Sacrificing .79 DPS for 507 HP

I recently made all the crafted accessories and belt with meld caps for STR, ACC, DET, Crit, and 8/9 Vit. Compared to best in slot for dragoon I'm only losing .79 dps for that massive survival buff. In my opinion I think its worth it. What do you guys think?

*Side Note* I probably spent around 6-7mil on my equipment to have damn near BIS stats. What did I achieve? Little over 500 hp (survivability) as well as time saved from having to save up mythology badges or farming binding coil until my accessories/belt drop. What I have achieved is having near BIS with potentially never having to step foot in Binding Coil and being geared for the next content by shaving off 2-3 months of waiting around for BIS gear.

Why I like having extra cushion: My theory as in most games like these is "What's the point in having all that damage if you can't stay alive". Now this gets mixed opinions because yes if you did your job you shouldn't be getting hit by anything. This true although it's not something everyone can pick up right off the bat. It takes practice to master boss mechanics and while I'm still learning new content this hp is utilized for my mistakes. Accidents will occur on the battlefield and the unexpected will hit me in the face. At least I"ll be ready for it. So the way I look at it is i'm wearing training wheels until I feel ready.

Comparing:
Crit Adjusted Weapon SKill DPS with basic 100 potency attack.

BIS:
STR 498
ACC 481
Crit 481
SS 363
Det: 314
DEF 527
MDef 299
Vit 390
DPS: 63.37

Crafted + Myth
STR 474
ACC 486
Crit 487
SS 441
DET 300
Def 524
Mdef 296
Vit 425
DPS: 62.58

Example Scenario: My coil group beats turn 1 for first time with myself delivering killing blow and surviving with 245 hp.
http://www.twitch.tv/crush3r07/c/3262783

All damage calculators come from basic 100 potency attack: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=202
Their research and numbers come from: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id...amageMechanics

Gear In Question: I have all tradecrafts 50, but it still cost me around 6-7mill total to over meld these. There are two of those rings. 6 Pieces total

http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...pse72ac100.png
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4ab3ef32.png
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3c498958.png
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...ps734e2fb2.png
http://i1341.photobucket.com/albums/...psbf556193.png

Helpful Comments:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

A more accurate way of describing the scenario would be to state that you see a 1.26% increase in weaponskill DPS. You could provide a comparable number for autoattacks as well.

//EDIT: Yep, tossed the numbers into the calculator and that's exactly what OP did.

//EDIT 2: Yeah, so it's 1.27% WS DPS and 4.83% AA DPS according to the calculator. Depending on the exact DPS weights of AA versus WS (I don't know for sure, I will estimate around 25% of damage is AA), you'd expect an overall increase in DPS of about 2.1-2.2% in exchange for the 507 HP.

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I'll just say you're undervaluing STR and your DPS calculations are wrong.

Beyond that, the only time you will ever need that HP is Twintania. Any other time, it is useless. Yes, useless.

Max HP >>>> anything else

Rule 1 of DPS: Survive

Can't do nuts when you are dead.

What you say? Play better and thats what healers are for?

Well accidents happens. Can you survive that accident?

Beyond the whole undervaluing stats, if you need that extra health for even Twintania as anything other than a tank then there's something your group is doing wrong for you to need said health. As a dragoon you already have the highest health pool for a dps, if you're dodging abilities like you're supposed to then the majority of that health is for nothing, if you're not dodging avoidable attacks however then no amount of health will prevent the inevitable death that will occur.

In full bis gear every class has the health to survive all unavoidable dmg Twintania does and most classes will even remain fairly well above dying to said aoes with full bis. Literally if you have enough health to be able to take a fireball soak and still have an extra 1k or more then anything more as a dps or healer is wasted when compared to other stats that could have a dps or healing benefit.

I think Persevering Crusher is smart because he thinks outside the box and tries to find the most interesting trade-offs. If the numbers are correct (I assume not just theorised but tested in real situations with a parser to assess DPS), then clearly that's the way to go. In which case, GJ! :)

First off, that is significantly more of a DPS loss than .79. The gap in STR alone will amount to much more than that.

Secondly, depending on where that extra 501 puts you it may or may not be worth it. For Turn 5 you need at least 4k HP to reliably go through it without being carried. So if you're already at 4k+ HP with the BIS (which I'm sure with 390 VIT, you are ) then no it is not worth sacrificing so much DPS for 500 extra HP.

To make such claims, you have to present evidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steeled

To make such claims, you have to present evidence.

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Who are you talking to exactly? if it's the person above your post then the evidence is in every single Twintania kill that has happened so far or even what everyone says you need to successfully get past the conflag phase on a consistent basis. 4k health is the breaking point for where you have a 100% chance at surviving a fireball when a group is stacked with 4 players/pets. Anything more than 4k just raises the margin for error and allows you to be lower than full health when taking a fireball.

However as a dragoon in full bis(as the op says he has) you have over 5k health already. That is quite a bit over the breaking point needed for fireballs and anything higher is just wasted when it comes in the form of losing dps or healing. If you can follow the mechanics though there are 3 phases that are a dps race(conflag/snakes/dreadknights), all 3 of these phases require everyone to push as much damage as possible as fast as they can. What is an extra amount of health going to do when it comes to dps races when you already have well over what is required to successfully survive the only mechanic that requires a decent base health?

Outside of a few mechanics on each boss, all damage is avoidable and the unavoidable dmg has honestly a fairly low ceiling for how much health you need to survive it. What is a health buffer going to do for a dps or healer when they should be avoiding all avoidable dmg in the first place? It's your job to move out of things while continuing to push out damage or healing, if you need extra useless health to accomplish that because you suck at moving out of things sometimes then there's problems that need to be dealt with beyond stacking more health.

63.37 DPS?

No one even blinked at this?

Really?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

63.37 DPS?

No one even blinked at this?

Really?

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I just thought it was auto attacking, no one could possibly be that bad with so much gear at their disposal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pellegri

I just thought it was auto attacking, no one could possibly be that bad with so much gear at their disposal.

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Yes, me too, since all skill damage is based on auto-attack potency linearly, apparently.

Even for twintania you shouldnt sacrifice dps for hp. Because you will hit enrage then. Dragoon won't ever be one shot by fire balls will they?

The only dps that may get one shot is undergeared blm/smns but the healers can easily put stoneskin and succor to avoid one shots anyway. You can also utilize virus and eye for an eye rotations. There is also sacred soil for the 10% reduction. Everyone hates wiping on conflags due to low dps(nothing causes rage quits faster then this)

In this game more dps makes fights so much easier. Especially for healers. E.g turn 4 killing dreads before next wave spawns or turn 1 killing snakes before too many stacks or even titan hm.

I would much rather my dps have higher dps then higher hp(speaking as a whm) . Low dps will make some fights much harder and wipefests. Remember that there may be 1 or 2 people in your raid that does lower dps that they should. So having higher dps to compensate is great.

Finally you won't ever be taking so much damage in coil 1-4 that your 500 hp will make a difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pellegri

Who are you talking to exactly?

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I was speaking directly to the OP.

He's not wrong that more health is never bad, as long as the expense is not bad. It's exactly the same as a tank doing more dps is never bad. Here he loses 1% dps for 12% hp increase, according to his numbers, and that's really a no-brainer, but he'd have to present actual data that could be observed and not something that he's mathed himself (without any time hitting anything), or that some form online has guesstimated.

People here talking about "If you need more than 4k hp, somebody is doing something wrong" are so full of themselves, ya know? Mistakes happen, and legitimate lag actually does happen. We've all seen the dps survive a blow with 12 hp, which means they also have died because of 12 hp. If he can actually make the case, he has a valid point, but for now, it just sounds silly.

Also, if this were somehow true, SE really needs to rethink the value of numbers.

If his math is right, and I'm not saying it is--

His type of gearing is more likely to make progression in the next new hard content when most dps are surviving, or dying, because of a few dozen hp. A dead dps does no damage, more than 1% is lost when you're dead for several seconds, especially if your revival is slow/messy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steeled

If his math is right, and I'm not saying it is--

His type of gearing is more likely to make progression in the next new hard content when most dps are surviving, or dying, because of a few dozen hp. A dead dps does no damage, more than 1% is lost when you're dead for several seconds, especially if your revival is slow/messy.

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The math is definitely incorrect. If not in an arithmetic sense, then in a misinterpretation sense. The DPS values he did used to determine the DPS difference of .79 are likely Auto Attack only DPS, in which case they do not reflect the actual DPS difference between builds, or even worse that's how much he managed to parse/do which means either he's not parsing right or he's doing it all wrong.

Don't know about your server, but on mine, i farmed 18 x 125 tome materia, get FC to craft 2start HQ for FREE

Spent 1mil to meld that 1 item, also by FC, so every meld was free...

So yea, on average of 1mil gil a piece, 5 piece is 5mil, which is quite steep

There is no way that DPS calculation is correct in absolute terms. If you look at relative difference, it's only about a 1% change which seems sandbagged to me.

If you run a heavy melee group, like me, you'll need the DRG eating fireballs. However, fireballs present a larger problem for healers/ranged DPS who have a far lower HP than a dragoon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

Rule 1 of DPS: Survive

Can't do nuts when you are dead.

What you say? Play better and thats what healers are for?

Well accidents happens. Can you survive that accident?

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If you're rocking VIT gear to survive as a DPS you're doing it wrong. None of the fights in the game are designed so DPS need to use VIT gear to survive.

I posted where my numbers came from in original post. I was using a well distinguished damage calculator.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crush3r07

I posted where my numbers came from in original post. I was using a well distinguished damage calculator.

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Unless they define DPS as something other than "damage per second", sorry bud - but that calculator blows.

If you're regularly needing that 500 extra HP, you're probably doing something wrong. I'm not saying it's a bad decision to make a very minor DPS drop for more survivability, but IMO if you really wanted to do that, you could keep your BIS gear and trade a few bonus stat points into vitality and get basically the same effect without obtaining a special set of gear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Unless they define DPS as something other than "damage per second", sorry bud - but that calculator blows.

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You would be wrong. Valk's calculator has been repeatedly shown to be highly accurate. The problem is that OP is using "DPS" without stating what Valk's value there even really means. Valk's calculator just calculates DPS as a function of repeated attacks using a given potency. There are separate comparisons for autoattack and weaponskill DPS because they do not use the same formula (Determination is vastly more valuable to autoattacks compared to weaponskills). It is likely that OP just left the WS potency at 100 and reported the DPS for that alone.

A more accurate way of describing the scenario would be to state that you see a 1.26% increase in weaponskill DPS. You could provide a comparable number for autoattacks as well.

//EDIT: Yep, tossed the numbers into the calculator and that's exactly what OP did.

//EDIT 2: Yeah, so it's 1.27% WS DPS and 4.83% AA DPS according to the calculator. Depending on the exact DPS weights of AA versus WS (I don't know for sure, I will estimate around 25% of damage is AA), you'd expect an overall increase in DPS of about 2.1-2.2% in exchange for the 507 HP.

That is a better way of describing it. I was just so excited I didn't waste all that gil making my equipment. I forgot how critical the community could be at times. I'll place your comment in OP

Yup, still not worth the DPS drop in my opinion. Especially if the team is barely getting past turn 1, then there are significantly more important problems than DPS having enough HP.