I am afraid. After all, the allure of a skill that pacifies enemies may cause someone to focus on that one factor rather than the other factors within it...

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Originally Posted by Houston009

Hold up, am I the only one who noticed it did that? lol.

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Naw, I know what Axe Kick does, and have. Note that it has to hit someone in order to give you GL3, not just an auto buff on use anywhere :)

It just seems like Monks rely on having a 3rd party snare or CC. I have spent countless games just literally mashing my Boot Shine or Dragon Kick button seeing it activate half way but nothing happening and just chasing a target till I get CC'd or something else slows my target, would sure be nice to have more appropriate tools (PvP abilities, Sprint, Fists of Wind etc.) at my own disposal that I can use more than once per fight ie. not 3 minute CDs on everything (hyperbole's yay). I agree our damage is fine, but if you can never hit, its moot.

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Originally Posted by Katiklysm

Naw, I know what Axe Kick does, and have. Note that it has to hit someone in order to give you GL3, not just an auto buff on use anywhere :)

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Yea, the only downside to that move is if it misses which only (really) happens when people hop over it which is extremely annoying.

Also, doesn't Weapon Throw count as a snare? It negates Sprint and applies Heavy w/ a 2 minute cool down. Which can be enhanced to increase the duration, its potency, and cut the cool down in half.

Monks are a pretty well rounded dps class so if they had burst they would be
too strong.

Monks mobility is very good
Fists of Wind Move speed increase
Shoulder tackle (30s cooldown vs 90s on Spineshatter dive / 180s Dragonfire Dive

They have nice utility
Arm of the destroyer (Silence) / One Ilm Punch (Buff Removal)
Mantra (Increase healing +20%)

Position Requirements are lenient
Position requirements for monk enhance potency but you aren't shut down for neglecting
them in battle. You receive the 10% damage buff from twin snakes when used out
of position. Dragoons don't receive their heavy thrust / impulse drive bonuses when
out of position

I don't see anything wrong with monks, I know a pro monk on our server ( cough Karsa cough) that would constantly do more damage than me. The only problem is the jumping exploit, fcks melee over.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Monks are a pretty well rounded dps class so if they had burst they would be
too strong.

Monks mobility is very good
Fists of Wind Move speed increase
Shoulder tackle (30s cooldown vs 90s on Spineshatter dive / 180s Dragonfire Dive



Position Requirements are lenient
Position requirements for monk enhance potency but you aren't shut down for neglecting
them in battle. You receive the 10% damage buff from twin snakes when used out
of position. Dragoons don't receive their heavy thrust / impulse drive bonuses when
out of position

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Bunny hopping isn't the only thing that screws Monk over. Miasma also shuts me down pretty badly. If I'm to be honest, there are SMN teams and then there is everything else, I have way more trouble with SMNs, though I suppose that is more a problem of SMNs being OP. Though DRGs have 3 jumps and a ranged attack, so I feel they can put out more damage against SMN teams if they have miasma put on them. Also since we have no move to waive positional requirements, a decent amount of our flank damage is taken away.

I didn't read the entire thread, but I have met several good MNKs in the arena. However, DRG on the other hand, tends to be a problem, I have a much higher loss rate paired with DRG than MNK.

You realize if every melee class is given the ability to defeat kiters, forcing casters to remain in position, they will never get off a single spell save for the 10-20 sec of uninterrupted casting (which can still be stunned/pushed back)...

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Originally Posted by Braxy

You realize if every melee class is given the ability to defeat kiters, forcing casters to remain in position, they will never get off a single spell save for the 10-20 sec of uninterrupted casting (which can still be stunned/pushed back)...

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I don't think anyone suggested that monks should be unkiteable. The discussion was focused more on decreasing the frequency or the duration.

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Originally Posted by Epistane

I don't see anything wrong with monks.

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I don't either.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I didn't read the entire thread, but I have met several good MNKs in the arena. However, DRG on the other hand, tends to be a problem, I have a much higher loss rate paired with DRG than MNK.

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That's because DRGs have no point other than spam damage and train casters. If DRG can't do that then they're useless. MNK has more overall versatility.

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Originally Posted by LongNu

I don't either.


That's because DRGs have no point other than spam damage and train casters. If DRG can't do that then they're useless. MNK has more overall versatility.

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Buff DRGs. Give utility! ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ