WAR Issues left unaddressed.

The proposed changes to WAR look OK. I'm not a huge fan of the change in tanking style from a health-tap style to mitigation, but I think the changes overall are OK... I will miss my ~4k Inner Beast heals, but I'll survive.

That being said, there are a few issues with skills that went completely unaddressed with these changes. I am not going to make suggestions, simply point out what these issues are and leave it up to others to make suggestions.

1. Foresight. This ability is still useless. It gets macro'd into one of your main combo abilities and then you pretend it doesn't exist. Either that or you use it with another lack luster ability and pretend that two bad abilities equal one OK ability.

2. Bloodbath. This is again either macro'd into an ability and forgotten about, or only used when Vengeance is active. The healing does add up, but the time required for this to happen is far too long for this to be meaningful.

3. Stun. The reduction in the recast of this ability is off. Most things that need to be stunned are 15 or 30 seconds. The recast reduction to 20 does not in any way help with this. The 30 second abilities are stunnable now, and the 15s will still require someone to help you. You still need someone else to help you, when the stated goal was to improve this. Fail.

4. Silence. This is an issue that affects most of the game, and not just WARs. PLD, BRD, MNK and SCH are the only jobs with a silence available at all. The SCH silence is auto-cast by the support pet and is not really viable. The MNK silence requires the monk to be in a certain stance or it can't be used. Having your PLD silence presents its own problems; It has a long animation and it is another thing that your tank needs to worry about. More DPS classes need to have viable silences, but failing that, give one to the other tank. The current situation encourages dual bards. This should change.

5. TP regeneration. WAR is the largest TP hog in the game and it is also the only job that cannot regenerate its primary resource. PLD is similar, but they can stretch their TP out forever by simply using Flash or Shield Swipe, an option that isn't available for WAR.

6. No utility. This is a general issue for the WAR, albeit minor. No blind, no silence, no pacification, no cover, no rez, no utility at all really.


It's late and I'm sure I've forgotten something, but this will do to start.

A few points in response to this.

-Shield Swipe is pretty much useless at 50
-Foresight is lackluster. But I still cross it with PLD because it's one of few cross class abilities
-WAR stun is off the GCD. This is a massive bonus.
-TP costs have been reduced pula you don't need to rely on using your wrath stacks so these are TP free abilities. Pretty useful
-Why would a PLD cross Rez?
-cover isn't much of a big deal but now holmgang kicks covers ass!
-you can use flash
-Silence shouldn't be given to every job. Just makes everything too homogenised
- Again we use bloodbath which you have a trait for. It's still handy.

There are more but I can't be assed :)

Give an inch...?

Foresight deserves a change. Bloodbath is fine. Stun is fine. No silence is fine. TP regeneration is fine, better now with the patch. Other than the blind (doesn't work on a lot of encounters) and silence, all that utility is worthless.

You just got made the go-to MT and OT and you're still asking for more buffs when the majority aren't needed.

Foresight and Bloodbath: Yes, these abilities are still lackluster. The MAR cross-class abilities could use work.
Stun: We do not need to be stun bots. The cool down has been reduced, increasing quality of life.
Silence: We do not need silence. There are other classes with silence.
TP Regeneration: The changes to wrath mean that can use our wrath abilities more liberally. This is a good TP buffer. Not only that, they reduced the TP cost of a couple moves.
Utility: All of these are paladin utilities. If we had these, why even have a paladin?

I doubt they accidentally left those unaddressed. I'm sure they felt those re-works would've been sufficient to boost us up to the level of a paladin. However, I do agree that those skills could use some thought, based on whether SE reduces the buffs already made.

It's true we could use a silence in our array, and your reason for it is to get rid of double bards set up in coil groups. That's a really good idea, but just take a second to consider groups who haven't been doing double bards and yet manage through coil turns 1&2. I know for sure my group has completed turn 2 without double bards at some point of time. The idea is the same for stuns, especially for turn 5.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

The proposed changes to WAR look OK. I'm not a huge fan of the change in tanking style from a health-tap style to mitigation, but I think the changes overall are OK... I will miss my ~4k Inner Beast heals, but I'll survive.

That being said, there are a few issues with skills that went completely unaddressed with these changes. I am not going to make suggestions, simply point out what these issues are and leave it up to others to make suggestions.

1. Foresight. This ability is still useless. It gets macro'd into one of your main combo abilities and then you pretend it doesn't exist. Either that or you use it with another lack luster ability and pretend that two bad abilities equal one OK ability.


2. Bloodbath. This is again either macro'd into an ability and forgotten about, or only used when Vengeance is active. The healing does add up, but the time required for this to happen is far too long for this to be meaningful.

3. Stun. The reduction in the recast of this ability is off. Most things that need to be stunned are 15 or 30 seconds. The recast reduction to 20 does not in any way help with this. The 30 second abilities are stunnable now, and the 15s will still require someone to help you. You still need someone else to help you, when the stated goal was to improve this. Fail.

4. Silence. This is an issue that affects most of the game, and not just WARs. PLD, BRD, MNK and SCH are the only jobs with a silence available at all. The SCH silence is auto-cast by the support pet and is not really viable. The MNK silence requires the monk to be in a certain stance or it can't be used. Having your PLD silence presents its own problems; It has a long animation and it is another thing that your tank needs to worry about. More DPS classes need to have viable silences, but failing that, give one to the other tank. The current situation encourages dual bards. This should change.

5. TP regeneration. WAR is the largest TP hog in the game and it is also the only job that cannot regenerate its primary resource. PLD is similar, but they can stretch their TP out forever by simply using Flash or Shield Swipe, an option that isn't available for WAR.

6. No utility. This is a general issue for the WAR, albeit minor. No blind, no silence, no pacification, no cover, no rez, no utility at all really.


It's late and I'm sure I've forgotten something, but this will do to start.

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With the changes they announced;I believe Yoshi P and the Dev team did a great job. I know some people are not happy because they gave warrior mitigation abilities, but lets face it, giving Warrior Mitigation is what they needed MOST and its what 99% of the community complained about. No matter how much SE could have boosted our healing abilities, it would eventually get outscaled like it is now because eventually you will fight something that hits too hard to heal, which will put stress on healers and will make PLD a better option and we'll be back in the same boat where we are now. Although I dont agree with all your points, you do make some good points.


1. Foresight: With all the changes to the other abilities if SE buff this too, I think it would make Warrior Possibly OP and make it the Go to Tank. Also, Keep in mind that this is a cross class skill, so any changes to it would also impact PLD, MNK, and DRG. SE has already said that it wasnt there intention to make PLD survivability as strong as they did, buffing this would essentially be buffing PLD even more.

2. Bloodbath: I agree with you here. Bloodbath healing vs Incoming Damage is like trying to fight a Forest Fire with a water gun. I Think they should keep Bloodbath for cross class the same, but make enhance bloodbath increase healing to 50% of damage dealt.

3. Stun: I think the CD on this is Just right. I say this because this is a off GCD Stun which is also Free. If SE made it any shorter, it would make alot of fights tooo easy (Ifrit, Chimera etc). This Keeping this CD at 20sec does 2 things. 1 Keeps PLD in demand, 2. Keeps alot of fights from becoming trivial.

4. Silience 4 Jobs with Silence is enough. Giving Jobs mix utility encourage party diversity. Think it would be bad for the game if every class had stuns and silences.

5. TP Regen: Unless your spamming Overpower (which you shouldnt be) You shouldnt have issues with TP. Even in a worst case senerio that you do somehow run out of tp. You can still use Flash 6-9 times while you wait for TP to recover.

6. Utility: I Agree. WAR needs some utility but to be fair, alot of class/jobs need utility. Maybe SE could Give WAR a ability like that boost Parties Damage by 5%, just throwing it out there.

The buffs basically give you unlimited TP if you are not spamming OP. The wraith changes have unleashed Inner Beast usage. Even before the 2.1 TP reductions if you use IB every time it's available you will never run out of TP. I've done 10 minute dummy rotations and never went below 800 TP.

Can we let the 2.1 patch come and stay a bit before WAR gets bashed again <(^^)/
It's not suppose to become a PLD clone, do same things with same effectivness or better, don't expect changes to become what you want but use the changes to try to achieve what you want, with different jobs, PLD & WAR combo will probably be the best "tank".

i dont really see the point of reducing stun.. i use it on the first AK boss for mind flay (and 30 seconds was perfect because the ability is on 30 second timer) and for the soul summoning guy in AK, thats about it. As far as i know, nothing worth stunning is even stunnable.

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

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As a 50 PLD and WAR a response to your response:
-shield swipe is TP positive - and it's good for snap aggro mid combo
-Spirits Within is off the GCD -- warrior has no silence at all
-Not even sure why you brought up Rez for cross class - we get it your cross class sucks
-Cover is one of the best PLD skills. I use it constantly. It's huge on Turn 4 and can even help out your counterpart tank when healers are moving for rot.
-Flash doesn't give us blind. We only take it because we're constantly TP starved and it's something. Blind WAY better on pally.
-I agree, but give it to the right jobs, not a pet. It does not balance a game when you have to bring at least 1 PLD. You can't really run coil with double WAR without double BRD.

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Originally Posted by Enjin

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Also a 50 PLD and WAR. I'm not going to slate your argument and I'm just looking for discussion here :)
-Never needed shield swipe for aggro? Maybe that's just me but I +1'd my Curtana as soon as.
-I mentioned WAR off GCD for stun because it's a huge bonus. Silence again is a bonus for having a PLD. I'm *assuming* after the changes WAR will have its uses perks that PLD will be lacking. Should every class have a silence then? Might make things a bit boring. But that's just my opinion.
-I brought up Rez because the OP did. He mentioned that as a bonus for PLD. Which it really isn't.
-I rarely use Cover to be fair but it has come in very handy that's true. Haven't done turn 4 yet so you'd have more knowledge with that. But holmgang now does basically the same thing after 2.1 plus adds a *no death* bonus [could still be very tricky for healers but still handy!]
-Blind diminishing return is pretty crap and now that overpower increases even more enmity combined with Steel Cyclone enmity increase you don't really need flash
-I think they're aiming to bring 1 WAR and 1 PLD. Rather than double anything. I haven't seen the BRD patch notes yet but I do hope something has changed a bit!

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

I haven't seen the BRD patch notes yet but I do hope something has changed a bit!

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If the tank forums are any indication of people's reactions, you'll know when the BRD patch notes hits. The coastlines along many continents are going to shift 25 miles inland, the island nations in the Pacific will no longer exist, and even the entirety of Japan may drown from the salty tears that will swell the oceans.

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Originally Posted by Hanabira

i dont really see the point of reducing stun.. i use it on the first AK boss for mind flay (and 30 seconds was perfect because the ability is on 30 second timer) and for the soul summoning guy in AK, thats about it. As far as i know, nothing worth stunning is even stunnable.

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It's mostly for Ifrit HM. People were complaining that warrior+warrior is too risky for DF party so they made Brutal Swing's CD same as eruptions' CD.

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

A few points in response to this.

-Shield Swipe is pretty much useless at 50
-Foresight is lackluster. But I still cross it with PLD because it's one of few cross class abilities
-WAR stun is off the GCD. This is a massive bonus.
-TP costs have been reduced pula you don't need to rely on using your wrath stacks so these are TP free abilities. Pretty useful
-Why would a PLD cross Rez?
-cover isn't much of a big deal but now holmgang kicks covers ass!
-you can use flash
-Silence shouldn't be given to every job. Just makes everything too homogenised
- Again we use bloodbath which you have a trait for. It's still handy.

There are more but I can't be assed :)

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A few points in regards to this.

-WAR stun is off GCD, sure nice. PLDs have a stun thats on demand and lasts longer, sorry if you cant afford to interrupt 1 enmity combo to stun. Seriously, sorry.
-I dont think WARs are the biggest TP hogs, that would be monk. However, a WAR can get 4 flashes off(if lucky) while a PLD can get ...how many? ty, oh sorry, forgot to mention, you guys can recover tp while flash spamming.
-Cover is a HUGE deal, helps save someone. And are you really Q.Q about Holmgang, should i remind you about hallowed ground?
-Woooooooooo! We can flash, it's pretty useless since it doesnt blind, oh wait i guess thats a PLD exclusive trait, eh..
-You're right, silence SHOULDN't be given to every class. Yay, we agree on 1 thing, you should transfer to balmung and we can be friends nao.
-Bloodbath, traited.. still useless for us, even more for you, but eh.. go look at the flash comment.

There are more, but I can't be assed :)

On a side note: Not trying to start an argument, just correcting a few flaws with your post.

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Originally Posted by DartFx

And are you really Q.Q about Holmgang,

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LOL

Mate I play WAR as well. I'm happy that WAR is getting buffed!

But by the sound of things you're looking for a larger buff?

The reason I posted is because I thought the WAR buff was a huge boost to the class (that was much needed) yet some people seem to be moaning about it.

Cover is a huge deal? O_o do you even play PLD?

You seem really angry?

Edit- Flash spam? You're better tab targeting your enmity combo. Even on like 5 mobs since flash enmity isn't that great. Please don't jump to conclusions and take that as a "PLD NEEDZ FLASH BUFF".

PLD is fine as it is and I'm actually excited to get my WAR MTing Coil =]

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Originally Posted by DartFx

This. I actually used Duty Finder to do Titan HM for the giggles and some PLD who barely broke 4.5k hp immediately assumed he was going to MT and rushed titan before I even had the chance to tell him if he would like to MT for the experience. Mind you, in my gear and food I have 7.7k HP. I just love it how PLDs assume they own the place xD.
So, what did i do you ask? Simple. I took hate from him and watched him Q.Q his way to half of his emnity bar.

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Ahhh I now understand why you didn't like my comments. You have a hatred for PLDs.

LOL.

Some of us use both classes to support our raid parties in different ways instead of showing our superiority over a guy that tried Titan without knowing it, while being overgeared for the content.

Keep up the good work buddy :)

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

Too much

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On the contrary, to a lot of the things you said.
1. I think WARs got just a little too much buffing. Just a little though. (Although, depending on how you look at it, it's still fine since PLD brings a shield to the table.)
2. I was going to edit my post and say " I'm actually a big fan of how the classes are going to be now, it'll make sense to take 1 of each tank because they will compliment each other very well, what the WAR lacks, the PLD can provide and vice versa." However i hit backspace on my mouse and, well, didn't feel like reposting.
3. I was in no way showing my "superiority" over a guy who tried titan without knowing it, he full on well knew what he was doing, and really? You're gonna say I'm overgeared for Titan HM? Really? No, just stop. I clearly meant that it was rude for this PLD to assume he was MT just because he is a PLD, btw, did i mention he said WARs shouldn't MT titan? Guess not.
4. You should've been hate dancing(tab targetting) on aoe pulls since the beginning, OP and Flash can only get you so far? Come on, Tanking 101.1..
5. Cover isnt a huge deal, but it does what its supposed to do.
6. No, I don't play a pld, unfortunately I was not one of those WARs who jumped on the PLD bandwagon when they saw they got nerfed. Sure, I put stress on my healers as a WAR but hey, they seem to enjoy it since you know, once you start "overgearing" stuff, kinda gets too easy? So hmm, in case you can't understand, I'm pointing out that healers have fun healing me, their words, not mine(Just like im sure they have fun healing coils).

Seriously, come to balmung we'll be best buds :D Tanking coils together and drinking booze, the works!

I wouldn't mind a consume MP for TP. As a TP buff but outside of that the incoming changes are nice.

I honestly don't like how they went mit instead of making our self heals a whole lot better than what they are now. Another issue is our cross class skills are horrible and imo drg skills along with making our off mit mech parrying could of made wars a lot better.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

5. TP Regen: Unless your spamming Overpower (which you shouldnt be) You shouldnt have issues with TP. Even in a worst case senerio that you do somehow run out of tp. You can still use Flash 6-9 times while you wait for TP to recover.

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To have fun in WP when I pull 2+ groups, I made a macro combining bloodbath/release/Berserk, I use it with Steel Cyclone and Overpower, you should try it. You would see that spaming Overpower can be good depending the situations.

I've got enough MP for 3-4 flashes, I dunno where you're getting 6-9 from.

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Originally Posted by ExarKun007

I've got enough MP for 3-4 flashes, I dunno where you're getting 6-9 from.

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3, as Flash on WAR is somewhere near 272MP

And that's why I <3 bards for TP song. I do have to confess though, that in a 2 BLM WP earlier, it was fun as hell with all the flares going off. I didn't mind waiting between pulls. I mostly amuse myself in there now, if I dont make it interesting, Im just running the same crap over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

It's mostly for Ifrit HM. People were complaining that warrior+warrior is too risky for DF party so they made Brutal Swing's CD same as eruptions' CD.

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And this is why Ifrit HM is HORRIBLE game design. I hope to never see another encounter like that where almost the entire difficulty for the encounter is based on whether you have a paladin or not.

Also I'm all for both classes useless or nearly useless abilities being fixed and made more interesting. Less cooldowns, more active abilities please!

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Originally Posted by Dedayius

And this is why Ifrit HM is HORRIBLE game design. I hope to never see another encounter like that where almost the entire difficulty for the encounter is based on whether you have a paladin or not.

Also I'm all for both classes useless or nearly useless abilities being fixed and made more interesting. Less cooldowns, more active abilities please!

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You don't need a paladin, it just makes it easier with pugs that don't have voice com to coordinate stuns that have cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

Also a 50 PLD and WAR. I'm not going to slate your argument and I'm just looking for discussion here :)
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• Tab shield swipe. It's also more TP efficient. I have +1 curtana. Getting snap aggro on turn 4 saves lives. If I can stun an add by breaking stoneskin it saves healers. I have since switched to WAR solely for Turn 4.
• You can't stun any important boss abilities in coil, you have to silence. Not having a silence on the tank limits group comp options, hence the double WAR comment.
• The actual bonus is stoneskin - but yeah we agree on rez being pointless.
• Holmgang will not allow you to bypass stacks like HG does.
• WARs don't get the additional blind on blind. DR has nothing to do with it, there's nothing to DR. Flash still has a place as you can't overpower behind you.

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Originally Posted by ExarKun007

You don't need a paladin, it just makes it easier with pugs that don't have voice com to coordinate stuns that have cooldowns.

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You are correct that you don't need a paladin, but having one makes it significantly easier. That's my issue with it. I would much prefer fights to be slightly easier/harder based on class composition so that the encounter is always challenging rather than being trivialized simply because you have X class. Encounters that are designed like this will lead to community requirements of certain classes or people won't run the dungeon and I would prefer to not see that happen so that every class is always welcome to every encounter.

Paladins can Flash to AOE Blind. Its good for trash. I'd argue for Overpower to blind but that's just boring. Where's the Steel Cyclone stun?

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Originally Posted by Enjin

[*]Tab shield swipe. It's also more TP efficient. I have +1 curtana. Getting snap aggro on turn 4 saves lives. If I can stun an add by breaking stoneskin it saves healers. I have since switched to WAR solely for Turn 4.

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WAR *sucks* on T4, especially on the knights/soldiers, and not just because of the rubbish CD suite we've got right now. You do not get any of the secondary benefits of your attacks (like Wrath stacks, Maim's buff, Storm's Eye's debuff) when an attack is fully absorbed by a shield so any attack that you use on the soldier is going to be completely and utterly wasted. I *really* hope it's something that they fix eventually.

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Originally Posted by Dedayius

I would much prefer fights to be slightly easier/harder based on class composition so that the encounter is always challenging rather than being trivialized simply because you have X class.

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Yep, Iffrit HM was one of the most frustrating fight for me...
Not because it gave our group a hard time but because it was the first time I felt PLD could do something that WAR couldn't.
I'd be ok if we were just less efficient, but in that can it's impossible to interrupt all eruption on our own like PLD can... I was really pissed.

Still, I had the most fun when I had to coordinate stun with another WAR. It felt great doing it that way (the intended one?).

But for any other content, I'll take WAR's stun other PLD's anytime so I can't really complain!!!

I would say slashing resist lowered and dmg dealt lowered are pretty big utilities that warriors now bring to the table.

What I would like to see is a combo action available by using overpower in conjunction with steel cyclone. Maybe an extra stun ability that is slightly stronger/longer than the others. Would make up for our loss of shield on multiple mobs. Add a damage reduction that would work if we were off or main tank.

The current stun is incredibly cumbersome to use, the wind up is so long that most abilities have gone off by the time you can use it.

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Originally Posted by ExarKun007

The current stun is incredibly cumbersome to use, the wind up is so long that most abilities have gone off by the time you can use it.

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I've never experienced that with Warrior stun. For me it's typically a 1/4 charge bar in length for the Stun Effect.
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I like all the changes as it's very balanced with Paladin, I just wish they kept with the Warrior design of HP Absorb = Mitigation.

If it was possible to track, I think they should have tied Wrath to damage taken. 1/12th of Max HP Damage taken = 1 Stack

Vengeance - 1/24th of Max HP Damage Taken = 1 Stack (+ the Normal function)

Inner Beast - Keep 300% Damage into HP - Add Increased Enmity

Steel Cyclone - Add Absorb 50% of Damage Dealt + Increased Enmity

Foresight - CD should be 90s - Lvl 14 Enhanced Foresight should add - Increases Parry by 60%

Because Paladin has both Block and Parry - Warrior should learn a Trait that 50% of Parried Damage is recovered as HP.
Example: 2000 Damage hit - 25% Parried - 12.5% Healed - Total Mitigation 37.5%

I think that design would tie in really well with the New Holmgang as well, since when it wears off you will be at 1HP without any heals. You should be at full Wrath Stacks from Damage taken to get to that point, so before it wears off:

Berserk, Internal Release, Second Wind - IB + Infuriate + IB

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Originally Posted by Kitru

WAR *sucks* on T4, especially on the knights/soldiers, and not just because of the rubbish CD suite we've got right now. You do not get any of the secondary benefits of your attacks (like Wrath stacks, Maim's buff, Storm's Eye's debuff) when an attack is fully absorbed by a shield so any attack that you use on the soldier is going to be completely and utterly wasted. I *really* hope it's something that they fix eventually.

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No one in my BC linkshell will believe you if you tell them that. I can break the shield with my damage and cause it to stun before the DPS gets to it, then they blow it up. If a soldier / knight is still up when a juggnernaut pops I can kill it while the DPS switches. My PLD outgears my warrior yet for our group my warrior is superior on turn 4. My group prefers my warrior on Turn 4. I also always have full wrath stacks when I need them -- wrath management is easy.

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Originally Posted by Enjin

No one in my BC linkshell will believe you if you tell them that. I can break the shield with my damage and cause it to stun before the DPS gets to it, then they blow it up. If a soldier / knight is still up when a juggnernaut pops I can kill it while the DPS switches. My PLD outgears my warrior yet for our group my warrior is superior on turn 4. My group prefers my warrior on Turn 4. I also always have full wrath stacks when I need them -- wrath management is easy.

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I'd have to see this to believe it. This is something I can't even really fathom.

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Originally Posted by Seidaku

I would say slashing resist lowered and dmg dealt lowered are pretty big utilities that warriors now bring to the table.

What I would like to see is a combo action available by using overpower in conjunction with steel cyclone. Maybe an extra stun ability that is slightly stronger/longer than the others. Would make up for our loss of shield on multiple mobs. Add a damage reduction that would work if we were off or main tank.

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It's irritating that PLDs have one combo for max threat and debuff. We essentially have 3. I'm sorry but that's a lot of bloat.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I'd have to see this to believe it. This is something I can't even really fathom.

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I did it without +1 bravura and avg of ilev 70 gear. I think I still have Fraps around here to record it. I'm can at least stream it next week.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I'd have to see this to believe it. This is something I can't even really fathom.

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It's fairly easy. You can just spam overpower and do it, or you can do it even faster if you're cycling BB combos (which you should be)