Tanks and PvP

With PvP coming in the next patch and seeing how there is a PLD PvP set, i am assuming we will have a role in PvP, but im curious how it will balanced since we hit like wet noodles compared to dps but can take more.

Will we have a role in lion's den?

There is no class with more crowdcontroll than the paladin. If someone is actually fighting you can lock him down for at least 10 seconds with stun and collapse only further reducing his effectiveness with aoe blinds, taking the damage of your mates... And taunt will have some effect there for sure either. Be it forced attack on you ore reduced damage on others. It will be a great class for pvp.

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Originally Posted by Sinaloa

And taunt will have some effect there for sure either. Be it forced attack on you ore reduced damage on others. It will be a great class for pvp.

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Except taunt doesn't exists in this game. If you're referring to provoke, not a taunt, then it has zero duration and applies no spell or effect to the target at all. Kinda don't think that's gonna be the case.

I would imagine they're going to have to make huge balance changes for pvp to work. Sprint currently will break the game, locking someone down for 10s is just insane, and casters and bards will rule the world given the current skill sets.

Have you seen the new images? We're getting a whole new skill set.

^ No i have not?!?!?!

That sounds interesting

Yes, all the classes will get "PvP Skills" that do not overlap with the PvE skills. Actually makes me slightly interested in the PvP here. I can't wait to see the toolkit that SCH gets, but both PLD and WAR also interest me from a PvP perspective.

I'm excited to see that as well - does anyone have a link to the armor sets and the news regarding the new skill sets for more detail?

From the Lodestone's page on PvP:
http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/p...rena/ss_04.png
It looks like the PvP abilities might be GC-specific.

And that you're limited to 10 abilities! Cool.

Tanks do not hit like wet noodles. You're aware that tanks are capable of at least 80% of a dedicated DPS role's DPS, right? As previously noted, nobody else has as much hard CC as the tanks do (PLD specifically... WAR barely has a Stun and Root). In PvE a tank usually can't fully DPS as an OT because their highest DPS comes from their Enmity combos. This is negated in PvP as enmity shouldn't have any effect.

Tanks will stance dance constantly in PvP especially PLDs between Oaths. WAR can utilize Defiance for sponge and additional healing.

WAR provides a second way to apply 50% healing reduction if you don't have an ACN base class in your comp as well as the 2.1 changes to Storm's Path which will reduce the targets DPS output.

PLD has great support in the way of SS and Cover and tanks in general have great peeling abilities (the hard CC mentioned above).

All in all, if you look at any truly viable compositions, you will almost always have a tank in groups of 4 or more from the history of all MMOs.

Every class will have a good role that they will fill. Don't worry.

^ Your post isn't relevant as we're getting PVP skills. Read the rest of the thread :p

I doubt Provoke would be used, but I can see Cover being used to "tank" in PvP.
(Along with Holmgang for WAR)

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Originally Posted by harkinate

^ Your post isn't relevant as we're getting PVP skills. Read the rest of the thread :p

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Can you provide proof that PvP skills are the only available skills to be used during PvP? I've seen nothing of that other than PvP skills being an ADDITION to your skill set.

"PvP Exclusive Skills" means that the the skills are only available in PvP. It does not say that any other skills in a job/class's kit are excluded.

Also, from an interview:

"Q. Exactly what will PvP-specific skills entail?

A. There will be abilities you can use to immediately recover from sleep, bind, or other enfeeblement effects cast on you, and also passive traits that will reduce the duration of sleep effects. We will also expand these skills moving forward, as they can be used during the Front Lines PvP planned for the future."

Again, nothing about excluding the job/class's kit anywhere in that response.

I have never seen anything to suggest that Tank's hit for 80% of what a BLM/MNK/DRG/BRD can do.

Imho an easy way to balance pvp would be to limit pvp to pvp skill only. Easiest way to do this would be to take a number of our current skills, adjust them for pvp, then insert their new "pvp" skills such as CC reduction etc.

There are a huge number of current pve skills that will be game breaking if allowed in pvp.

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Originally Posted by TekkaTakeda

Again, nothing about excluding the job/class's kit anywhere in that response.

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Indeed. The 2.1 trailer even shows a Warrior using the new Holmgang against another player during the PvP section.

It looks like they are allowing all your normal skills, plus giving you PvP skills that will unbreak the game-breakers, i.e. instant recovery from sleep, probably stun resistance, heavy shake-off, etc.

Wolves Den looks like basically a training ground for frontlines. And gosh darn frontlines look so awesome and fun. I think this game is going to evolve into something extremely special if people are willing to immerse and enjoy the small things as they come.

I keep hearing about front lines, but I haven't seen anything about it (I think), teach me Obi Wan.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

It looks like they are allowing all your normal skills, plus giving you PvP skills that will unbreak the game-breakers, i.e. instant recovery from sleep, probably stun resistance, heavy shake-off, etc.

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Even with the abilities you mentioned to avoid CC it would still be broken. We'd have to use the heavy removal every couple of seconds which will probably have an animation which means we're NOT using other skills even if its off GCD as this game includes animation lockout.

Guys what do you think about Shield Swipe? Pacification for 6 seconds..For example if I am fighting a WARRIOR i have a successful block I use Shield Swipe it would hurt the Warrior alot. What do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

Even with the abilities you mentioned to avoid CC it would still be broken. We'd have to use the heavy removal every couple of seconds which will probably have an animation which means we're NOT using other skills even if its off GCD as this game includes animation lockout.

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You just made the assumption that 1) the skill will have an animation, 2) Someone is hitting you with heavy every 2 seconds, thus making them use low-damage skills to apply the effect to you so that you have to clear yourself of the affect 3) Either of those things would "break" PvP. I don't know if you can definitively say any of those things at this point - after the next Live Letter let's talk again.

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Originally Posted by KristianFortNox

Guys what do you think about Shield Swipe? Pacification for 6 seconds..For example if I am fighting a WARRIOR i have a successful block I use Shield Swipe it would hurt the Warrior alot. What do you guys think?

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I'd say you are on to something!

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Originally Posted by Vactus

I keep hearing about front lines, but I haven't seen anything about it (I think), teach me Obi Wan.

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It was mentioned by Yoshi a long time ago as one of the PvP "arenas" to be implemented. Intended as a large scale (think army on army action) PvP between nations and such. There wasn't a ton of detail beyond "massive" battles, Magitek armor on the field, "huge" number of players, and one or 2 bits of concept art.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

I have never seen anything to suggest that Tank's hit for 80% of what a BLM/MNK/DRG/BRD can do.

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I don't have the exact numbers but from a few hours of dummy parses a month ago on my WAR I averaged 250 DPS (until TP ran out). I've acquired quite a bit of gear since then so it was more of an assumption that we could be around 80%.

Regardless, nobody's hitting like a wet noodle tank wise.

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Originally Posted by TekkaTakeda

I don't have the exact numbers but from a few hours of dummy parses a month ago on my WAR I averaged 250 DPS (until TP ran out). I've acquired quite a bit of gear since then so it was more of an assumption that we could be around 80%.

Regardless, nobody's hitting like a wet noodle tank wise.

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Which parser do you use, and what do your rotations look like.
I ask not to troll but because I don't get this high and wonder if I can't optimize my rotations based on yours.

SE>SB>repeat

I do not use Fracture.

+1 w/ 30STR when I parsed but my STR was only 400-405 solo.

If you used +STR pots frequently then you could bump that up a bit. I've thought about macroing it with Berserk.

However, since this thread is about PvP, Brutal Swing(to lock someone in position)+SE+Holmgang as Brutal is about to wear off+SB combo should be a very large chunk of HP gone. Depending on how resists/defense works, we should be able to take off 1/2 of someone's HP if not more. I say this because I expect there to be a stat or PvP armor that reduces the amount of damage taken from players. I understand there are skills that will break CC, but they will have decent CDs I'm sure.

Also, even with a CC reduction stat, let's say 20%, we're still looking at 4s stun from Brutal which is enough to get two attacks off before melee sync becomes an issue.

At least according to my experience in other games namely DAoC, GW1, AC: Darktide, UO, Shadowbane, etc.

well...

if u comparing PLD dps to this...

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/8459/c9aw.jpg

then the answer is yes

we are doing wet noodles

now imagine warrior with all those [fill in yourself]... in a pvp, damn its scary

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Originally Posted by TekkaTakeda

SE>SB>repeat

I do not use Fracture.

+1 w/ 30STR when I parsed but my STR was only 400-405 solo.

If you used +STR pots frequently then you could bump that up a bit. I've thought about macroing it with Berserk.

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Theres a Macro for Items!? Whats the command, Ive been searching for this everywhere. I thought it was /item "Mega Potion of ???" <me> but that doesnt work.

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

Except taunt doesn't exists in this game. If you're referring to provoke, not a taunt, then it has zero duration and applies no spell or effect to the target at all. Kinda don't think that's gonna be the case.

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Provoke in FFXI also had no duration or effect applied, yet in PvP had a drastically different effect (forced enemy to target you for a short time; also prevented them from using self-target things). It's very possible some PvE abilities will behave differently in PvP.

Tbh i wanna see more gld use like the ability to use PVE skills as a class and not as a job. It's pretty sad how classes have fallen to the wayside.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Theres a Macro for Items!? Whats the command, Ive been searching for this everywhere. I thought it was /item "Mega Potion of ???" <me> but that doesnt work.

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I think it only worked in beta. If you have a programmable mouse or keyboard, you could just set it to do a macro that hits two hotkeys (one for pot and one for Zerk or whatever else) in a row. That's the best I can think of at this time.

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Originally Posted by KristianFortNox

Guys what do you think about Shield Swipe? Pacification for 6 seconds..For example if I am fighting a WARRIOR i have a successful block I use Shield Swipe it would hurt the Warrior alot. What do you guys think?

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Awesome sig xD

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Originally Posted by TekkaTakeda

SE>SB>repeat

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SB.. as in.. Savage Blade? could you elaborate? or am i just confused. o.o"

Depending on how they implement the "capture the flag" game Yoshida mentioned, you'd already have a guaranteed spot for a PLD or WAR as tanks tend to make the best flag carriers (keeping in mind that PLD can break roots and snares while WAR has an HP advantage).

Tank classes are some of the best in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Depending on how they implement the "capture the flag" game Yoshida mentioned, you'd already have a guaranteed spot for a PLD or WAR as tanks tend to make the best flag carriers

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Aye.

In a nutshell, objective based game modes are great for tanks. Things that are just a pure death match/killfest probably less so without some extreme loving from the devs (which would probably in turn cause issues with objective modes) as they generally lack the burst to help kill someone while an opposing healer is CC'd or otherwise occupied (their durability only matters if they're getting hit while the lower damage output always matters).

Warrior stance dancing could prove interesting, depending on how it all plays out. Guess we'll find out in less than 2 weeks.