Tanks lose aggro when they take dmg?

The mt in my raid group told me that tank loses aggro as they take dmg, so i shouldnt dps the dreadnaught in sword oath with Rage of Halone.

Is this true?

Not quite sure what you're asking here. Could you describe what you and your group were doing and what was the problem?

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Originally Posted by Grembo

Not quite sure what you're asking here. Could you describe what you and your group were doing and what was the problem?

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We were doing T4, and on phase 3, we wiped because I got an aggro from the mt (me being the OT). My MT's response was that i shouldnt do halone combo in sword oath because the tank loses aggro every time he/she takes dmg, and thus i will eventually get aggro over him, even though he is better geared than i am.

I am wondering if it is true that a tank lose's aggro every time he/she takes dmg.

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

We were doing T4, and on phase 3, we wiped because I got an aggro from the mt (me being the OT). My MT's response was that i shouldnt do halone combo in sword oath because the tank loses aggro every time he/she takes dmg, and thus i will eventually get aggro over him, even though he is better geared than i am.

I am wondering if it is true that a tank lose's aggro every time he/she takes dmg.

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It sounds like the MT was trying to tell you that your attacks damage was pulling hate not that he was losing it because he was receiving damage.

I haven't made enough progress in turn 4 to offer you advice specific to that turn but you should be watching your aggro meters, I tend to watch the tanks rotation and only drop the halone part of my combo after the MT has finished his.

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Originally Posted by Grembo

It sounds like the MT was trying to tell you that your attacks damage was pulling hate not that he was losing it because he was receiving damage.

I haven't made enough progress in turn 4 to offer you advice specific to that turn but you should be watching your aggro meters, I tend to watch the tanks rotation and only drop the halone part of my combo after the MT has finished his.

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Nope, the response was, "Tank lose aggro when they take damage." I'm more puzzled about that than the specific fight.

In FF11 I think you lost enmity from taking damage, not 100% sure. I'm 99% sure that is not the case in this game.

As far as taking aggro on phase 3 juggernaut while OT, that's completely on you. Watch the aggro bar, throw in some riot blade combos early till he's built, you need to make sure you're at 100% mana for the next drop anyway. Once he's got a few RoH combos in, you can switch to RoH to conserve TP for the next wave.

Note: I only mention FF11 because there seems to be the assumption from some people that some of the mechanics from that game made their way over to this game.

As far as I know, no we don't lose hate from being hit. But shield oath is not really all that great as an enmity gain ability... It is very easy for a similarly geared paladin in sword oath to rip hate. Best bet if this happens is to let the tank do a few combos first before you really get into it... and of course keep an eye on your enmity gauge... if you start creeping into the orange, back off a bit. Rage of Halone has a tremendous enmity modifier all on it's own... and can easily do 100-200 more damage than a paladin in shield oath. (especially if you have FoF on and he doesn't.)

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

Nope, the response was, "Tank lose aggro when they take damage." I'm more puzzled about that than the specific fight.

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That could mean anything though, from what you described i'd probably read it like "I lose aggro when they take damage (from you)"

The MT might have had problems with his rotation so he wasn't maximising his threat but since you managed to pull threat completely and wipe the party it's quite clear that a lot of the error was on your end too.

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

Nope, the response was, "Tank lose aggro when they take damage." I'm more puzzled about that than the specific fight.

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Your MT is mistaken. It might seem that way from the perspective of a MT, seeing your OT creeping up on the threat table when in 'non-tanking' stance getting in hits but not receiving any. The thing is, our 'tanking' stance doesn't actually increase hate, unlike any tanking stance I've ever seen. The +enmity component merely (and maybe not fully) compensates from the loss of damage-hate from the dps nerf. OTs in Shield Oath not only get their full dps but get a minor auto attack buff that really adds up over time. And while it might not seem like it takes much time out of the rotation, the time it takes to hit cooldowns can slowly ease back on your aggro throttle as well.

Many time I encounter that with 2 PLD on same gears:
- MT on Shield Oath open the fight, no fight or flight then landed 1 RoH combo
- OT on Sword Oath follow the fight, fight or flight activated then land 1 RoH combo
- The OT will took over aggro

Rotation for MT: Shield Lob > CoS > SW > Flash > RoH Combo
Rotation for OT: Buff (fight or flight + Blood Bath) > Shield Lob > CoS > SW > Flash > RoH combo

gotta watch you rotations as the OT, don't do your rage combo unless you are #3 or lower on the threat list, it i unsafe to perform your combo if you are #2

Hi Seaside,
From my observation, enmity does not decrease from taking damage. I've heard folks who have transitioned from FFXI say this, but that does not appear to be the case in this.

Test Case: Have tank pull lots of low level mobs with Flash. Stoneskin the tank once. Watch tank hold enmity for several minutes without decay.

As others have said, there is a good chance Sword Oath is overtaking him on enmity, especially if you had Fight or Flight and/or higher Strength.

Also, if he's relying on a Rage of Halone three step macro, a step could have not executed or if his Accuracy is not high enough, could have missed on Rage of Halone itself.

The Dreadnought in Wave 3 is a guaranteed hate loss for the MT if the OT starts diving right into his Enmity Combo in Sword Oath. Just start off with 2-3 Fast Blade -> Riot Blade Combos. After that your MT should be ahead enough to not lose aggro.

Also it was stated several times already but yeah...in XIV tanks don't lose aggro as they get hit. It worked that way in XI and in some other MMOs, but not in XIV.

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

We were doing T4, and on phase 3, we wiped because I got an aggro from the mt (me being the OT). My MT's response was that i shouldnt do halone combo in sword oath because the tank loses aggro every time he/she takes dmg, and thus i will eventually get aggro over him, even though he is better geared than i am.

I am wondering if it is true that a tank lose's aggro every time he/she takes dmg.

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no he doesnt lose hate for taking damage but you also shouldnt be doing the halone combo, you should be sword oath and doing riot blade combo.

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Originally Posted by WowSuchName

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Rotation for MT: Shield Lob > CoS > SW > Flash > RoH Combo
Rotation for OT: Buff (fight or flight + Blood Bath) > Shield Lob > CoS > SW > Flash > RoH combo

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Just curious here, maybe I'm missing something, but why would the OT ever use Flash on a mob that the MT is on, seems like asking to pull hate?

And becuase of the non-GCD nature of CoS and SW you can get more enmity in the same time using:
Shield Lob > CoS > Flash > SW > Flash > RoH
Due to the animation times and locks your better off flashing between your 2 non-GCD skills.

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

Nope, the response was, "Tank lose aggro when they take damage." I'm more puzzled about that than the specific fight.

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There have been MMOs in the past that had this mechanic, but FFXIV doesn't seem to. I call this "Voodoo mechanics." when people assume an MMO has hidden mechanics that reflect what they are used to and not what is happening in game.

Threat in this game does NOT decay.

To test this, have 2 players, with no armor, and a similar weapon.

Have both hit the mob ONCE.

Now, who ever hit the hardest, will have hate.
(make sure its a low level enemy.)

Let the mob beat on the person, while both players have their back to it.

The mob will never change targets. (until that player is dead)

this thread is full of win...

taking dmg does not affect your enmity
why are you doing flash on a single target for enmity generation?
someone was suggesting to spam riot blade for MP? wtf?
shield oath generates more enmity per halone combo than sword oath (the oath should not affect your OT)
as the MT you should be opening with fight-o-flight>shield lob>halone full combo+SW>repeat halone combo till dead, by the time the bugs are eaten in the middle I am through my first halone and by then hate is never an issue. the only thing that can mess up the start and give hate issues are when someone pulls hate (like if healer has regen up) so it runs around before the buggs get eaten. As long as bugs get eaten right away in middle this gives you enough time to secure hate.

There is no threat/enmity decay in this game, period. This has been tested and proven, so your tank is either unaware or lieing.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Just curious here, maybe I'm missing something, but why would the OT ever use Flash on a mob that the MT is on, seems like asking to pull hate?

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The blind debuff is about all I can think of.

Every time a MT uses a GCD for flash, they'll generate less hate over time on a single target boss than if they just continued to cycle their RoH combo... so it can sorta makes sense for an OT to use it for them, just like it can sorta makes sense for an OT to use "Stoneskin" on the MT before a big spike hit (I do this in Turn 2) - Healer MP is conserved, no enmity is lost and not much DPS is lost. It's not something you want to spam, but use situationally and occasionally.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Just curious here, maybe I'm missing something, but why would the OT ever use Flash on a mob that the MT is on, seems like asking to pull hate?

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Flash is a fairly minimal amount of threat. The MT is much better off going through their RoH combo. Myself and our other PLD regularly apply flash for each other when we're OTing in Coil.

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

The mt in my raid group told me that tank loses aggro as they take dmg, so i shouldnt dps the dreadnaught in sword oath with Rage of Halone.

Is this true?

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That was true for FFXI, not for FFXIV. You SHOULD be DPSing in sword oath when there's nothing else to do, which is rare.

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

The blind debuff is about all I can think of.

Every time a MT uses a GCD for flash, they'll generate less hate over time on a single target boss than if they just continued to cycle their RoH combo... so it can sorta makes sense for an OT to use it for them, just like it can sorta makes sense for an OT to use "Stoneskin" on the MT before a big spike hit (I do this in Turn 2) - Healer MP is conserved, no enmity is lost and not much DPS is lost. It's not something you want to spam, but use situationally and occasionally.

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

Flash is a fairly minimal amount of threat. The MT is much better off going through their RoH combo. Myself and our other PLD regularly apply flash for each other when we're OTing in Coil.

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Yeah, I was referring to what someone listed as an opening, before hate control has been established at all. I suppose if the OT isn't doing something more useful, and whatever is being fought is blind-able sure. I can't think of too many places where it's truly useful, on trash your OT is wasting potential damage, and on bosses well, they're sacrificing damage ... I suppose if it's blind-able it could be worth it though.

On the stoneskin front, I'm 100% on board with that one.

Sounds like you just deal more damage than the MT and are generating more threat than they are. You need to watch the threat meter (the little white bars underneath everyone's class icon in the party window) and make sure to weave in Riot Blade combos when you are getting close to taking agro.

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Originally Posted by Splice

shield oath generates more enmity per halone combo than sword oath (the oath should not affect your OT)

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False.
The enmity modifier is about 1.2.
The actual damage loss is about 25%.
It doesn't make up for the damage loss, ergo, Paladin in no Oath generates more agro.
WAR has the same isue.

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Originally Posted by Splice

shield oath generates more enmity per halone combo than sword oath (the oath should not affect your OT)
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I'm only disagreeing with this point. The enmity multiplier for Shield oath is equal or less than the damage loss.

Therefore when the OT does their RoH combo they will create the same enmity (not taking into account crits etc) BUT the benefit of Sword Oath's auto attacks actually outweigh the the enmity buff from Shield Oath. So it's possible that the OT will steal hate when using RoH.

I originally thought Shield Oath enmity was broken after I did some playing around but someone explained it to me on these forums.

To be honest you should be looking at the threat meter anyway. If you're close to stealing hate then chill for a sec, use Riot Blade, cast a stoneskin on the MT and let the MT build hate for a bit.

EDIT - Small example. Helping a friend in Castrum today and the OT PLD would steal hate from me on the last boss using Sword oath.

Said PLD had hoplite and Ifrit blade.

I have Myth / DL with relic +1.

Ended up just going Sword Oath to make things faster anyway.

I was going through my post history looking for something the other day and found a post I made on the 1.0 forums saying that this mechanic hasn't been in since around since about 1.18. On the other hand, I can't find it listed anywhere in the patch notes. Regardless, it's never been the case in ARR as far as I'm aware, so your MT was wrong.

Shieldoath reduces the the damage dealt but increasing enmity about the same amount. Autoattacks are at 100+25% enmity

Swordoath doesnt suffer reduction and has no benefits in enmity. Basicly the the skills do the same aggro. Autoattacks are at 150+0% enmity.

He´s right that you will easily draw aggro in swordoath but for the wrong reason. It´s about the autoattacks since the rest is about the same enmity (except Flash).

An easy solution in cases of singletargettanking is the offtank takes the blindingduty. With the OT weaving in Flash the MT has no issue Holding aggro spamming Halone.

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Originally Posted by Sinaloa

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These numbers are off by a bit, in shield oath should be Auto-attacks are 80+25%enmity, not a huge difference in the long run, but it is a difference.

Anyway, after(well while) running Cape Westwind earlier today I had a realization.
Myself outgearing the other Pld that was there neither of us taunting/flashing/etc. just pure DPS rotations while in Sword Oath.

Hate flip-flopped back and forth, I out damaged him, and yet ...
Hate flip-flopped back and forth, I took initial hate, FoF > Shield Lob > CoS > RoH spam w/ FoF/SW/CoS kept on CD full time and yet ...
Hate flip-flopped back and forth

Someone explain to me again how we "know" that there is no enmity falloff, either with damage taken or over time.

ITT: Some Paladins doing Coil have no idea how enmity works.

no matter you are OT or DPS, you need to pay attention on enmity gauge, when the gauge starts flashing red/ yellow triangle on the mob you are targeting, you need to hold back on your regular rotation so the MT wont loose the aggro.

How you passed T2 if you don't even know should not use combo 123 as OT. You do much more Dmg you pull ago from MT.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

These numbers are off by a bit, in shield oath should be Auto-attacks are 80+25%enmity, not a huge difference in the long run, but it is a difference.

Anyway, after(well while) running Cape Westwind earlier today I had a realization.
Myself outgearing the other Pld that was there neither of us taunting/flashing/etc. just pure DPS rotations while in Sword Oath.

Hate flip-flopped back and forth, I out damaged him, and yet ...
Hate flip-flopped back and forth, I took initial hate, FoF > Shield Lob > CoS > RoH spam w/ FoF/SW/CoS kept on CD full time and yet ...
Hate flip-flopped back and forth

Someone explain to me again how we "know" that there is no enmity falloff, either with damage taken or over time.

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So they are off - ok - in favor of my explaination.

What may have happend in the second case: As you said you did outdamage him. Thus you made more damage in ShO than he could doin ShO. But his damage and therefore his aggro is higher in SwO. You read why in my post above. As your halonecombo finishes you get aggro. He lands his halone - he gets it. Your halone goes off you get it. You just got that rare occation where you outgear him that much that you got the same amount of enmity production.

You can test it very very easy if there is a dropoff. Just hit an enemy once. Then let hit someone else hit him (high enough to take not the aggro). Do nothing. If there would be a drawoff due to taking damage the other one would get it. 290 minutes would be a good time to make it relevant from a statistical point of view.

There's no damage drop off. Straight damage a SWO will generate more enmity than SHO. Shield Oath is a huge boost to Flash as an enmity tool as it deals no damage. Long story short. Watch your enmity at that part.

Lol, good place to be a warrior OT. Usually starting a few secs after PLD MT, berserk+unchained+internal release, Maim/Storm's Eye combo instead of enmity. Probably 1 Skull Sunder/Butcher's Block later. Full DPS, lower agro than pure RoH combo, no danger of taking threat unless you really lay on the enmity combo a lot.

Then of course you pay for being WAR on waves 5 & 6 when miss the defensive cooldowns. >.<

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Originally Posted by Sinaloa

So they are off - ok - in favor of my explaination.

What may have happend in the second case: As you said you did outdamage him. Thus you made more damage in ShO than he could doin SwO. But his damage and therefore his aggro is higher in SwO. You read why in my post above. As your halonecombo finishes you get aggro. He lands his halone - he gets it. Your halone goes off you get it. You just got that rare occation where you outgear him that much that you got the same amount of enmity production.

You can test it very very easy if there is a dropoff. Just hit an enemy once. Then let hit someone else hit him (high enough to take not the aggro). Do nothing. If there would be a drawoff due to taking damage the other one would get it. 290 minutes would be a good time to make it relevant from a statistical point of view.

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Yeah, they are in favor of yours, I was just pointing out that the gap is bigger ^^

Italics are just fixed to what I believe you meant to say.

Yeah, we were both in sword oath, I wouldn't do content that far below my gear level in shield lol
At any rate, next time I can borrow a tank for 2 hours of standing still I'll test this. I was thinking flash together in equal gear on a mob then just stand there, no attacking.
A 3rd person to grab the mob initially so there is no artificial "first hit/claim" enmity bump.

Seeing people claim "How you passed T2 if you don't even know should not use combo 123 as OT. You do much more Dmg you pull ago from MT. " make my head hurt.
Dont you dare tell me to not use my Halone combo as OT. I have the brain capacity to watch my Enmity levels and not over throw the main tank. If anything I keep my enmity just below MT on purpose. If anything was to happen to him, I'm instantly able to fill the position.
Sure Its not hard to max enmity in a pinch and take over tanking. But if you can do it, why not do it.

In short if you can't control your own enmity, avoid it. If you understand how to play. Enjoy

Bro, in the same gear but different oaths, the sword oath RoH combo will rip hate off of the other tank if both tanks are competent at their jobs. The only way to 'fall back' is to pause your rotation, CC, buff, or change combos. Since that's the case, the man is right.


**edit** if you want to take hate the moment a tank goes down, just provoke > lob/savage blade/flash

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Yeah, they are in favor of yours, I was just pointing out that the gap is bigger ^^

Italics are just fixed to what I believe you meant to say.

Yeah, we were both in sword oath, I wouldn't do content that far below my gear level in shield lol
At any rate, next time I can borrow a tank for 2 hours of standing still I'll test this. I was thinking flash together in equal gear on a mob then just stand there, no attacking.
A 3rd person to grab the mob initially so there is no artificial "first hit/claim" enmity bump.

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First correction no second yes - thx fixed it. It doesn´t matter who pulled it with how much aggro. If there is a fall off due to getting damage tha aggro will swap at some time and back as that person gets hit. But that won´t happen.

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Originally Posted by baopee

no matter you are OT or DPS, you need to pay attention on enmity gauge, when the gauge starts flashing red/ yellow triangle on the mob you are targeting, you need to hold back on your regular rotation so the MT wont loose the aggro.

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It's funny how most people know this but yet choose to ignore this because they love seeing big numbers.